Rivelino vs Cubillas (continued ... ) 1- I can use "your LOGIC" to claim Rivelino beat Cubillas in the big game (QF) of WC70 OK? Rivelino 1goal+2ass to beat 3 Peru 1 Cubillas (1goal) - NO? Naaaaah that's not clear and misleading! 2- Now my take on their WC performance: Rivelino (6go+4ass/15ga WC winner, WC finalist, WC 4th) = Cubillas (10goals+2as/13ga 2xQF) individually, Rivelino was in WC70 all star (Cubillas not selected) = Cubillas was in WC78 all star (Rivelino not selected) Rivelino was a bit off scale at WC74 (not so brilliant individually) but he was still the main player behind the 4th place team. He scored 3goals+1ass in 6goals team scoring = 65% contribution to a team that had NO STRIKER (Jaizinho, Dirceu and Valdomiro were all FW/AM)
If you asked me for Cubillas or Rivelino. I'd say is a very tight comparison. I don't say, any of both were mediocre at anything (exc. defending). If you chech both in details, if Cubillas excelled in X department, Rivelino was very good. And viceversa analyzing Y skill. I mean, we're comparing two real legendary players.
I know you made a honest research, but I will bring some points, because I watched Romário through almost his entire (and very long) career. 1) First, Romário was world class in 88/90 playing from PSV. He was scoring many goals domestically and also in European Cup on his first years in Holland. He was a good bet for WC90, but unfortunately broke his leg 2 months before the WC. He was not fully fit for that WC, but still coach Lazaroni decided to have him on the bench there. I already post a poll made by Guerin Sportivo 1 month before WC90, where they collected opinions of 100 journalists around the world. The question was: Who will be top scorer in the WC90? The results: Van Basten (52), Careca (17), Romario (10), Maradona and Vialli (5), Bebeto (4), Lineker (3), Butragueno, Francescoli, Gullit, Klinsmann, Littbarski, Sosa, Voller (1). https://groups.google.com/forum/#!s...oll/rec.sport.soccer/Qi0-LPhTGfw/u8q7FUP7jxoJ So, it was not like 24 years Romário was a unknown player. You can see he was already a good bet, but of course he was not on Van Basten level in that years. He helped Brazil In Copa América 89, when he was the second best player of the team (Bebeto was better than him in overall tournament, but Romário was really great in the 3 final matches). You also can notice that Romário made the top 10 of the year in 88 and 89, in elections conducted by World soccer magazine. http://www.rsssf.com/miscellaneous/wsoc89.html http://www.rsssf.com/miscellaneous/wsoc88.html
1) Romário had many injuries in 91/92. Only played 13 games in Eredivisie. This didn´t help him to make part of NT. However, in 92/93 he reached his best technical form and coach Parreira called the polemic guy for a friendly game in 92. The coach decided to start the game with Romário on the bench and the guy became really crazy about that. He said he was the best player of the team, so he would not accept to be benched under any circunstance. Parreira and Zagallo then decided to not call Romário anymore, due to his poor behavior. In 93 the entire country was demanding for Romário in the NT. Brazil was struggling in WCqualifiers, then Parreira called him for the final game against Uruguay. He scored 2 goals and assured his place on WC squad. 2) In Copa América97 he also scored a goal against México, but it was credited as a own goal. However, like I said in previous post, if you give too much importance for Copa America97, you also have to give importance for Confederation Cup and Olympics game, where Romário was top scorer in both. Confederation and CA were low quality tournaments in late 90s. 3) Romário was not great in Brazilian league in 95 and 96, I agree. After WC94 he believed that he became a God or something like that and stop to training. He had no motivation, so think it was his low years. He scored many goals in Carioca state , but that is it. 4) His performance on WC94 was great. Baggio, Stoichkov and Hagi also were great there. Romário scored 5 goals, provided 2 assists for Bebeto and produced a PK, which Rai scored. He was involved on 8/11 of Brazil goals. 5) He found great form in the period 99/2002. In 2000, he scored 72 goals in 73 games and was elected SA player of the year over Riquelme. In 2001, he became the oldest top scorer of the brazilian league, at the age of 35. In 2005, his swan song, he broke his own record and became top scorer at the age of 39 years old, scoring more goals than good Young players like Carlos Tevez and Nilmar (former Villarreal). 6) So, we can say Romário have ups and downs. He had a short peak, but great longevity. He had a Strong claim for a place in WC02 Brazil squad at the age of 36, this fact say a lot.
