Back to the topic: - Stats said Pele was a monster in WC final games: 3goals+3ass over 2 FINAL WC70 and 58 - Stats said Maradon was struggling at 2 WC finals: 1ass /2 Final games (besides his 2 great so lo run in 86) HUGE difference! However, take to account that Maradona had a lower supporting cast, that difference became smaller ... but still a DIFFERENCE in performance!
Did you watch the 86 World Cup final? Maradona was huge. Not only he had a role in all three goals, including the all important spectacular pass in the last one right after Germany tied it, but he basically took Lothar Matthaus out of the game, which turned out to be a huge key strategically, with Burruchaga stepping into the gap and having the best game of his career. He couldn't do it in 1990, but you have to consider that he was injured and by the time the final came around his ankle had a swelling the size of a tennis ball. He only played because he was Maradona and he couldn't be denied, but he was going to be limited in what he could do. PS: I was going to write that he had a "hand" in all three goals, but that would be too cruel to the English.
Look I already said despite of the "huge difference" in STATS, the true difference is SMALL. At WC90, I agreed that Maradona was not 100% fit, but it was not like he crippled. He was still able to run and jump high like a horse, OK? But still I am reasonable and said he was not 100% fit, may be 80+% Now did you watch Maradona at WC82 ???? and did you really watch Pele at 4 WCs? I do not want to turn in to another thread, but Pele was just TOO DECISIVE and TOO EFFICIENT (more if not much more than Maradona in BIG GAMES. But I still rate Maradona was a rare individual talent as the best in ball skills (slightly better than Pele in this category ball control and dribbling)
Considering how Pele did in WC66 with a Brazil that was still better but a more similar team to Argentina of WCs 86 and 90, it is very doubtful he would have done much with the Argentina of WC86.
So what happened in the big game against Portugal at WC66? Pele was also poor against England at WC70. I don't see Pele as being too decisive in big games, when Brazil won them by three goal differences: 5-2 and 4-1. Did Pele score a hat trick on each one?
You IGNORANT While Maradona ran adn JUMPED like a horse at WC90. Pele barely walked in that game 66. Fact said: Pele QUIT international football right after that violence WC to protest to FIFA. Eventually, FOFA then changed rules about substitution and issued Yellow cards to protect player at WC70. Thence Pele returned to Brazil to win his 3rd thre Pele assisted to the Jairzinho's wining gaol vs England OK? I mentioned this 2 times already!
Maradona's injury was just as bad, but he still carried the team to the final, even if there was some luck involved. The goal against England in WC70 is all Tostao's work.
Blinded and ignorant Maradona jumped and even attempt using a hand ball to compensate for his rise at WC90 (this time was much less infamous, ) Diego Maradona's most famous handball was against England in 1986 but he also handled the ball four years later, this time in his own box Now look at Pele at WC66 vs Portugal Even a CHILD could see the difference in FITNESS of the two except few ignorants
Blinded and ignorant Maradona jumped and even attempt using a hand ball to compensate for his rise at WC90 (this time was much less infamous, ) Diego Maradona's most famous handball was against England in 1986 but he also handled the ball four years later, this time in his own box Now look at Pele at WC66 vs Portugal 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 Even a CHILD could see the difference in FITNESS of the two except few ignorant people “Pelé would say that it was only when he saw the incident on film that he realised how bad it was. He would swear, then, never to play in a World Cup again. The indulgent, flaccid English referee, George McCabe, allowed Morais to stay on the field, so that now Portugal were playing against ten men”. Brian Glanville describing Morais’ vicious tackle on an already hobbled Pelé
Is ignorant your new favorite word? Why do you always get angry when someone disagrees with you? Anyways, Pele started WC66 fit but the fouling put him out. Maradona received the same kind of fouling in WCs 82, 86 and 90, but always finished the tournament playing, although for WC90 his ankle was in such shape it was recommended to him to quit.
