Would Argentina have won the 1986 World Cup if Pele in place of Maradona?

You cannot possibly consider that an assist...

 

Pele 70 not a chance, Pele 58 I have no idea. Only ones who I can see winning with Argentina 86 are Kempes 78 and Messi 14, because they are almost identical performance's, just emphasized in a different phases of the tournament.

 

PDG 1978, FIFA TechnicalStudy'sGroup is responsible for awarding assist point sat the FIFA World Cup.
In the Technical Study's Group report on the 1986 world cup,the authors calculated for the first time unofficial statistics for assists, developing the following criteria:
1.An assist is awarded to the player who had given the last pass to the goalscorer.
2.Also the last buy two holder of the ball could get an assist provided that his actionhad decisive importance for the goal.
3.After goals from rebound those players were awarded an assist who had shot on target.
4.After goals scored on penalty or by adirectly free-kick,the fouled player receive a point.(in 1990 World cup , technical report changed the free-kick,penalty criterion)
5.In case that the goalscorer had laid on the goal for himself(dribble,solo run)no assists were awarderd.
6.No assists were awarder, either, if the goalscorer took the adnantage of a missed pass by the opponent.
SOURCE WIKIPEDIA.

if you count as an assist this pass from Pele, then Henrique assisted Maradona's second goal against England in 1986.

 

Hmm, ok - fair enough. My understanding of assists was always as a factual 'last pass before the goal' kind of thing rather than using qualitative judgements about the goal. Fantasy Football always used to work that way IIRC. But if the official FIFA assists don't work that way then I can understand why you didn't list (I just thought you'd accidentally omitted it or been unaware of it before). Interestingly, I'm not sure assists used to be (or still are?) awarded for number 3 in Fantasy Football (although maybe actions like Laudrup vs Uruguay where the goalie just gets a touch and Elkjar scores would still count?) and only for penalties re: number 4 IIRC.

How does number 2 work for this Jairzinho goal though? If two assists can be awarded, then why not an assist and yet recognition of a solo dribble? Without the pass the dribble doesn't happen (although the dribble is still the main factor in the goal).

 

Yeah, this page still doesn't mention that rule (so my background re: assists in fantast games would lead me to see that Pele pass as an assist basically):

https://www.fantasyleague.com/Classic/GameGuide/Scoring.aspx

Generally, assists are awarded to the team-mate who provided the last 'clean pass' to a goalscorer. A clean pass is defined as a pass, cross or shot that goes directly to the goalscorer without the intervention of another player.
Once there is a measure of interference from another player (be it a team-mate or an opponent) then the assist may be taken away (in the case of significant defensive intervention), or additional assists added (in the case of a flick-on by a team-mate).
What happens if an opposition player gets a touch on the ball?
If the last touch is by an opposing player (accidental or otherwise) and significantly alters the speed or direction of the ball (excluding a goal-line clearance) then the assist is removed and no assist is credited. This could result from a defensive deflection, a blocked shot, a dodgy back-pass or a poor clearance.
The Specifics
Assists are most commonly removed for significant changes in direction on a horizontal plane and not for changes in height. The Fantasy League Assist Panel will remove an assist for a significant direction change if any televised angle confirms any one of the below factors to be true:

• A touch from another player allows the goalscorer to receive the ball when they would not have been able to otherwise.
  
• The touch means the goalscorer has to dramatically alter the direction or speed of which they are running (either making or halting a run). For example having to take a stride backwards rather than a slide forwards. Or if the player received a the ball on an opposite side. i.e. in-front/behind or to their left rather than their right side.
  
• The touch means that the goalscorer receives the ball in a different area of the pitch, affecting the goal scoring chance that they are then presented with.
  A change of speed will also result in the removal of assists if it is significant in the following ways:
  • A touch changes the speed enough to obviously remove/add the need for a first touch.
    
