WNT v Colombia, Apr. 6, 2016, pre/pbp/post

Discussion in 'USA Women: News and Analysis' started by Semblance17, Mar 31, 2016.

  1. 8MiLLeNiuM

    8MiLLeNiuM Member

    Jan 14, 2016
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #126 8MiLLeNiuM, Apr 7, 2016
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2016
    Yes, Colombia played in the Toronto Pan Am games. They actually lost to Brazil in the final (after defeating Canada in the Semis) on July 25, 2015. I believe Colombia were missing 3 of their regular starters, including Andrade.
     
  2. 8MiLLeNiuM

    8MiLLeNiuM Member

    Jan 14, 2016
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Now that comment will get you a @Semblance17 Rep every time.
     
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  3. 8MiLLeNiuM

    8MiLLeNiuM Member

    Jan 14, 2016
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    :) :laugh: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO:
     
  4. 8MiLLeNiuM

    8MiLLeNiuM Member

    Jan 14, 2016
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #129 8MiLLeNiuM, Apr 7, 2016
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2016
    I think Hinkle will be the death of Hinkle; she just isn't at the level of the others.
     
  5. 8MiLLeNiuM

    8MiLLeNiuM Member

    Jan 14, 2016
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #130 8MiLLeNiuM, Apr 7, 2016
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2016
    I found some good quality videos of this match on Youtube, including pre-match post-match stuff:




     
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  6. Semblance17

    Semblance17 Member+

    United States
    Apr 27, 2013
    Lighthouse Point, FL
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You're not wrong.
     
  7. 8MiLLeNiuM

    8MiLLeNiuM Member

    Jan 14, 2016
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think Heath played one of the best matches of her career. Really, she was outstanding.
    I also thought Dunn and Long played out of their minds. I thoroughly enjoyed this match.
    The whole team passed extremely well and they were passing quickly, hopefully this was a glimpse of what we'll see during the Olympics. ;)
     
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  8. uncchamps2012

    uncchamps2012 Member

    Jul 9, 2011
    how does this team beat columbia by 7 and the WC champs were lucky to win? Are they really this good?
     
  9. BrooklynSoccer

    BrooklynSoccer Member+

    Jan 22, 2008
    I heard that from a few people, yet i watched 10 minutes of the first half and for those 10 minutes she passed or shot the ball into a columbian 5 times in a row. I'll have to re-watch..she seems to be moving really well.
     
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  10. 8MiLLeNiuM

    8MiLLeNiuM Member

    Jan 14, 2016
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The USA got off to a slow start for sure, but, according to the post-match interviews, that was Jill Ellis' plan. So we cannot fault the players. On the very first goal, Heath tried to shoot at goal 2-3, which ended up hitting a Colombian defender each time. Besides those shots, the rest of match, she looked really good. I won't get caught up in one sequence. I watched the match slowly and patiently, I would stop every 20 minutes or so and digest what I had seen. In general, all the US players had nice, quick ball movement.
     
  11. babranski

    babranski Member+

    Dec 15, 2012
    Raleigh, NC
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Well, finished with Heath's first half. So far my only question is this... anybody know how to cook crow for me to make it easier to go down?

    I've gotten the hang of this a bit & will go ahead and pick up Press' second half & post it along side Heath's full game.
     
  12. babranski

    babranski Member+

    Dec 15, 2012
    Raleigh, NC
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Christen Press first. I can't help but feel bad for her. Like @taosjohn said she's pretty much on the outside looking in and I don't think it's really her fault. She's doing everything she's supposed to do and then some. Press had a rather spectacular game, in my estimation the best game of any US player statistics wise, but her performance was overshadowed by some of her teammates more visible nights. Like Heath, Press was far more involved than I thought.

    Her pass completion percentage is extraordinary given the number of attempts she made, a full 20 more attempts than Pugh from the first half. In one half Press nearly had as many attempts as Heath did the entire game. She also created more chances in one half than any other US player did in the entire game.

    Final Stats for Christen Press
    1 goal from 4 shots, 1 on goal, 2 blocked.