None of your comparisons hold water though, it was Schiaffino, not Zizinho, who was playing for the small team (Uruguay) and yet he won. Iniesta vs Sneijder, it's Iniesta playing for the bigger team, and Muller (+Beckenbauer) vs Cruyff, it's Muller and the Kaiser on the bigger team. Zizinho played for Flamengo, Brazil's biggest team, it is not the same as Maradona at Napoli, Totti at Roma, Batistuta at Firenze, whose chances of winning were stacked against the odds. In any event, Zizinho was a special player in his own right, but I will take Schiaffino over him anytime, specially if the goal is to win. PS: Why do you say a "Ronaldo-less Brazil" when Ronaldo played the entire WC98 final and couldn't do anything.
The 1950 tragedy result in Maracana should be connected with performance in overall Brazil and Uruguay teams and surely Schiaffino is advantage to Zizinho as he scored one of the most important goals in history but WC tournament is just a part. Pedernera in what article always describes, is an absolute complete players but it is always a controversial topic and evidence of his playing is rare. He also played only 21 games for Argentina due to many candidates in the same position such as Martino, Mendez (Labruba played 27, Loustau 28 and Moreno 34) lower number of games shorter longevity. In case of Stojkovic, if you really believe he should be in top 40, it would be a very long discussion about the reason he is better than Sekularac, Susic, Hoddle, Haynes, Giresse,etc in overall career. Cubillas is one of the top WC legends but I just rate his performance in a half of tournament each world cup since Peru never reached semi-finalists. Rivelino was very good in the 1974 World Cup but it too much for him to carry the team to beat the host Germany.
Thanks for expand the reason about disappearance of Romario. I didn't refer about it because the rating must be applied for longevity of appearances is something problem for Romario in those periods ( He had many problems during his career but the ability is no questionable) Why do Olympic Game standard is comparable to that of Copa America ? The tournament is mostly participated by U-23 players. FIFA Confederation Cup has surely been into account in his rating but I think it is very minor part in rating. Brazil played against grade B team (Mexico and Czech Republic) just twice games and they beat an incomparable level team like Australia 6-0 in the final.
International Legendary Museum is located in xtralegend.blogspot.com It shows all-time squad in various nations. Obvious change of format is that I cancel all squad B, C, D and replaced by "Positional Ranking of Substitution" Aside from all-time national squads, it is also all-time squad in major international tournaments and also Series A and La Liga. I also add Zonal Union All-Time Squad (All-Time Squad in each zone and its ranking of best ever) Statistics There are 1190 profile pictures in this museum ! and there are many additional profile players with delete some profile players also to standardize quality of players. This table shows number by each nation or union. Brazil 84 Italy 78 Argentina 75 Germany 72 England 69 Holland 47 Spain 40 Soviet Union 40 Yugoslavia 40 France 37 Uruguay37 Hungary 36 Portugal 31 Major Africa 28 Austria 26 Sweden 26 Scotland 25 Belgium 25 Denmark 25 Czechoslovakia 24 Romania 24 Peru 24 Poland 23 Turkey 23 North Africa 23 Ireland 22 Bulgaria 22 Greece 22 East Asia 22 West Asia 22 Rest of Nordic 19 Chile 17 Latin North Americas 17 Colombia-Ecuador 15 Wales 14 Paraguay 14 Switzerland 13 Oceania 13 British North America 11 Bolivia 3 Record The Oldest Player Ever : Ernest Needham (England, Born 21 January 1973) The Newest Player Ever : Eden Hazard (Belgium, Born 7 January, 1991) The Highest Rating Player : Pele (Brazil) The Lowest Rating Player : Choi-In Young (Korea Republic) The Tallest Player : Jan Koller (Czech Republic, 202 cm) The Shortest Player : Manuel Seoane (Argentina, 160 cm) The Most Caps Player : Mohammed Al-Deayea (Saudi Arabia, 178 Games) The Most Club Games : Peter Shilton (England, 1054 Games in Top Division) The Most NT Scorers : Ali Daei (Iran, 109 Goals) The Most League Winners : Ryan Giggs (13 Times) The Most International Clubs Winners : Francisco Gento (6 Times) The Most World Cup Winners : Pele (3 Times)
