You also have to keep in mind that there are DA clubs and there are DA clubs. Like my son plays for a DA team, and in his age group (born 2002) there are basically 4 teams right now that are handily above the rest (two being academies with professional teams, two being large well-established clubs), a bunch around the middle, and a couple bottom feeders who are borderline DA quality at all. I've definitely seen better non-DA teams and players in this age group than some of the DA teams, one local team in particular that looks more toward Mexico so probably wouldn't bother with becoming a DA club but that could definitely compete at this level. But the feeling at DA games and events is very much unlike any other I've been associated with in youth soccer. Yes, everybody is trying to win, but it's not as cutthroat and there's often a sense of congeniality between opposing coaches that's really refreshing, as the goal really is player development. And coaches who violate that by, say, playing a longball game when they have the skill to play out of the back, quickly get a bad reputation. We recently attended the DA showcase down in LA and it was by far the best youth soccer experience we've had, with a very high quality in general and an excellent job matching clubs at similar levels so everybody got the most appropriate competition possible. There was nothing like you find at many tournaments, with some coach/club trying to pad its resume by competing at a lower level than is appropriate for them. Plus while there we got to watch the U-15/16 RSL vs. LA Galaxy academy league game, and it felt like watching a professional match, just fantastic quality and intensity. There's a player on RSL's academy who up until last year played for my son's club, and there's no resentment toward him for moving up the ladder, more a sense of pride. That to me is the kind of attitude we need to strive for.
Clubs represented tonight at 2003 and 2002 NTC were from as far as Rockford, Bourbonnais (Illinois), Milwaukee, Madison (Wisconsin) Bettendorf (Iowa) and Crown Point (Indiana). Not exactly major markets. All players outside the DA. At the end of it all, not a single player was collectively agreed upon by scouts as being a YNT player. Scouts were anywhere from D1 college coaches, to current YNT staff, to US Soccer Technical Directors, to staff coaches in and outside the DA. But hey, who knows, maybe US Soccer will allocate resources to setting up a NTC with 9 paid staff members, rent top facilities, and provide top-class equipment in Middle of Nowhere, IL just for you. And it won't be invite only, so anyone is welcome to attend. That sounds like the best use of resource and perfect environment to find the next YNT player. So much butthurt. And this whole thread is about clubs that use that Presidents Cup title as a means to influence the mis-informed, and sometimes flat-out lie to members. Based on @VolklP19 previous statements, that's why he's so angry and bent out of shape. My input is about those that influence in the soccer community. Again, comes back to manipulating the misinformed (what this thread is about). You can use your experiences in small-town travel soccer, make your opinions about the DA while not actually being involved in it on any level, go on and win the Illinois Presidents Cup and MRL First Division Green, and at the end of the day go home and feel good about it. Just don't go tell people that your child/team/club is the best because of it. That's what this whole thread is about. But you keep fighting the system and ignore reality, keep an ear open to the hearsay from other butthurts and form opinions about things you know nothing about. Best of luck.
I'm not trying to join this war of words, but I do have a question about the above. Couldn't the same statement about not "being a YNT player" be made about 99% of the DA players as well? Whether they are YNT players, today, doesn't seem like the right question to ask. The right question would seem to be whether they are good enough to be DA players and, if so, what does it mean to have the DA missing out on those players. (For one thing, whether a player is currently deemed good enough to be a YNT player may be the wrong question since only a small handful of even the YNT players go on to the USMNT and many USMNT players come from outside the YNT set up, but that's beside the point.) I wonder how many of the players at last night's tryout were good enough to be in the DA and, of those, how many would be in each quartile of the DA. If we are missing out on some DA players but only bottom quartile DA players, maybe it's not such a big loss. But if you are finding lots of top half or top quartile players outside the DA, that indicates a problem to me.
You know you often take a lot of liberties. I clearly have explained that is not the case - even in this thread. You've also been provided plenty of examples of what it's like "up here" but refuse to accept that. As far as the national championship - you're simply not getting it. It is an example of what adifferentperspective is discussing - and no one is getting angry or upset. You are just assuming something that isn't there. And you're taking this way too personal. This is a discussion about the status of youth soccer and lack of autonomy. It's a discussion about tournaments that are un-necessary and costly - when teams can spend less and travel less for more meaningful experiences. You clearly are not getting it and instead getting all pissy. You're welcome to believe in what you want but when you generalize - put words into peoples mouth and assume with little experience, it makes moving the conversation forward a pointless effort.
Again - I have no issues. Initially I was annoyed but my kids are out of that mess in the NW and firmly enjoying themselves in a programs that impact them on the field and off it - with 2 different clubs no less which is one reason I said - look for a coach, not a program until it is crucial based on resources - if your players wants to and can play at a high level. If parents want to piss away their money - they are more then welcome. I don't have money to toss off without doing a little bit of homework.