    37 Possessions
    7 Turnovers

    32 Pass Attempts
    27 Completed

    12 Key Pass Attempts
    9 Completed

    6 Chance Creations Attempts
    4 Completed
     
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  13. cpthomas

    cpthomas BigSoccer Supporter

    Portland Thorns
    United States
    Jan 10, 2008
    Portland, Oregon
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Babranski, I like what you're doing, even though the opportunity for personal bias to creep in is large. Better to try it than not. Regarding Press, I'm wondering how when a player is in the game begins to affect the data. Are her good stats the result of how she played or the result of Colombia being wasted and her being fresh.

    I'l wondering what your stats would show for KO as compared to Klingenberg. My impression was that KO had a very poor game.

    I'd also like to see your stats for Dunn. I haven't been a fan, but in this game I thought she looked really good, doing things I haven't seen her do before.

    Whatever though, great effort on your part.
     
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  14. babranski

    babranski Member+

    Dec 15, 2012
    Raleigh, NC
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    My early impressions of Tobin Heath was based on the complete lack of chance creation. She just doesn't show up in the final third when it matters the most, having completed only 1 chance all night, & even that was by way of technicality for the sake of consistency.

    My mistake was then to believe the lack of creative stats would translate to the other aspects of her game, and boy was I wrong. Christen Press had a staggering 85% pass completion rate, but Heath wasn't too far behind. I was also very impressed that Heath retained possession and kept her usual abhorrent turnover rate to a minimum.

    @cpthomas your question is well timed... Key Passing is a stand-alone stat I used precisely for this reason. It helps give perspective to the degree of difficulty, especially if you compare two players key passes over the same stretch of time. Press came in against a very tired team & racked up a number of easy passes cycling the ball about and just retaining possession. Only 12 key passing attempts in 32 is a telling number. Meanwhile, Heath attempted 19 key passes in 37, mostly in the first half. Without having watched the game I could probably have looked at the stats & surmised that Heath had been on when the quality of the opposition was greater. However, Heath actually only completed 6 key passes to Press' 9 in the second half. That lends more value to Press' performance against the same tired opponent, imo. Go one step furth and compare an analysis I did of Rapinoe vs Brazil when I first started to develop the idea. Rapinoe had something like 25 Pass Attempts & all but a few were Key Passes.

    Tobin Heath's final stats:
    46 Possessions
    8 Turnovers

    37 Pass Attempts
    29 Completed

    19 Key Pass Attempts
    12 Completed

    4 Chance Creations attempted
    1 Completed

    Tobin Heath starts the game on the left.
    00:27 - 00:30 Turnover In Possession
    04:18 - 04:30 Incomplete Key Pass, Chance Creation Attempted, end-line cut back, intercepted.
    05:30 - 05:34 Completed Key Pass
    05:58 - 06:00 Incomplete Pass, Turnover
    11:09 - 11:13 Completed Key Pass
    15:07 - 15:10 Turnover in Possession
    17:05 - 17:05 Completed Key Pass

    Heath moves to the right.

    18:45 - 18:50 Turnover in Possession. *after a corner
    22:27 - 22:30 Completed Pass
    23:20 - 23:23 Completed Key Pass
    24:18 - 24:26 Completed Key Pass
    25:51 - 25:51 Blocked Shot
    25:53 - 25:53 Blocked Shot
    26:00 Dunn scores, 1-0 US
    27:00 - 27:08 Turnover in Possession
    28:00 - 28:05 Incomplete Key Pass, Chance Creation Attempted, cross too close to keeper.
    31:12 Long scores, 2-0 US
    32:23 - 32:25 Turnover in Possession
    32:29 Pugh Scores, 3-0 US
    35:19 - 35:23, Completed Key Pass
    38:12 Lloyd Scores, 4-0 US
    39:35 - 39:38, Incomplete Key Pass, Completed Chance Creation, driven cross bent into the "second 6", cleared.
    43:48 - 43:48, Completed Pass
    44:06 - 44:07, Completed Pass
    44:16 - 44:18, Completed Pass

    HALF, 4-0 US

    Heath starts the second half on the left.