  • The change of speed means the goalscorer has to dramatically alter the direction or speed of which they are running.
    While in most instances height changes are not taken into consideration, a dramatic change of height could also be judged as a significant change of speed, given the additional time the ball takes to reach the goalscorer, when the above principals are considered. –
    Futhermore, the position of other players is not taken into account when deciding upon assists. Instead a comparison is made between the direction the ball was originally heading (before the offending touch) and where it ended up in relation to the goalscorer.
    Benefit of the doubt
    If there is not sufficient evidence or enough available television angles to confirm that any of the above requirements apply, then the attacking player will be given 'the benefit of the doubt' and the assist awarded. This principal is often applied to immediate deflections when the exact direction in which the original ball was heading is not clear.
    Goalkeeping parries
    If a goalkeeper parries a shot or drops a shot/ or cross and a goal is then scored then the person making the original shot or cross is awarded an assist. There is no assist given if the goalkeeper punches or kicks (not including a save with his feet) the ball away, the difference being that he is deemed to be in control of his actions and, no matter how pathetic the attempt, has cleared the ball away. If the goalkeeper catches and has control of the ball then, this also removes any assist.
    It's off the line!
    If a defender makes a goal-line clearance and it is then turned in, an assist is awarded in the same way that it is awarded for a goalkeeping parry. This only happens with goal-line clearances and when the defender is as close, or closer to the goal-line than the goalkeeper. It does not apply to shots blocked in front of the goalkeeper.
    The 'last pass to goalscorer' rule
    If the defensive interference occurs after the goalscorer has already received the ball from a team-mate (after a 'clean' pass) then the assist will stand, as the assist is given for the final pass to the goalscorer. For example, if Juan Mata feeds the ball to Wayne Rooney on the edge of the box and Rooney shoots, but his shot hits a defender rebounding straight back to him, then on the second attempt he scores, Mata will still be awarded an assist, as the goalscorer (in this case Rooney) had already received the ball before the deflection occurred. The Fantasy League Assists Panel applies a 'five second' rule to this situation, starting when the goalscorer loses the ball until he gets it back following the defensive intervention.
    He's hit the bar!
    A player who has a shot which comes off the woodwork and rebounds back to the goalscorer will be deserving of an assist.
    Penalties
    When a penalty is awarded, a player fouled earns an assist if the penalty is subsequently converted.
    If the penalty is for a handball on a goal-bound shot (which has already passed the goalkeeper), then the player taking the shot is awarded the assist. No assist is awarded for a handball that is not a goal-line clearance.
    If the player earning the assist also scores the resulting penalty then no assist is given.
    If a goalkeeper parries a penalty and the penalty taker scores from the rebound then the assist remains as above. If a different player converts the rebound then the penalty taker gets the assist.
    Free-kicks
    There is no assist given to a player earning a direct free kick if a goal arises directly from it.
    What happens if a team-mate gets a slight touch on the ball (flick-ons and double assists)?
    If the last touch before the goalscorer receives the ball is from his own team mate but does not significantly alter the speed or direction of the ball then two (or more - in the event of a flick-on of a flick-on) separate assists are given. One to the person providing the ball and one to the attacker providing the flick on. These typically occur as a result of near post corners, long throw-ins and goal-kicks.
    Again the determining factor in whether two or more assists are awarded is whether or not the additional touch (the flick-on) has a significant impact on the direction of ball on a horizontal plane. Any change of height is not taken into consideration unless it effects the timing taken to reach the goalscorer (and applied as the speed).
    Thus a flat corner driven in at head height towards the near post, flicked on to the back post by an attacking player, where it is nodded over the line, would attract two assists. However, an in-swinging corner to the near post, headed outwards to the edge of the six-yard-box, from where it is turned home, would result an assist only being awarded to the attacking player making the second touch - as the headed intervention changes the horizontal direction of the ball by a significant amount.
    Own Goals
    In the event of an own goal, the last player from the attacking team to touch the ball (e.g. from a cross or shot) is awarded the assist. However, if the ball takes two or more significant deflections off defenders before going into the net, then no assist is awarded.
    Deciding on assists
    Assists are awarded by virtue of a decision from the highly experienced Fantasy League Assists Panel. The decisions of the panel are in line with the framework laid out above in order to maintain consistent adjudication. However, if you still have a query about an assist please send us an email using the Contact Us page. Decisions made by Fantasy League are final.