it's always there in the dictionary when I talked facts, if someone disagree with the facts = ignorant When I sadi I think, then people can agree or disagree ... for different opinion It's not like I said I "think" Pele's fitness was much worse than Maradona 90 but FACT. Pele was so injured but could not leave the picth since no substitution allowed at time, and no prection law for player at time! Maradon indeed was able to play 90mins over 7games = HUGE difference
These "what if" scenarios are always interesting, but in the end, any "what if" thread that involves Pele & Maradona get too heated because Brazilians and Argentines both have too great a personal investment in their respective heroes. My take on it is that if Pele had been part of the 1986 Argentine national team, Argentina would have had a very good shot at the title. But Pele and Maradona did not play the same position. If anything, Pele as a starting forward alongside Jorge Valdano would have drawn defenses to him, thus giving Valdano more space. If Pele had been 30 years old in 1986, he would have been the age he was in Mexico 1970; Argentina's offensive line would have been automatically upgraded many if not dozens of notches from what it was (nothing personal against Pedro Pasculli). But Argentine playmaking would have suffered. During the 1986 World Cup, Diego attempted/created more than 50% of his team's shots on goal. Without him as the "brain" of his side (although he's not viewed as an "enganche" according to Argentine football terminology), the other midfielders of his team, nowhere as talented, would arguably not have supplied the shots or dangerous plays that resulted in real scoring chances. Pele's teammates in 1970 were superior than Maradona's in 1986, but the latter were still a solid group of players. What we saw in 1986 was that however central Maradona's role in his team's campaign, other players did contribute. Pasculli scored the lone goal against Uruguay. Maradona did score both of his team's goals against Belgium, but in the final, Brown, Valdano, and Burruchaga scored. The West Germans did a very good job of marking Maradona closely; Franz Beckenbauer knew that shutting Diego down was a must for his side to win the tournament. But to Diego's credit, it was a pass of his that resulted in Argentina's third goal. Would Pele have been equally marked had he been part of the starting lineup? Absolutely. Beckenbauer's tactical acumen was impeccable; he showed this again in Italy 4 years later (not only against Argentina in the final again). The West Germans would have piled players on Pele - but Pele's genius was such that a single play would have been enough for his talent to tilt the game towards his team's favor. Maradona himself showed this 4 years later against Brazil - a match which Brazil dominated throughout, to the extent Diego had to retreat and help mark the Brazilian midfield. As for 1966 - the violence Pele received in that tournament was worse than anything Diego received either in 1982, 1986, or 1990. Gentile's marking, while fierce, didn't get Diego carried off the pitch. In 1990, Diego was past his prime, but again, the beating Pele endured in England was far worse than anything Maradona faced. The Brazilian defenders of 1990 were never unsportsmanlike; ditto for the Yugoslavians, Italians, and West Germans of the later rounds or the Cameroonians, Soviets, and Romanians of the first round. Anyway - I rarely participate in these "what ifs" because however much fun it may be to speculate, that's all it is- speculation and nothing more. In the meantime, my team is beating Australia 3-0. Y'all enjoy your team's matches now.
I must say, that in my opinion Maradona was physically stronger than Pele. I don't know if it was his low center of gravity + his stocky body build, but in 1986 he was very difficult to take down. On the other hand, you could see Pele at the 1970 WC, a tournament that was played at snail pace, a tournament in which you had Pele looking like a body builder rather than a football player, Pele physically bigger and bulkier than he'd ever been in his peak years, and yet, Pele was not difficult to take down? I mean, he fell down rather easily, even though the tackles were neither brutal nor excessive, even though the game was played at a rather nail-biting slow pace. Maradona, in my opinion, had to endure tougher treatment, at a notably faster pace, in 1986, and he was very difficult to take down. Not to mention, that Maradona in 1986, although stocky, was nowhere near as "muscular" as Pele was in 1970. I think this is clear evidence, of Maradona's great physical strength and balance. This is an aspect of Maradona's game that I feel is often overlooked. So anyways, to answer the question of the thread: no, I don't think Pele could have won the WC with Argentina 1986. I don't think Pele had the physical strength, to single-handedly take all those tackles, and still come out playing and scoring goals. It is well known that Pele severely attacked at least two defenders in his career, those two defenders ended up with broken legs: they learned the hard way, that Pele took shit from nobody. Seriously though, I just don't think Pele had neither the physical strength, nor the mental strength, to take all those tackles, and still produce game-changing actions in every single game. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Willi Giesemann was former German defender and midfielder. Giesemann was very good player whose career was destroyed when Pele broke his leg intentionally and brutally in 1965." source ~ http://pcsd.forumfree.it/?t=59189660 "In a friendly match played in 1965, Pelé broke the leg of West Germany player Kiesman; an action which many believed to be intentional." source ~ http://gods-of-football.blogspot.com/feeds/posts/default?orderby=updated "In a Santos - Cruzeiro match, played in 1968, Pelé broke the leg of Procópio." source ~ http://gods-of-football.blogspot.com/feeds/posts/default?orderby=updated ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Was he really a player who could take a rather average team, and lead them to a WC win? I doubt it. At the 1970 World Cup, Pele offered plenty of examples of his prima-donna attitude. I think Pele was more likely to loose his patience and break some defender's leg, than actually leading an average team to victory. Actually, if you think about it, maybe Pele's 1966 WC was just Karma getting back at him for viciously breaking the leg of a German player, in a friendly game. I could imagine that many European defenders, upon hearing the news of Pele's brutal attack on Kiesman, were relishing the chance of sharing the love. NOTE Pele broke the legs of two defenders, is he the only famous attacking player to have done such a thing (at least) twice? NOTE
I knew Pelé was able to react violently (broke Mesiano's face in 1964 during the Copa de las Naciones and he elbowed an Uruguayan during the semifinal in 1970 WC, for which he should have missed the final), but I had never heard of him breaking legs like that...
Agree with everything, a much more balanced take than James' usual ignorance. I would disagree on one thing though, Cameroon was brutal on that opening match of WC90...Balbo was not able to recover for the next couple of matches, then Bilardo simply forgot about him. And had that match lasted 15 minutes more, Caniggia also says bye to the WC (there were two Cameroonian defenders sent off because of fouling Caniggia) and with that Argentina almost certainly exits at the round of 16 stage. However, it was not a lack of sportsmanship from the Cameroonians, rather, at the time isolated from international competition, their football was played as such, and perhaps because they stunned the world with that win, it made them continue playing in such a rogue manner defensively. A marked contrast to their offensive play which was very entertaining.
I did watch Maradona in every game of every World Cup. And I also have been watching him since he made his debut at Argentinos Juniors. I would agree with you that Maradona was close to 80 percent for most of the 1990 World Cup. But I was talking specifically about the final game, against Germany, and he was not even close to 40 percent, let alone 80 percent, for the final, as Buchwald -the German player assigned to follow Maradona throughout the pitch- quickly found out. Buchwald hardly had to run, because Maradona couldn't run either. As I said, he only played because he was Maradona and he wanted to play, plus they were running out of players, but he probably should have sat. I'm not old enough to have watched Pele live, but since my comment was not about Pele, I don't see how that is relevant. I have the utmost respect for Pele as a player, but I have to admit that most of what I know of him is from highlights, magazine reports, books, pictures, accounts from teammates, coaches and other players who faced him, and only a handful of games that I've been able to see in full. Oh, and I watched "Pele Eterno".
ASF, you are saying here what you said on February 4, 2005, in a discussion about the "Pelé Eterno" movie. In that post, you stated you watched Maradona's career closely, from his early days at Argentinos Juniors, and you actually said that the documentary led you to conclude that Pelé was superior to Maradona. I do not know whether you've changed your mind since then; however, I do remember being taken aback that an Argentine, and a fan of Boca Juniors at that, would actually come out to a Brazilian discussion thread and state his belief that Pelé was greater than Maradona - it is, of course, an assessment I agree with. Having said that, regardless of who was the greater player, there is absolutely no doubt that the 1986 Argentine NT would have been an extremely dangerous contender with Pelé on its starting front line and without Maradona. The midfield, as I wrote earlier, would have been weaker at least as playmaking was concerned. But I believe that with Pelé as the starting forward, Argentina would have been dangerous enough as Pelé's talent would have been sufficient to create various scoring opportunities by virtue of Pelé's sheer talent.