    45:17 - 45:20, Completed Pass
    45:24, Shot off target.
    47:56 - 47:58, Incomplete Key Pass
    48:58 - 48:59, Incomplete Key Pass
    52:46 - 52:46, Completed Key Pass, Fouled… should have been advantage.
    53:31 - 53:32, Completed Pass
    55:04 - 55:08, Completed Pass
    55:10 - 55:13, Turnover in Possession
    57:44 - 57:47, Turnover in Possession
    58:01 - 58:04, Completed Key Pass
    61:21 - 61:25, Completed Key Pass
    61:59 Heath Scores, Chance created by Dunn. 5-0 US
    64:23 Long Scores, 6-0 US
    67:05 - 67:07, Completed Pass

    Tobin Heath moves to Left Back. Okay then.

    71:10 - 71:15, Completed Key Pass
    72:11 - 72:16, Completed Key Pass
    72:48 - 72:5, Completed Pass
    73:45, Press scores, 7-0 US
    74:55 - 74:57, Completed Pass
    78:14 - 78:15, Completed Pass
    79:39 - 79:47, Incomplete Key Pass, Chance Creation Attempted, short cross cleared away.
    80:?? - 80:26, Completed Pass
    84:03 - 84:06, Incomplete Key Pass, Chance Creation Attempted, Long & Direct, straight to keeper.
    84:56 - 84:58, Completed Pass
    86:28 - 86:30, Completed Pass
    87:30 - 87:34, Completed Pass
    88:03 - 88:04, Completed Key Pass
    88:?? - 88:45, Completed Pass
    88:57 - 88:58, Completed Pass
     
  15. babranski

    babranski Member+

    Dec 15, 2012
    Raleigh, NC
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The more I do this the more proficient I'll get at it. Two players worth of data has pretty much taken up all my free time in one day. I definitely plan on doing Dunn next, but what I analyze will depend on how many minutes she gets on Sunday, if any at all.

    I share your impression of KO having a poor game, I recall a lot of poor cross attempts the most. People have been mentioning Hinkle as fading, but what exactly has KO been doing to solidify that roster spot? Nothing I say. Then again, after getting my impressions of Heath wrong, I should be wary of saying that.
     
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  16. Smallchief

    Smallchief Member+

    Oct 27, 2012
    Club:
    --other--
    I appreciate your efforts to quantify performance. It was my impression that Heath had a good game -- and I'm not usually appreciative of Heath.

    My impression, however, was that Press wasn't especially good -- despite her picture-perfect goal -- and I'm a fan of Press. You've made me want to evaluate her performance a little more closely.

    I particularly like your stat on "completed key pass."

    I'd like to see more stats on the woman's game. Secondary assists would be one big improvement -- e.g. the player who made the pass which enabled another player to make an assist. That National Team is too stingy with its stats, assuming it has good stats.
     
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  17. babranski

    babranski Member+

    Dec 15, 2012
    Raleigh, NC
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Had a similar thought process: multiple people are capable of creating chances within the same sequence. Whenever a chance does occur I'm careful to analyze the sequence leading up to it & give credit where credit is do. A simple pass to cycle the ball doesn't deserve the same credit as a give & go touch.

    Take Christen Press' chance created at the 88:08 mark (on typing that I realized I didn't include Press' log!)

    Press' touch to release Carli Lloyd on goal gave Lloyd the opportunity to do one of two things, shoot or drive endline to pass. If I was doing Lloyd's stats, I would have given her a chance creation attempted tally because once she got end-line she tried to cut it back. So that was a sequence where two chance creations were attempted. Alternatively, if Lloyd had been at an angle too difficult to shoot, after Press' pass, I would still have given Press the chance creation tally if Lloyd had driven end line & tried to cut it back like she did. The quickness of Press' pass is what made that sequence go, & I would almost always give her credit for it.

    Christen Press starts the second half on the right.

