Would you all be in favor of Rangers/Celtic joining the English Football system?

But the bulk of Gartsides argument was to expand the Premier league, and curtail (axe?) promotion and relegation. Thus protecting Boltons position. Especially considering the current position of Bolton...

Including Rangers and Celtic was because they ARE big clubs, and help divert people away from Bolton.

 

I'm not disputing that. All I'm saying is, it's not always down to Celtic or Rangers when this story re-occurs.

Of course, when asked, what would you expect them to say?

If someone asked me would I like to be the next national lottery winner I wouldn't be struggling for an answer.

 

I dont deny the ambition of Rangers and Celtic to jump at the opportunity to compete at a higher stage. Lets face it, apart from "The Big Two" the top flight Scottish clubs would, at best, be duking it out with (ironically) the likes of Bolton! Problem is, I am not sure that the ramifications of a move have really been thought through completely. I am sure they have been able to do the financial calculations for such a move, but there are wider implications. Such as genuinely English clubs losing out European slots to Scottish clubs, Scotland getting more entries into Europe than Scottish football deserves...

 

That's not xenophobic in any way at all.

Scotland did want it's own Parliament, which you now have. And your Old Firm football clubs do want to join the English football league. This is the truth, not some racist or xenophobic opinion of mine.

I just find it highly ironic that, as a nation, Scotland fought for a long time to distance itself from England, and whenever our national teams play, I've never once heard a kind word said about England from a Scottish supporter, yet distance is the last thing they want now there's something in it for them. Despite all the acrimony and history btween the two nations, they now want to participate in our league set-up and benefit from it's financial muscle. All I'm saying is that it's amazing how selective people can be when there's gold at the end of the rainbow.

No he's not, but the over all point of his plan was all about self-presrvation anyway, kind of discredits it really. With no relegation from the LP, and no promotion from the CCC, his clubs participation in the EPL would be sealed for ever.

Whilst the idea of the Old Firm playing in England is novel, it brings with it far too many issues, and leaves far too many behind. The Old Firm would be best working with the Scottish FA and the SPL to get their own house in order, rather than attempt to move into someone elses.

 

You're muddling the two issues. I don't think the presence of Canadian teams in US leagues in any way has anything to do with Canadian autonomy. Like Wales, it's more a matter of the better teams being able to compete at a higher level. Given the presence of Welsh teams in the league and the fact that Scotland is part of the United Kingdom, the English league is the obvious starting point in finding a more competitive competition. The Atlantic league several years ago was another idea bandied about. They are really just the ideas of two football clubs in search of a better place to remain as competitive as possible.

Is there a large enough player pool for this? It seems the teams would get watered down and you would end up with an overall inferior league. Either that or the disparity between first and last, or even third and last would be much bigger than most larger leagues.

 

In a non football sense, you should have a read at The McCrone report and see how well the underlined statements above sit then...

The McCrone Report

I'm certain there is. There really isn't that big a gap between the bottom four or five teams in the SPL and the top four or five in division 1. St Johnstone and Hamilton before them don't look out of place in the SPL. Dundee, current leaders of the first division have more money than about 6 or 7 teams in the SPL at this minute in time.

Increasing the size of the league will remove some of the staleness that inevitably comes into play by playing teams three or four times a season. It will also help remove the fear factor for a lot of teams, allowing them to play a more expansive game and blood youngsters earlier without having to worry over every single dropped point.

But the smaller teams wont agree to it. They want the money from the home games against the two big Glasgow teams. They don't want others getting a slice of their pie.

But all Scottish footballs ills are because of the two big, bad bullys from Glasgow...

 

The idea was to have a two tier Premier League with limited promotion from the divisions below that. It's not just a Bolton issue as more than half the Premier League, and most of the Championship are in the same boat as us.

 

They are, but promotion and relegation has been the foundations upon which the football league has been built on for decades. If clubs cannot realistically gain promotion into the top teer, what incentive is there for them to keep trading, to keep competing, to keep trying to progress and develop?

Whilst Gartside's idea might have had some credit to it, it was too obviously beneficial to his own club, and it undermines the values which make the football league tick, in my opinion. Not mention the upset and furore it would cause if the Old Firm were just "added" into the equation.

 

Cannot compare Canada and this issue. The Canadian teams that play in predominantly US based leagues operate in a closed shop league. There is not promotion into, or relegation from the MLS, or the NHL. Or any of the others. Once you are in, you are in. Also, whilst MLS clubs do have international competition to be part of, its not at the same level as access to European competition is. Scottish clubs in the English league does threaten to see England lose slots to a neighbour who does not warrant them.

The Welsh clubs are in the English league because when they where formed, there was no Welsh league, and the initial idea was to form a British league. Only for the Scots to run off and set up their own league. In an age before the Champions league, the Welsh clubs basically just, stayed.

The limited promotion would be kept to virtually nil. We all know that. By forming a 2 tier league Bolton and the other clubs would lose "some" money should they be in the PL 2 league, but that drop would be nowhere like the drop down to the CCC.