That all sounds wonderful, if not a bit snarky there at the end…but hope nobody misses the point that you moved the goalpost just a bit…At no point, did I say that there are a bunch of YNT caliber players floating around in rural American or outside the DA markets… What I actually said, was there was a lot of equivalent talent to much of what happens to be in the DA program, especially on the lower end (relatively speaking) of the talent spectrum…the kids who aren’t going pro, the kids who aren’t making national teams, kids who will just go on to play college ball somewhere… This isn’t conspiracy…there is nothing to be butthurt over…it is just the simple economic and geographic reality of the DA program casting a somewhat shallow net…. Once again, I got nothing against the DA program or those that have the opportunity to be part of it…if I lived in a DA market and had the opportunity, damn straight I would take advantage of it… Yes, I understand what this thread is about…and along those lines, there seems to be this assumption that anyone who celebrates, markets or takes pride in a lower level accomplishment (like say the President’s Cup) ONLY does so to either a) mislead or lie to its membership or potential members or b) because they are ignorant and misinformed. Maybe I am just naïve, or maybe I am just not a cynical as some of you to believe that to the extent that some of you do… This might indeed be more a problem with newbie parents at the lower age groups, but continue to struggle with idea that any marginally experienced, involved competitive /club soccer parent isn’t conceptual aware of the idea that there are different levels of completion …State Cup vs. President’s Cup, Gold vs Silver, 1st Division vs 5th Division, etc… In any case, who’s permission do these clubs, teams, kids and parents need before they are allowed to celebrate these lesser accomplishment? Or maybe you think these lower level opportunities for smaller, less stacked clubs/teams shouldn’t exist at all… Butthurtness works both way…there would seem to a fine line between the altruistic concerns about the “lies” other clubs or influencers supposedly tell and the more selfish concern of protecting one’s own brand and status… The anger and resentment in Volk’s tone and your white knight defense of it just seems overdone and misplaced…
Our club had one of our second level teams win Presidents Cup National Title. I know for a fact that as a result at least one player (my neighbor) ended up with mutiple D1 scholarship offers. Top tier D1 - no, but multiple offers for certain from several areas of the country. Parents said the contact came immediately after the tournament and was a direct result of it. So for them money well spent.
What makes the Presidents Cup so un-necessary? Every sport I have ever heard of, both professional and amateur, has different levels or tiers of competition… Assuming DA is the top tier…State Cup the 2nd…isn’t their room for a 3rd tier? What exactly makes something pointless? Isn’t it all relative and bit subjective? If you are really a pro prospect, then sure, anything besides DA is pointless… If you are chasing a D1 scholarship, then sure, anything lower then State Cup (or equivalent) is probably pointless… But if you are not looking pass high school or maybe thinking/hoping lower level college, then couldn’t the President Cup have some value? In any case, not all clubs/teams have the player pool nor the resources to compete with the “big boys” at the highest levels…and trust me for those in that boat, I am pretty sure we all know it… I am thankful for every Chicagoland team, as second rate and corrupt as they may be in your eyes, that the competes in the President’s Cup and us give downstate yokels a handful of meaningful experiences… may I have some more porridge please…
DA clubs in attendace were: Chicago Fire, Campton United, FC United, and Sockers FC. Naturally, the local clubs...wouldn't make sense for SLSG, Indy Fire, etc. to scout because its not like a player will drive from Milwaukee to St. Louis for soccer. Campton does not yet have a U13/14 DA, so they couldn't take players even if they wanted to. 6 players in the camp were from DA clubs but not currently on DA rosters (second team players). 4 of the 6 were universally considered top of the field player pool, one caused some head-scratching as to why he was not DA, but in conversation with a scout from his club we found out it was an ongoing behavioral issue and he will at some point move into the team. One more was top 10. The 6th was a goalkeeper (1 of 2 invited). In short, second team players were considered the top players at the camp. This goes to show the difference in levels of play that so many people don't understand. I admit, using the YNT as an example was a bit exaggerated, but this is what I mean. Keep in mind the selection process for the camp. All players were selected directly by US Soccer or DA reps after seeing them in their competitive environment, whether that be local league, tournament, camp, etc.. For example, this fall I've scouted NISL Premiership, YSSL, IYSA State Premiership games, the Valspar Invitational, Nike Classic Cup, and Libertyville Octoberfest at ages 2005 to 2003. I know for a fact there were scouts at Eclipse Fall Classic as well. All sanctioned league competitions in my market, and what would be considered the top local tournament events. There were teams from all over the region in the tournaments. Overall trend: top players/teams came from "major" markets or more populated areas. Say what you want about it being unfair to the small market, or the "net isn't cast wide enough", but ask yourself: having finite resources, would you open a diamond mine in an area that has no evidence of producing diamonds? Back to the conversation at hand. Again, congrats on the Presidents Cup/MRL, by all means enjoy it. I honestly don't care. What I care about is those who use that to mislead. This is a major issue in our market (Chicagoland).