    45:45 - 45:45, Completed Pass
    45:47 - 45:53, Completed Pass
    46:26 - 46:28, Completed Key Pass
    46:33 - 46:34, Completed Key Pass
    48:24 - 48:28, Turnover in Possession
    49:28 - 49:30, Chance Creation Completed, double move 20 yards out, wild shot wide and over the bar.
    50:20 - 50:27, Incomplete Key Pass, Chance Creation Attempted, driven cross from endline too close to keeper.
    50:54 - 51:02, Key Pass Completed
    54:08 - 54:09, Incomplete Key Pass, Turnover
    54:46 - 54:46, Completed Pass
    54:48 - 45:49, Completed Pass
    55:18 - 55:18, Completed Pass
    55:20 - 55:23, Completed Pass
    57:33 - 57:34, Completed Pass
    57:35 - 57:37, Completed Key Pass
    58:04 - 58:06, Completed Key Pass
    58:40 - 58:41, Completed Pass
    61:44 - 61:48, Completed Pass
    61:59 Heath Scores, 5-0 US
    64:23 Long Scores, 6-0 US

    Christen Press moves to the left.

    69:47 - 69:52, Turnover in Possession
    71:35 - 71:37, Completed Pass
    71:49 - 71:49, Completed Pass
    72:08 - 72:10, Turnover in Possession
    73:45 Press Scores, Chance created by Dunn, 7-0 US
    77:09, Shot Blocked
    78:00, Shot Blocked
    78:15 - 78:17, Completed Key Pass, Completed Chance Creation, Diagonal Cross to back post, 6 yards out. Mewis heads it wide.
    79:59 - 79:59, Incomplete Pass, Turnover
    80:35 - 80:36, Completed Pass
    80:39 - 80:42, Incomplete Key Pass, Attempted Chance Creation, endline cut back, behind intended target & cleared.
    81:11 - 81:13, Completed Pass
    84:40 - 84:43, Completed Key Pass
    85:02 - 85:03, Completed Pass
    86:00 - 86:02, Incomplete Key Pass, Turnover
    87:27 - 87:28, Completed Pass
    88:08 - 88:08, Completed Key Pass, Chance Creation Completed, outside the boot give & go with Lloyd 16 yards out, left seam. Lloyd through on goal.
    88:52 - 88:56, Completed Pass
    89:02 - 89:05, Completed Key Pass, Completed Chance Creation, Endline Cross to back post, 6 yards out, Allie Long connects with header, not enough power.
    89:39 - 89:41, Turnover in Possession
    91:22 - 91:22, Completed Pass
    91:26 - 91:28, Completed Pass
     
  18. taosjohn

    taosjohn Member+

    Dec 23, 2004
    taos,nm
    Agree. The effort is well worth it, and the subjectivity issue doesn't concern me too much even though I disagree with you a lot on stuff; anyone's subjectivity will tend to self-correct when analysis is tied to the whole process rather than just those things that make an initial impression.

    I would make include three cautions though-- well cpthomas already made the first, I'm just agreeing with it-- which stem from the same basic thing and which may have been more extreme in that game than most.

    The opponent is not really a constant, changes somewhat at different times in a player's game. Reducing their game to individual's lists filters out:

    1. The time in the game; Columbia were not match fit at all and wore down very very quickly. Numbers compiled in the first 15-20 minutes will normally be impacted by the process of your own team becoming "entrained" as drummer say-- getting your initial timing integrated to each other. But in this case roughly by the time that process was mature, the opponent was at the state they would normally be at 60-70 minutes. Your time signatures will be very important sometimes...

    2. Your own tactics. It seemed clear to me that the U.S. focus/intent/strategy was to attack a perceived weakness on their left, attacking it from the corner rather than what in hockey would be called "the point." That is my subjective impression anyway, and if true it would put a somewhat different value on events on that side of the field beyond the players own talent. That is, if everybody has been asked to look for opportunities on the left, they will attempt things on that side that they might not naturally, and that would have nothing to do with their dominant foot or vision or whatever.

    3. Switches and substitutions, both your own and the other team's. We tend to try a given player's luck on each side in the first half, and we also will switch for most of a game sometimes after ten or twenty or thirty minutes. Obviously I have no way to know if this is preplanned or Ellis' reaction to what she sees-- I would assume that sometimes it is the one and more often the other. But for example, Brunn and JJ switched sides somewhere relatively early in the game; this will affect the flow for the other players on each side and therefore affect the "meaning" of some of the left/right numbers. Or play 60 minutes on the same side as Jill Scott, and then see Aluko subbed for her-- that's going to make for very different challenges and opportunities in behind a "completed pass" or "turnover" on one of these lists.