 

PDG 1978, criterion number 2 : the last buy two holder of the ball could get an assist provider that his action had decisive importance for the goal.
Do you really believe, Pele's action( pass to Jairzinho) had decisive importancefor the goal? honestly i don't, and as it written in criterion number 5, Jairzinho's goal is a dribble, solo run goal.

 

Well, if he balloons the pass out of play the goal doesn't happen. But yeah, the pass is straight to Jairzinho but he does need to check and then dribble rather than being played clean through. You can understand that I never knew about that rule number 5 though (or it never applied to the Fantasy Football game that first introduced me to the concept of an assist - previously people would just talk about who set the goal up, what happened in the move and who was involved etc - the assists were to give some definitive points in a fantasy game I thought although of course I knew they were a big thing in Ice Hockey etc)?

 

PGG 1978, iam talking accordind to official FIFA Technical Study's Group's, criteria, not Fantasy 's League.
In the end FIFA'S criteria , are those that have importance.

 

It's interesting though. When I made this video I noted assists, and because I didn't show the headed pass for goal 6 and wasn't sure of who did it I didn't note it. But with the FIFA rules I'm sure it wouldn't be an assist anyway:

But, goal 22 has an assist? I would say yes, but then where to draw the line (if Pele's pass is not an assist)?
I didn't note assists for winning free-kicks either of course, but did show on the next part a couple where the plays leading to the free-kicks are shown.

 

Ok, like I say that's fair enough. I'm just explaining why I thought it was an assist mate. Thanks.

 

Of course Maradona assisted Caniggia vs Brazil in 1990, but technically Caniggia did dribble round the goalkeeper. I guess Maradona's action including dribbling/moving past the Brazilians would always be considered enough for an assist though, even if Caniggia had dribbled past a couple of defenders (which is hypothetical as he only needed to go round the goalie).

 

PGG 1978, of course i understand man. We just talking , and had an argument. Nothing serious.

 

I did wonder whether number 5 meant actually that there had to be a clean pass otherwise the player laid the goal on for himself. But no, I do think it must mean if there is an extensive dribble run then there is no assist given. And fair enough, as the pass just becomes like a regular pass which isn't the last for a team goal I suppose (plays a part, but not the crucial/end bit).

On that video I posted, goal 4 almost becomes debateable though I suppose depending on the definition of solo run. The action of the chip would not matter though I suppose and neither the actions of Beckham/Rivaldo when passes had happened before they scored from half-way (the rule seems to cover dribbles and not long-range wonder goals etc, so the passers would still have received assists I guess - not only for clean passes in Fantasy Football but also by FIFA):

 

Yeah, like I say it's interesting to find out about that rule. And as the World Cup is a FIFA competition it is understandable from my side why you use their rules.

 

if you ask me, i believe that goal number 22, has an assist, and number six 6 not.
The point is, if the action (pass) from the last player who touch the ball, to the goalscorer is decisive.
In goal number 22 is decisive, in number 6 isn't.

 

Yes, I guess that's how FIFA would see it too. For goal 4 I'm pretty sure they give an assist and as far as I can see they would for the passes to Rivaldo and Beckham too.

 

PGG 1978, as you said, iam using FIFA criteria's in World cups, in national league(Premier League, La Liga, Serie A,etc) or in Champions League, maybe thera are different criteria.

 

From watching compilations of Pele I think he had the individualism to emulate what Maradona did in 86. Look at the goal against Mexico in 62 or the run against Uruguay in 70 that should have been a penalty. I have seen clips of him dribbling past 4 men and winning penalties. He would have provided a threat with his heading ability and offered more defensively with his tough tackling.

 

Pele was more complete, more effective, more dominant, more regular and more successful than Maradona, he would have no problem winning the 1986 World Cup, as would Di Stefano or Messi.

 

To answer shortly, yes he would, so would have hundreds of other great players in football history if circumstances were just right for them.. there is no such thing as single-handedly in football.

 

no