 

overall, you could easily conclude that the move to a small premier league is the 1970s was a failure. It marginalised smaller sides by relegating them, and turned clubs that had been "top half" clubs into mid-table or struggling clubs.

yet the crazy thing is they'd gain most from it. Maybe not in immediate cash returns, but for fans, it has to be better to support a mid table club in a division of 16 than support a struggler in a division of 12.

 

But from a footballing sense it brings too many question and potential problems, not to mention that I've yet to meet many fans of EPL clubs who'd happily welcome the Old Firm into the EPL to begin with.

 

Fair enough. I think we're all discussing a moot point anyway because I can see no chance of it happening anytime soon.

It's a fanciful idea that really needs to be put to bed once and for all. Although I'm aware with the way the media works in this country, that's never going to happen.

 

I wasn't making a case for or against Scottish teams entering the English league. I was pointing out what I saw as an apples and oranges argument. The implication in the post I responded to was that wanting Scottish teams to enter the English league and also favoring Scottish independence/ autonomy/nationalism was somehow hypocritical or contradictory. I wasn't in any way comparing the English league structure to the MLS. I was pointing out that a team from one country entering or wanting to enter a team in another country's league has nothing to do with a desire for greater governmental autonomy or independence.

 

I'm kind of conflicted about this. On one hand, they'd be competitive, middle of the pack teams. On the other hand, they're an established part of the SPL. So, I guess that my answer is no, I'd rather they stay where they are.

 

There is this attempt to prevent sport and politics from mixing, but they usually do. The problem here is, you have 2 proud Scottish clubs, who fly the flag (For Rangers, literally, seeing as they have the Scottish saltire on the kit!) for their nation. But they want to leave their own nations football setup, and move...

I understand the commercial aspect of it all, and the appeal. After all, if they (eventually) join the EPL, they would have games against Liverpool, Manchester United, Chelsea and Arsenal, Aston Villa... All far more appealing names than they have in the Scottish league.

There is a feeling of some in Scotland wanting to have their cake and eat it. in football terms, Scotland and England are wholly separate entities, treated as independent nations, even though politically, they are not. Yet, even with Scotland gaining more and more autonomy, the 2 big clubs are willing to jump ship and move to Englands league. For the vast majority of us in England, it just does not sit right. As far as I am aware, pretty much all polling done on this has shown a resounding attitude against them joining our league.

Whilst Scottish fans following Scotland enjoy an excellent reputation, that reputation is not shared by the fans of Rangers and Celtic, where there is a strong sectarian undercurrant. Whilst the clubs have been successful in squashing down on it, it is still there, flaring up on a regular basis. The most vivid memory was the actions of some in the Rangers community in Manchester . The public TV broke. These things happen. But rather than wait to see if the engineers could fix it, no, a better idea is to pelt the engineers with bottles. Who not surprisingly leave, and the TV stays broke.

I am not saying English fans are angels, far from it. But, given that both clubs have a minority who a strongly anti-anyone from outside, we just dont see why we should bring them in!

 

I'm aware of everything you say. I've been following English football since the mid 70s, have a British passport and have spent years of my life in England (and two rather glorious weeks in Scotland about 25 years ago). Basically my point is that yes, a group of people wanting independence and greater autonomy, and the group of people pushing for the Old Firm to join the English league have some overlapping, but the two can't really be lumped together as one movement and making statements that the same people want independence on one hand and want to join the English league on the other isn't really an accurate statement. Obviously it's not exactly the same, but I don't see Barcelona's large scale Catalonian support for their team in the Spanish league as having anything to do with the large scale support for Catalonian independence/greater autonomy.

I'll admit I'm being rather petty at nickpicking over a small element of logic that was chosen. For what it's worth, I think the whole idea is really not worth raising because it's impossible from so many different angles, not to mention that it adds an element that is commonplace and accepted in US sports (league mergers/new franchise) but detracts from the tradition and magic of European leagues and sets a precedent for moving away from that tradition much the way that the Wimbledon/Milton Keynes move did.

 

This is the most important part of any objection. It simply raises too many problems, from a footballing point of view.

 

no,that totally would disturb the english system !

 

Hi,
Will be better to see Celtic and/or Rangers in the EPL. It will add a lot of colors, rivaries and all that, but on the other hand I dont think the English system will allow that. Talking soccer-wise, ofcourse they can replace teams such as Pompy and Hull, it would have been great.

 

The scots aye are filthy barbaric animals, you let celtic and rangers in, then prepare for braveheart in England everytime one of these sporran kilt wearing clubs visit.
be it on your heads english if you let them in, on your heads, and your children s children s heads.

 

Imagine the outcry if someone had made a similar remark about pakis or blacks...

 

True.

Still he's obviously clueless so I'm sure after reading the drivel he's posted you'll be the same as me in not giving it a second thought.

 

Australia is full of criminals anyway.

 

That's fitting, seeing as I have an Australian passport

 

theres alot more in england than down here

you fail at life.