    So I'm hugely in favor of your efforts and believe they will tell us a lot-- but I'd caution against getting so involved with them that we lose track of their limitations in embracing the enhancement to our understanding. "So and so completed 7 out of 12 attempts" may be less meaningful if we do not recognize that 5 of them were after Morgan subbed in...
     
  19. mamalia

    mamalia Member

    Apr 26, 2001
    Cincinnati OH US
    holden repped this.
  20. BlueCrimson

    BlueCrimson Member+

    North Carolina Courage
    United States
    Nov 21, 2012
    Cincinnati, Ohio
    Club:
    Sydney FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It depends- would you prefer boiled, fried, or grilled? And don't forget to pluck all the feathers off first. :D;)
     
  21. CoachJon

    CoachJon Member+

    Feb 1, 2006
    Rochester, NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I also admire @babranski's time-consuming efforts to perform assessment based on data. At first blush, I thought the categories and category definitions seemed too subjective, but as @taosjohn said "anyone's subjectivity will tend to self-correct when analysis is tied to the whole process rather than just those things that make an initial impression."
     
  22. babranski

    babranski Member+

    Dec 15, 2012
    Raleigh, NC
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You guys are right to bring up the subjectivity concerns, in my opinion that's more of an issue with this model than some of the concerns you brought up @taosjohn ... Subjectivity/bias/inconsistency can & will influence how I see something as a key pass over a simple pass, a chance created over just a key pass, and what constitutes a turnover vs a good defensive play.

    The original purpose of this model was to evaluate what made Rapinoe valuable in order identify her potential replacement on the left wing when she went down with the ACL injury. So I watched several games, recorded a plethora of stats, & then pick and chose the ones that painted Rapinoe in a good light, within reason. So this is why these stats may seem a skewed & leave important details out. The model was really meant for something specific and doesn't take a lot of other stats & factors into account.

    The first game I tested this model on.



    Rapinoe attempted a lot of ambitions passes, so it was important for me to identify & "asterisk", if you will, those ambitions. From there I developed my understand of how to quantify Chance Creations & Key Passes in a way that would be consistent with every game I did going forward.

    That consistency was very difficult, and a lot of the problems come up in this video. Looking over this I am reminded that I decided after some debate to not quantify chances an individual created for themselves to shoot as anything other than "shot". Rapinoe's goal was originally labeled as a "completed chance creation for self". Now it's just "shot". I forgot to apply that consistency to Press' wild effort from Wednesday's game. Also, the issue of how to record defensive clearances came up, such as the instance at the 2:30. I don't want to hold something like that against her with a negative stat, but if the clearance happened to have fallen to a teammate... what do I do? In the end, I just trust my gut on things like that.

    for me, things like difficulty of opposition, tactics, etc, don't influence this particular data set as much as you seem concerned about it. The model specifically addresses the end result of a players possession through the course of a game, regardless of circumstance. Playing an easy opponent? You still have to make the pass.

    The variety of stats, with enough data, gives us enough perspective where the patterns speak for themselves. Rapinoe did great in keeping possession, combining with others, & making the most of her chances when they came to her. However she tried to force the ball forward a bit much for my tastes. That's something I remember thinking watching this game, and it's something that's reinforced by the stats.

    Final Stats, Megan Rapinoe vs Australia
    5 Shots, 1 blocked, 2 off target, 2 on goal, 2 goals.

    47 Possessions
    5 Turnovers

    40 Pass Attempts
    25 Completed

    29 Key Pass Attempts
    16 Completed

    11 Attempted Chance Creations
    0 Completed

    Since there's no clock available, these times are based on the video.

