World Football Historic Center (Dearman Blogspot)

Again, you are overlooking context.

 

There’s nothing close in my opinion since Messi has had more convenient situations served onto him on a silver platter and still couldn’t drive Argentina to glory. Furthermore, he’s never decided or influenced any game against a title contender in a major tournament. Beating up on the likes of Panama, Guatamala, Haiti etc, warrants no merit in any place alongside Maradona or any other previous legend of the Albiceleste.

 

Of course, Cruyff was more than Maradona at the club level, but the Argentine surpasses him at the national level and, in addition to his best performance peaks, Pelusa is slightly better.

 

What has been good for the NT ? Defeat after defeat as the main favorites in major competitions ? Struggles to qualify for WC 2010 and 2018 ? Again, context is overlooked.

Messi’s best individual display in a competition arrived in the made up CA 2016, with cannon fodder opposition — all minnows or non-qualified WC participants — you value that final run ?

Furthermore, he never made the difference in tight encounters in elimination rounds, with the exception against Switzerland in the second phase of WC 2014.

If that’s the measure of true greatness at NT level, then the standards have severely dropped.

 

Do not know what to say. The truth is that Cruyff is inferior to Messi if we talk about national teams. And most people think like me.

 

4 Finals are always going to be better than 1 final. Added to which is the historical top scorer. Please do not defend the indefensible, do not be fanatical and deluded.

 

In my lifetime I’ve been privileged to have been old enough to understand what it was to see Argentina lift 2 World Cups, 2 Copa America’s, 1 Confederations Cup and 1 Artemio Franchi Cup (1978 through 1993).

You, Mr. Stalin, I assume value second round finishes because you were not born or old enough to understand what made Argentina great.

The truth is that beating on Bolivia, Venezuela, USA, Panama, Iran, Nigeria, Switzerland, Paraguay, Jamaica, Colombia, Mexico, Bosnia — all minnows next to Argentina — is nothing to boast about.

Once they had to face a real test, the battle was either lost or relied on penalty shoutouts, in which Messi became a nonfactor.

If Cruyff or Maradona had featured under similar situations, they’d be 3 times champs. Both would have decided the final in 2014 and without a doubt taken out the underdogs Chile in 2015 and 2016.

Please, don’t continue to live in denial: Messi can’t hold a candle besides these men and it’s not even close.

 

What about play in La Liga with a team like Barcelona? Arguably in one of the best Era of one club, ever.. the main base of one of the best NT of all time, Spain 2008-2012.

Also do you really think that if for example Cristiano Ronaldo had continued at Manchester he could had scored 450 goals in 9 seasons? There is no much difference of the last 3 seasons of Cristiano at Manchester and the first 5 in the Real Madrid (especially the first one he was coming from a higher level competition and had accoring WhoScored the best season at RM too) and he still scored much more goals in Spain for example. The dream of all top players is be in La Liga w/ Barcelona or Real Madrid, it increase the stats a lot and all top players know that.

About the comparation, Messi is a loser at national level and his stats in World Cups are individually inferior than Pele and imo Pele was more a talent than Messi at his peak, at his time and at younger age too, he wasn't definitely there at #1 just by be the best player on a team. He scored goals, many goals, especially in finals and was determinant/talented in the field.

Messi stabilized himself as the best player in the world w/ 22 years (2009) on the other hand Pele could had already 4 ballon d'ors w/ 20 to 21 years.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballon_d'Or#Additional_awards

 

You live in your bubble world where 1 final is worth more than 4. I repeat, your mind is darkened. In all the serious rankings Messi is above Cruyff.

 

Don’t make me laugh, with the opponents he faced to reach those finals even you could play for Argentina.

The fact of the matter is he lost twice against underdogs (Chile) and a B Brazil side in 2007. He could have decided the final in 2014 but his inability (or incompetence) against a vulnerable defensive German side to put his chances away cost Argentina dearly.

Under similar circumstances, Cruyff would be 3 times champion, even playing with one hand wrapped behind his back.

Stop kidding yourself kid, stop with your man-crush with Messi, he’s only harmed the NT lately.

 

In fairness, the fact that he played only 48 caps (putting aside the reasons/context) does create a problem and difficulty.

Though if you look at the top 10 opponents he faced (starting with 1966 Hungary) he probably did very well. If you look at it in the way 'performance and/or production against top opponents / all games against top teams = ratio of performance' then I'm sure he scores objectively/subjectively quite high (about counter-evidence you wondered why it was seen as 'bad' I remember, like the vs Poland away game where he had tbf an assist). But the relatively low amount of games, even if there are good and verifiable reasons for that, does create a problem.
That said, Ballon d'Or winners like Law and Simonsen - to name two - have a similar amount of caps for (partially) similar problems.

On the other hand, we can still see the performance difference with him not playing, which is quite substantial. Advanced models back that up.

The knock on effect he helped to create (yes, success has many fathers.. that's true too..) shouldn't be underestimated as well. During his career in football Netherlands was 3rd in the Elo rating over all those years (side-effect of playing many group of deaths...), and of the European countries* only Germany made more semi final and quarter final appearances in major tournaments.

*) comparison with other continents cannot be made

 

4 finals are more than 1, but for you Cruyff is better because he had won those finals. Ridiculous thought. Luckily, the majority is against you.

 

He’s better at NT level because he simply played better.

The mediocre competitions that Messi featured in and couldn’t win despite being heavy favorites is more a taint to his legacy than an achievement.

Accept it man of steel and move on.