Well, yeah, that would seem statistically logical and expected…almost self-evident... First (for maybe the 7th time), I am not calling on the DA to cast their net wider…I understand and accept the limitation of doing so…I really don’t know how many times I have to say that before it sinks in to you… Nor is this about diamonds, per say…it’s about coal…no reason to go coal mining hours and miles away, when you got plenty of it laying around in your own backyard… Given the player population the greater Chicago area, there is zero reason for those DA Clubs to go looking for comparable talent beyond its immediate area of operations… obviously there plenty of very good talent for those DA to accomplish their mission/purpose without trucking in comparable talent from downstate….and I am no anyway suggesting they should… All I am saying is that comparable talent, on an individual level, does exist downstate…maybe not at the highest “diamond” level, and that talent is certainly spread out more, but it does exist…if you think or claim the DA Clubs perfectly captures all the top talent in Illinois, then you’re the one stretching and denying the truth… I am not trying to disparage or criticize the DA system by pointing this out…but if that’s how you take it, I don’t know what to tell ya…
Ok, one of my many less endearing qualities is the tendency to beat the horse to death, and I think this horse is a bloody mess by this point… So, with the sincere hope of move on and pass… Accepting the premise that dishonest clubs, especially in the Chicagoland area, misrepresent their lower tier accompaniments as something more than they are, what is the solution? What are you guys proposing? I have half-jokingly suggested that you guys want do away with these lower-level completions and leagues…it that really what you are suggesting?
Interesting thread. I saw the end of the 03 group and the beginning of the 02 group. There was an 02 there that was on the NT all last year, I was surprised to see him there. Is that typical? I was also struck by the size difference amongst the 03s, obviously an interesting age. I pointed out one kid in particular but a friend whose son was in attendance noted that the roster for the event listed one kid was a 2005, and suspected that was him. Is it unusual to have players playing up in those types of events?
Different event, but in the DA Showcase I mentioned above, my son's team (2002) played a team that had an absolutely tiny kid out there, like well under 5 feet with a little baby face, if I saw that kid on the street I'd assume he was maybe 10. So I have no idea if he was playing up, but I sure as hell hope so. Oh, and we thought he was the best player on that team. VERY skilled, smart, and engaged, if he had the size he would've just been destroying out there.
There was one 2005 with the 2003s, and yes, that is unusual. He's been on the scouting radar for over a year now. Has *exceptional* physical and technical attributes for an 05, but (understandably) lacked game understanding. He will continue to be monitored as he matures. The 02 that was YNT for over a year is this "head-scratcher". Came back to Chicagoland from LA Galaxy DA/residency, had some issues with teammates that spilled over into the YNT. Subsequently ended up suspended from YNT. At Sockers now, but not yet registered in the DA. US Soccer had their inaugural "Futures Camp" last year, and will continue to host more, for players like this. Futures Camp is for players that are A) physically under-developed at the moment but having technical and cognitive abilities of a YNT player, or B) born later in the birth-year.
Makes sense about the 2005. Assuming he is the boy I am thinking I only saw him play briefly, and the size difference was striking because he was playing right back and was paired against someone that must have had 2 feet on him. He seemed to contain him though, and I was impressed that the couple times he was on the ball he managed to maintain possession by playing the simple pass. Clearly very comfortable on the ball. That's interesting and unfortunate about the 02. I was surprised when I heard he was back in the Chicago area. You hear such great things about the Galaxy academy, and following his stats it seemed he fit in there in terms of playing ability. Now it makes sense to me that they would move back if there were personal issues within the team/club.
This hits on something I think gets ignored too often--part of the problem with our youth soccer system is we essentially have two different, incompatible missions co-existing in the same system. Are we trying to provide a broad-based participatory structure, or a tightly focused developmental system? Do we want to create a system for kids who want to play soccer, or for those who are ambitious/talented enough to pursue the sport seriously? Both of those things are worthy goals. And they shouldn't be in conflict, in a perfect world. But too often, it seems to me clubs split the difference and do both poorly.