Additionally, I made "All-Time Squad Potential Assessment" to rank potential ability of these all-time squad. All-Time Squad potential assessment is totally calculated for all all-time squads in the museum in accordance with rating of proportionally functional play of each position of eleven first team players base on their functional line of any formation system. Hence, there is no format of proportion of multifunctional play in each functional line as it is depend on the role of player in any system. Offensive sweeper, side-back, central midfielder, winger, trequartista and forward all are considered in this scope and contribute more than one functional line. It is 100 percent weight of rating for only one functional play, are Goalkeeper, pure defender, playmaker and target striker. In a final calculation of total assessment, proportion of functional line will be 20 percent DF-27.5 Percent MF-20 percent FW-20 percent Manager-12.5 percent Substitution. In ranking of rating, XI rating is secondary comparison in case squad rating is not significant different. Midfield rating is a thirdly comparison in case XI rating is not significant different. For only eleven players, proportion will be DF-30 Percent MF-40 percent FW-30 percent.
This myth comes back once in a while but it was sufficiently dealt with in the past. As a start: Brazil played that game in their own Maracana against Uruguay. Except for that 1950 game, it almost always resulted in heavy beatings, look at the country results. The goals: a header from close range after a Jorginho cross and beating of the (badly employed) offside trap, then rounding the goalkeeper.
Hope this is ok for you Roy: https://www.bigsoccer.com/community/threads/player-comparison-thread-bobby-charlton-didi.1992258/ I put in on the main forum actually. Hope the weather cools down for you!
I already posted about it. Copa América 97 had 3 Squads A: Brazil (who was already qualified for WC98 and wanted to give constistency for the team), México and Paraguay. Argentina main player there was Gallardo. Chile did not play with Salas and Zamorano. Uruguay played with Squad B. That is mostly because all these teams gave priority for WC98 qualifiers. So, in the end, CA and Confederation had the same level in 97, a low level by the way. For the Olympics 88, Brazil faced Germany (Klinsmann, Thomas Hassler), Yugoslavia, Nigeria and URSS, this put the tournament on the same class of CA97 (a low class).
I didn´t want to say that Brazil would had lost for Uruguay without him. Its just that the entire country was demanding for him. The coach hated him (for some good reasons), but called him at the end to not be responsible if a tragedy happened. And his performance was great in that entire game, you can find the highlights on Youtube.
I don't sense Zizinho's club career is so much greater than Schiaffino's to atone for the Maracanazo, if fact at club level it's about even but Schiaffino has the WC50 triumph and the WC54 semifinal appearance, his greater performance in the higher importance tournaments should be enough to elevate him past Zizinho. Same with Stojkovic, I think you are placing far too much importance on club career and not looking enough at their NT performances. For Brazil at WC74, I feel it is their worst team besides WC90 and Rivelino (and Jairzinho) must bear some of the blame for it. Contrast it with Brazil at WC86, following the legendary side of WC82, they still played some great football led by Socrates after Zico's injury relegated him to a bench role. A similar situation to Rivelino in WC74, following up a legendary side minus Pele, but the performances were different. Which heavy beatings, this is a classic rivalry and no game is ever easy for Brazil, even this past Confed Cup again shows the tradition. Uruguay should have won in Brazil both the qualifier for WC02 (las minute bogus penalty awarded to Brazil to tie the game) and the qualifier for WC06 (offside goal by Emerson allowed for Brazil to tie the game 3-3). It is not at all inconceivable that Uruguay could have won the WC94 qualifier without Romario on the field. From this all I can say is you didn't watch the match.