Yeah, I stand by what I said. I think what impressed me most about Pele was not all the friendlies he played against top teams in Europe or around the world in which he mesmerized the crowds, not even the World Cups in which he played alongside some of the greatest players ever. It was rather the way he dominated the Brazilian league. I have a lot of respect for the way football is being played and has always been played in Brazil, as well as in Argentina, and I cannot imagine any player being as dominant in Argentina as Pele was with Santos in Brazil. Not if you rolled Di Stefano, Maradona and Messi into one and put them on a top team, I don't think they wouldn't dominate matches the way the Pele-led Santos -based on all respectable accounts of the time and backed by video- was dominating back then. Now some may argue that lots of those matches were in a regional league, rather than a national league, but I would answer that -with apologies to my friends from Porto Alegre- the Paulista league has historically been the top regional league in Brazil. To me it's still very impressive. So, my point is that Pele was more dominant in Brazil than Maradona ever was in Argentina -or indeed any other place that he played. On the other hand, the question proposed by this thread is different. I would think what we are getting at in the discussion here is that Maradona was more important to Argentina's national team in 86 than Pele was to Brazil's national team, in any of the years in which they won with him. I would argue for the later bolded statement, while also asserting the former. I don't like when people put down one player in order to lift up another one, and especially when we're talking about great ones like Pele and Maradona. But if you put me on the spot and I had to impartially rank players, I would say Pele first and Maradona second, with the tiebreaker probably being overall achievements. It's a difficult choice, but I think that's how I would start my all-time list, followed by Di Stefano, Cruyff and Beckenbauer. But I can understand if some people see it different.
In a previous post I attempted to put together a formation similar to Argentina's formation in the 86 final using what I thought were somewhat Brazilian equivalents (searching throughout Brazilian history) for the Argentina 86 team. Now let me try to do the same using Argentine players to try to find equivalents to Brazil 58 final. D.Santos, Bellini, Orlando, N.Santos Zito, Didi Pele Garrincha, Vava, Zagalo This is what I come up with. Zanetti, Ruggeri, Albretch, Marzolini Rattin, Pipo Rossi Maradona Corbatta, Artime, Kili Gonzalez Tough to find a comparative to Zagallo, I picked Kili because Zagallo played more like a modern wing. Not a perfect comparison, but overall I think doing this exercise it's rather obvious how much better this team is than the one we came up with Brazilians for Argentina's 86 final. And I expect the same would also be true if we do Brazil 70. That I think illustrates well why I would argue that as far as World Cups go, Maradona was more important to Argentina than Pele was to Brazil.
It's quite unfortunate that Pele, at the age of 46, did not keep his promise to play for Brazil in the '86 WC because Maradona was waiting for him... Hey, did you take that line from El Grafico's '86 WC journalist Juvenal, mate?
No, but I remember Juvenal, he was one hell of a journalist. Did he say that? I'd love to read what he wrote on the subject.
It was an interesting piece to read from what I remember. It is in the edition that was released right after the final. I can't find it at the moment but if you can obtain that copy, I'm sure you'll enjoy it. Among many glaring differences: Brazil in '66 entered as 2-1 favorites to win the World Cup: And to what extent was the severity to their injuries?...
I think the author is right in saying that Maradona was more important for Argentina than Pele was for Brazil, and, that Diego produced a more dominant, more productive performance. And more spectacular too. But, it takes into consideration only those performances, not the way those teams were built as well. Brazil in 1970 wasn't built only around Pele, so by default you couldn't expect his game to be so important like Maradona's was for Argentina, whose team was actually built for and around him. The thing I would ask myself is what would have happened if Pele had actually played in a WC during his prime ? Look at his first two games in 1962 - probably his best individual year for Santos - he scored a brilliant solo goal right in the first match against Mexico. I think he would have produced a performance pretty similar to what Maradona showed in 1986, and thus being the ''Garrincha'' of that competition. Shame he never really played in a WC at the height of his powers. Maradona had this privilege on the other hand. Cruyff too.
Maradona was advised to sit out the rest of the match against Romania, and should Argentina advance, the following one to Brazil. He didn't, and this should be to his credit, that despite the ankle he was able to carry Argentina all the way to the final, leaving Brazil, Yugoslavia and Italy in the way.