Except USSDA does not enforce this rule universally. My experience with DA has been limited, but incredibly eye opening. USSDA enforces their rules and guidelines selectively, so whatever standards they claim on their website are meaningless. For example, they allowed FCU to take over Magic Academy because the former Academy Director of Magic did not have an A license, although he was in the process of working towards it. At the very same time, they allowed a coach with a D license to gut an Academy team and replace it with his former players from another club who were related to the president of the board of FCU. Completely unethical and hypocritical, but the money and power was with FCU, so USSDA looked the other way. This was our experience at one club and may not reflect the majority of DA clubs. However, it doesn’t change the most significant aspect of the DA system and that is that they only play other DA teams. They don’t want to play outside of the DA system because that would expose their fundamental weakness: that they are not identifying and developing the best of the best. Of course, there are some very talented players on DA teams, but there are MANY talented players who aren’t even considered for a variety of reasons that have nothing to do with their skill and potential. The fact that the DA system is closed and a proven funnel for college scholarships is why parents are hyper focused on getting their kids onto a DA team. In our experience, parents have gone to great lengths to ensure those DA spots. Of course there are clubs that are ethical, but given the cost of travel soccer and the practicality of getting into a club at a young age, the pool of potential players is somewhat limited to wealthy families.
Let me be clear - I see no reason why any team should not compete in any tourney - afterall - more time on the ball is better then no time - or less time on the ball. The issue (which I thought I was clear - maybe not), was that it has been used by clubs to help drive a culture of mis-information - just like in some cases, ODP. Some of these clubs are activiely creating an environment by using this sort of play to make parents feel that their player is already at the top of the heap - and thusly needs not to look further - that there are no better coaches or opportunities for them. I can name 3 right off the top of my head - but in past conversations the Moderator asked us not to do this. Maybe you have no experience in this - but again, I assure you it happens. Maybe not a lot but it does in the NW suburbs of Chicago. My post prior - to you, highlighted - albeit sarcastically, one example where this happened and by no means is a claim that its universal or even happening in your area. Hope that clears it up.
I am not sure that is a widen of the net as much as a tightening the net…as I understand it, most of those new u12/13 clubs are already in established DA markets…for example, not a single Illinois “expansion” club is outside the greater Chicago area…
What are the reasons you refer to that talented players aren't being considered? Because if you're insinuating it's money that doesn't make much sense, because a DA club isn't necessarily any more expensive than a non-DA club (for example, my kid's club joined the DA this year and our costs stayed basically the same), and there are scholarships available for talented players who can't afford it at virtually all decent clubs, DA or not. And if a player is good enough to make a fully funded DA academy then costs are obviously much cheaper. And that's an interesting conspiracy theory that DA clubs only want to play each other because they'd be exposed outside of their own league. At least in my region it's not even remotely true, because the second teams of some of those DA clubs compete at that level (NPL) and do fine, so obviously their first teams would do even better. And the core of my son's team (pre-birth year realignment) won NorCal State Cup two years in a row, so they obviously did great at that level. I've definitely seen some non-DA teams that are superior to the lesser ones in our DA division, but some clubs just don't want to bother with the hassle of applying for DA membership and jumping through those hoops.
Not that it's perfect but FC United's model of bringing in multiple youth travel organizations seems interesting. They have Hawks, Titans, Trevian and now Spartans funneling top talent there way. The big part of that are DOC's accepting a culture of doing right by players who need more and coming to the reality that they may not be able to provide it - rather then keeping ringers to win games which is great for the team, fantastic marketing for the club, but does nothing for that player. Another component we may see with FC United and these clubs is whether continutity in terms of coaching style, development and maybe a push to keep coaches progressing with their own training/courses funels downward - ultimately raising the game for these smaller clubs. They (FCU) may be able to settle the area and build out meaniful play where other clubs have not. That's really the twist. Sockers took on Crystal Lake and Naperville but frankly I am not sure whether the home base is doing much to promote their presence and style of play in those areas. Seems to be up to the DOC's out there to make the best with what they have. If FCU is more resource heavy - they could grow and actually make the overall area better. One of the big problems - and I think this was mentioned in another thread is that anyoe can create a club - it's super easy, cheap and maintainable. I think that's one of the issues in some areas - TOO MANY clubs that are all out for retention and plunder. Those clubs are willing to blur reality to keep players and parents happy.
I would not consider Campton close enough to many other DA's. FC United is there because they replace Magic essentially. I may assue that the net was not thrown THAT for out there because they may just be using the expansion to wet the beaks of players and parents to eventually get them in to a smaller - more manageble group (Sockers/Fire/FCU) at the older DA ages. Of course some argue that the expansion is just a test - that if all goes well, clubs like Campton will get a full DA. Either way Campton opens the door to players further south and west that would never go to Fire/Sockers/FCU.
My point about the cost applies to all travel clubs. It's cost prohibitive for many people. Who gets chosen for a U12 Academy team? The vast majority will be kids who have played competitive travel soccer for a few years already. Many families can't afford to spend thousands of dollars on a travel team year after year. In our experience, the players on the top teams at competitive clubs are also expected to participate in national tournaments and additional training, which further increases the cost. With regards to the Academy system being closed, I believe DA teams can now participate in the Dallas and Surf cups, so it will be interesting to see how that plays out. But my impression is that the DA system is very closed, at least in Chicago. They don't compete against non-DA teams, even if other teams within their club do.