Brazil their 1978 team is viewed as equally bad if not worse as their 1974 team. It had (even) less creativity, a worse manager and a not as good defense. Brazil was before 1974 still seen as one of the main favorites while this was not the case for 1978 (also because the injuries of Rivelino and Zico were known as well as internal tensions). The ELO rank also underlines this.
Romario (and Bebeto) dominated the Uruguayan side, particularly in the first half when the game really should have been finished. Every time Romario touched the ball, the Uruguayan defense completely lost the plot. They managed to held on to a scoreless draw the first half but the goals would come eventually as they ran out of gas from trying to cover Romario and Bebeto. The second goal by Romario is a masterpiece.
A draw had been sufficient too because of superior goal difference. Maybe Brazil had the same magic coffee as Argentina against Australia , LOL
I will stop with this post, otherwise this thread will become another one about brazilian players, and they have been discussed in other threads. However, I will bring my last thoughts here. Romário has been punished on Dearman list due to his "disappearances" through his career. now he is below Rivaldo and Ronaldinho. I watched him very close and agree that he was not on great level (for his own standard) in 91/92 (injured), 95 and 96. How about the other brazilians? I also watched them very close. How describe Rivaldo in 01/02, 02/03, 03/04 seasons? And Ronaldinho 07/08, 08/09, 09/10, 2011 seasons? And Ronaldo 95/96, 98/99, 05/06? And Garrincha apart from the early 60s? The thing is that consistency through the entire career is really hard to find if a player based his game on creativity and skills, like all these names above. Players like Roberto Carlos and Cafu had great consistency in almost entire career, but their standards are not the same of the greatest legends of Brazil and their game was based on strenght, pace and defensive work, so its easier for a Roberto Carlos keep his normal level through 10 years continuously. And this fact explain why Pele is clearly above any other brazilian. He was the only brazilian who could managed to maintain his own outstanding level for many years.
Yes, a draw was sufficient, except that Uruguay could always scored a header in the 90th minute. Brazil was better than Uruguay, just as Argentina was over Australia, and they deservedly won. The better team deserves to win in football. Romario should never be below Rivaldo or Ronaldinho, no offense to Dearman but this makes his list inane.
Your idol Diego Maradona disagrees. According to him, Argentina had never qualified without Grondona and his magic coffee clearance. "Because otherwise Argentina would not make the World Cup qualifiers." I found something where Pipiolo disagrees
Maradona also thinks Magico Gonzalez was a better player than him . You are so entrenched up your ass with conspiracy theories and behind the scenes deals that you actually believe Argentina, with Maradona, Batistuta, Balbo, Redondo, Simeone, Sensini, Chamot, etc. could not match up against Australia back in 1993.
Where do I say that? I don't. I was just joking. However, that a draw was sufficient for Brazil was an advantage. After all it was Uruguay who needed to score and chase eventually, and not Brazil. Such fact (that the one needs a win while the other doesn't) changes the dynamics of a game, esp. when one of them plays a home game.
Well, it is always difficult to rate players in Uruguayan league in which Schiaffino spent most of career and legends who proved himself in higher standard of league is advantage. Uruguayan league was played by only superb teams like Penarol and Nacional while Campeonato Carioca was participated by top teams like Flamengo, Botafogo, Fluminese, Vasco Da Gama. Zizinho's peak career is performed during his time at Flamengo and he still went on a top-class performance at Bangu where he scored more than any season in his career. Zizinho was also one of the top players in twice Copa America (1946 and 1949) and overall skills were seen to be more complete than Schiaffino. Stojkovic was very good at the 1990 WC and since then his NT career was also effected by undesirable injury and unfortunately Yugoslavia in his era was much effected by political conflict between separated nations.
Schiaffino also played eight years in Serie A at a very high level, this confirms his great form at club level, which should be on par with Zizinho's value. The political situation undoubtedly hurts that great generation of players for Yugoslavia, particularly Stojkovic. In spite of that, he was a greater player internationally than many of the players listed on your top 50. The playmaker is the one who channels the audience's hope for excitement and how they manage that expectation must also be considered in their value.