    00:22, Incomplete Key Pass, Turnover
    00:25, Completed Key Pass
    00:31, Completed Key Pass
    00:40, Completed Key Pass
    00:47, Incomplete Key Pass, Chance Creation Attempted, through ball down the left seam to Klingenberg, slightly over hit.
    01:00, Completed Pass
    01:07, Completed Key Pass (Despite the difficult camera angle & switch at the inopportune time, I believe Rapinoe got a side food square off at the last second. Bad touch from Lloyd.)
    1:17, Incomplete Key Pass, Chance Creation Attempted, Spin-O-Rama in the left seam, drives at an angle to the left flank. Wild cross/shot/shross from 20 yards out, left seam.
    1:30, Shot on Goal, Goal
    2:50, Completed Pass
    2:57, Completed Key Pass
    3:08, Incomplete Pass, Attempted Chance Creation, in left seam 1v1 with full back, shifts end-line & over hits a cross.
    3:20, Turnover in Possession
    3:37, Incomplete Key Pass, Attempted Chance Creation, ambitious outside the boot direct ball down the left seam, intercepted at the defensive line.
    3:40, Completed Pass
    3:53, Incomplete Key Pass
    4:00, Completed Pass
    4:23, Incomplete Key Pass, Chance Creation Attempted, on the left flank, deep cross to far post over hit.
    4:33, Incomplete Key Pass, Chance Creation Attempted, left hash, 40 - 45 yards out, crazy banana kick direct ball attempt that doesn't work.
    4:38, Completed Pass
    4:40, Incomplete Key Pass, Chance Creation Attempted, left flank, 30 yards out. Wild in-swinging cross, cleared.
    4:50, Completed Pass
    5:27, Completed Pass
    5:30, Completed Key Pass
    5:40, Completed Key Pass
    5:50, Incomplete Key Pass, Turnover
    6:00, Shot off target
    6:10, Completed Key Pass

    HT

    6:15, Shot blocked.
    6:30, Incomplete Key Pass, Chance Creation Attempted, Long diagonal direct ball from the left flank, cleared.
    6:40, Completed Key Pass
    6:58, Completed Key Pass
    7:05, Incomplete Key Pass, Turnover
    7:14, Completed Key Pass
    7:30, Completed Key Pass
    7:40, Incomplete Key Pass, Chance Creation Attempted, Long diagonal direct ball from left flank to far post, too close to the keeper.
    7:55, Completed Key Pass
    8:00, Completed Key Pass
    8:30, Completed Key Pass
    8:50, Incomplete Key Pass, Chance Creation Attempted, Long Direct ball from the left flank smashed off of a defender a few yards away.
    8:55, Turnover in Possession
    9:03, Incomplete Key Pass, Chance Creation Attempted, Direct Ball for Wambach, cleared.
    9:08, Completed Pass
    9:15, Completed Key Pass
    9:23, Completed Pass
    9:30, Shot on Goal, Goal
    10:35, Shot off target
     
  23. babranski

    babranski Member+

    Dec 15, 2012
    Raleigh, NC
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The model is flawed, for sure. It's narrow minded & makes it hard to compare players who otherwise are not playing wing. Tobin Heath's stats become different and off when she moves to left back. It's not fair to compare the numbers of a left back with the numbers of a winger or forward in this model.

    The specificity made it sound like a good idea at a time, but the last 48 hours is making me want to scratch the model & start over.
     
  24. Michael Gibson

    Dec 23, 2014
    It was only one game, and I don't think Colombia looked match-fit. However, I thought Long and Mewis looked great in the midfield. If it were up to me (and it's not), I would start Lloyd, Long, and Brian in the Olympics with Mewis as the #1 back-up. Horan has always looked a little slow to me, not just in terms of pure speed, but also in terms of decision making. I think she would be better as a target forward type player (which is what she really is).
     
  25. lil_one

    lil_one Member+

    Nov 26, 2013
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Everyone has already made most of the comments on the game, but I did want to just say thanks and hats off to the Colombian team for showing up. Nine months without getting paid, including four months in camp, and about a year without a home game. I absolutely respect them for coming in and playing, and would give equal respect if they decided to go on strike before the April 10 game, which could still happen according to Yoreli Rincon (in a quote prior to April 6 game): "We will play the first game...but we don't know what will happen with the second game. Maybe we will play, maybe the federation will give us our money and that will change everything. But if we don't have money, we need to make some statement."
     

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