 

Cruijff
In his only WC he performed one of the 5 better WC performances ever.
He played very good to excellent in 5 out of 7 matches he played there.
Excellent (v.Swe, Arg). Very good (v. Uru, Bul, Bra). Only decent (v.EGer, WGer)

http://www.everyfourthyear.com/1974/


Messi
At WC 2006 - he played vs Holland (decent) and 2 with few minutes (no rated)
At WC 2010 - very good (v.Nig.Kor) - decent (v.Gre, Mex) - bad (v.Ger)
At WC 2014 - very good (v.Nig, Swi) - decent (v.Bos, Ira, Bel, Ger) - bad (v. Ned)
At WC 2018 - very good (v.Nig) - decent (v.Isl, Fra) - bad (v.Cro)

http://www.everyfourthyear.com/2006/
http://www.kicker.de/news/fussball/.../2006/33709/nationalspieler_lionel-messi.html

 

While this may be justified in some ways, speaking more pragmatically, it doesn't look like anyone would force these players to retire, especially Messi. So the probability remains that he could end up getting a medal with a new cast of players. I was hinting at this when I made the above remark which you quoted.

Also, one more thing that piqued my curiosity was, how it came to occur that Messi was part of 4 continental/gobal tournament finalist squads with the NT, without as you mention doing as much as former greats have done. I agree that one of those tournaments was definitely something that was set up to make money and had no historical bearing (Copa 16) and another had a different protagonist leading Argentina (Copa 07), but that still leaves the other two. So the question is, did he have a significant non-statistical impact? Was it possible that, in trying to shackle him by focusing on their defense, the opposition teams' offense suffered allowing Argentina to squeeze through. I was wondering what your thoughts were on this.

 

The thing is historically only top contenders usually can beat and eliminate Argentina from major competitions. There’s exceptions of course, like CA1997 or WC94, but the former was fielded by a B side and the latter was missing several key players and going through an emotional breakdown.

Which brings me to your question, which I’ll answer and then ask a question which pertains to your question.

It’s possible that Messi’s presence affected certain teams and their approach to games differently (this used to occur with Maradona as well) but whenever Argentina and Messi ran into a serious threat before reaching a final they usually got eliminated (WC2010, CA2011 and WC2018). So those runs to the finals in 2014 and 2015 had a lot to do with avoiding certain teams and navigating through the path of least resistance.

Where Messi has a psychological advantage over opponents is mostly against the sides with less powerhouse tradition.

Furthermore, the majority of those teams they faced in the KO rounds of 2014 and 2015 were not very strong offensively and Argentina were at its strongest defensively.

So another way to look at it is would they have reached those finals without him ? I think yes. When you look at the path to the finals I don’t think any of those teams, outside maybe the Netherlands, realistically would eliminate them. Argentina’s approach would have been different with another lineup but they would adjust accordingly to their tradition and capacity. In addition, as stated before, during that period (2014-2016) they locked teams down defensively.

In regards if he will continue playing for the NT, that’s all up to him. He has the power and leverage to do what he wants since he’s been given free license for years now thanks to the corrupt AFA. I just don’t know if he sees it worth the time to add himself to a host of new younger faces without his clan of friends along for the ride anymore. He’ll always cash in on representing the country but don’t know if the sacrifices of traveling across continents and having to risk injury/accidents is important to him anymore. One thing is probably certain: the best years of him in the white and sky blue are probably gone, Father Time remains undefeated.

 

Had a look at wikipedia and apparently we are #1 in: world's tallest people; lowest business corruption; net positive contribution to the planet and human race.

Great. This is a thing where you are correct. In almost all things NLD is top 10, but never number one.

 

After looking at the overview, his two assists against France are an improvement over what has gone before, right?

With his explosive, low stamina profile it all looks unlikely to defeat father time.

At the same time, opportunities are better than ever for the elite athletes and cashcows to stay at the top until the mid-30s.

A different way of putting it that he had goals, assists against all of Argentina, Brazil and West Germany (... + if Rep had buried the shot...) - and also created the opening goal against (rough playing) Uruguay.

 

Or saying that Cruijff in his first attemp to have the "Doctoral degree", he had:
- 5 out of 7 world class performances at WC overall.
- 2 out of 3 world class performances at WC latter stages (QF*, SF*, Final)

* I considered the Argentina & Brazil matches.

 

The last goal for Aguero was an aberration, France had let their guard down, made several substitutions, doubt that occurs with the game still in the balance.

Counting assists is all dandy though, but looking at performance is another thing. For 89 minutes you have a player that virtually is a statue, doesn’t help out the defense and makes little to no impact at all on the offensive end.

 

I am amused by how he fits the words, "Cruyff played better but Messi did not win anything". But he omits that Cruyff could not win anything either,

A player who has 4 finals and is the top scorer is always going to be better than another who played only one final and could not qualify for a World Cup. Less in your parallel world, you are partial and fanatical.

 

Do not victimize man, in some things they are pioneers like in the red zone.

 

Hey hello, I do not victimize here, I say you are right! 'We' are indeed always second... ** pulling open the newspaper ** second in everything.

 

Dude, Cruyff’s performance alone against Argentina at WC74, trumps all matches of Messi in 4 World Cups combined.

His best displays (which were few) arrived against squads that would not have existed in Cruyff’s epoch due to the 16 team format.

His run to those finals had more to do with the expansion, cannon fodder teams, or penalty shoutout wins.

He was the weakest Golden Ball winner in World Cup history, as no other outfield player and winner of the award, had ever failed to score in a KO round or made such minimal impact. The same dubious decision of awarding him occurred one year later in Chile 2015.

His golden first place awards are shrouded in controversy (probably the most questionable in any tournament) and it had more to do with the marketing surrounding his name than the actual individual exploits on the pitch, where with the exception of the 2014 second phase match and the 2015 semifinal (all against underdogs), he was virtually a nonfactor and seemed just another spectator on the field.