Why the US Men Will Never Win a World Cup by Beau Dure

Pretty terrible hot take. If Greece can win the Euro and Leicester can win the EPL then USA can win the World Cup. I've seen enough of Beau Dure's claptrap on this website, and one things for certain: I wouldn't pay money for it.

 

Please see my signature below.

The problem is Euro worship, for now, or worship of everything that is not American. Look at how the present regime incorporates midfielders. Alfredo Morales: Klinsmann already rejected him long ago. But because he is now starting for a BUNDESLIGA team he must be in the squad. Next to him is a 20 yr. old and by golly he just hast to start because he plays for a BUNDESLIGA team. I have nothing against the aforementioned gentlemen and I hope they make millions of dollars plying their trade. There is ample reason for their respective teams to play them weekly. The problem is that when I see them playing for the USMNT (we will not win a WC before we get rid of that moniker) they really aren't doing much of anything. They run around a lot. But everybody is happy to say "oh he didn't have his best game" or "he had one bad game" and so on. "Who would be any better?".

Basically we have to find an American solution. We must play an American team. We must find an American style of play. Credit Berhalter for playing many MLS players. Next step is for Berhaler to ask for help.That is an American thing. We manage businesses better. We are not happy to be no. 2. Get some help with the midfield, throw out the "Dutch' mandate, or the eternal question of "What would Pep do?". Get a new attitude.

Here is Egg's homework reading assignment for this weekend:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manhattan_Project

 

worst take ever. The issue is that we play players who have shown that they can compete at the game’s highest level instead of Berhalter’s stupid system and style, eh?

 

While I disagree on some of your comments regarding the current squad, (I like McKennie and I disagree with some of the roster choices and or experiments Berhalter has made for example), I strongly agree with your larger (and I believe more important) point.

I believe the most important part is that we need to be working toward establishing our own identity. There has been a great deal of talk lately about how we no longer have the same attitude that made us so difficult to play against in the past. I am not saying that has to be "the style" but it probably should be incorporated.

Everyone (I think) knows that sometimes one can give the opponent "too much respect", while other times play too aggressively (which is then criticized as being "naive"). I would argue that our mindset should lean toward the "naive" side of the scale. The "style" has to fit that mindset. Tiky taka doesn't fit that aggressive style.

Oversimplifying it, I would say we have two main tasks to reach our potential:
1) Find our "American Style"
2) Develop players that can play that style. (basically this just means good players with the right aggressive mentality. Each and every game, is a game that the players play to win...not draw or "steal" a goal but win by scoring more than the other team.)

for the first, we cannot defer to Europe as automatically being superior. That may or may not be arrogant but that is what we need. (keep in mind that arrogance is often a trait of success....in sports or otherwise. How many of the top players are not arrogant.) Point being, we need to be arrogant. I am not saying we cannot learn from Europe...the intelligent and wise pay attention to what others are doing, evaluate it and learn from both teh good and the bad. It is important, however, to not automatically assume that what is European, must automatically be better. The best become the best by surpassing the what USED to be the best.

For the second, our players have to catch up to our arrogance. What I mean is that we have to get to the point where we can back it up. We need players with skill and technique that have that arrogance. Donovan was one of our best ever but didn't have the technical skill (IMO) that some of our younger players are developing and never had that arrogance that would have made him great on the world stage.

Also, the Manhattan project is a good analogy but I believe that a better analogy in this case might be "Ford vs Ferrari".

 

we don’t need to identify our identity - we need to go back to it instead of trying to be something that’s not authentic, organic or, most importantly, a requirement for success.

our identity: hard nosed defending combining with top notch speed athleticism. Most important, a chip on our shoulder and no sense of entitlement.

 

sigh. The concept that we will overthrow the global meritocracy is lunacy. The major leagues are not better because they are in Europe - they are simply the top of a meritocratic global system. Trearing MLS and US soccer as some massively disruptive agent akin to Uber and taxis is nuts as is the concept that we have any long term competitive advantage relative to the established leagues.

We are equally likely to become the top of the global meritocracy than the Championship or China - neither of those is going to happen either.

 

If I told a guy 50 years ago that the DR could put together an arguably better baseball all star team than the whole U.S., he would have scoffed.

We don't know what the future holds for US soccer.

 

Nothing wrong with this but what you have described is primarily mentality (other than the athleticism aspect). As our players develop better and better technical skills, we will be able to do more than defend....

 

First, I wasn't talking about overthrowing anything. (not really sure where you got that) I do feel, however, that we will win a World Cup...whether that is in 10 or 50yrs I do not know. What I do believe is that if in 20 years we are still deferring to Europe as superior in every way because....it is Europe...we will have to wait longer than 20 years. One trait of a winner is that even when they are over-matched, they believe that they can win.

I don't believe we will reach our potential by using someone else's formula. We can learn and pick and choose from others but we have to play our own style. That style is/will be part mental and part stylistic.

Finally, what is true lunacy is believing that all is somehow static. How will it change? I am not sure but I am pretty sure that my opinion is not as far fetched and childish/ignorant as you make it out to be.

Considering the fact that the Championship is a second division, it probably would be lunacy....where would that place the EPL. As far as China...I'm not so sure. I am not sure I would bet against it.

Edit: Possibly, you got the overthrow bit from the video? If so, that really isn't really the message I was intending.

 

perhaps I misunderstand your points.

1. we need to create an identity

I fundamentally disagree with the premise that we don’t have an identity - we do. Unfortunately, some don’t like this identity and want to change it to one that is more charismatic.

as to your response that what I described as our identity is mentality, I think that’s a fundamental part of anyone’s identity. You yourself stated that “basically this just means good players with the right aggressive mentality.”

Furthermore, being athletic and defensive is not mental at all. There are plenty of championship caliber teams who identity is defensive: ‘85 Bears, Italian WC champs, current 76ers, Broad Street Bullies.

importantly, the thought that all that we’ve done historically is defend is flat out wrong. We defend more when playing against the elite teams and that will continue irrespective if we try to adopt a pretty style of play.

2. We need to stop looking to Europe as a solution.

It appears I don’t understand what you mean by this. you stated that we shouldn’t “defer to Europe as superior in every way because....it is Europe”:

1. don’t you think this is a straw man?
2. If not, who has said anything like this?
3. Are there not developmental programs that are better than MLS or are they thought that way “just because they are in a Europe”?
4. Are there not teams/leagues that are better than MLS or are they thought that way “just because they are in a Europe”?
5. Do you think that our best players shouldn’t go to Europe in 20 years?
6. Do you think that we should have sizable bias towards MLS and disfavor players who go abroad?

 

We just need to upgrade what used to work and got us to the next round of the World Cup instead of trying to change everything. Twenty years ago on these boards we all used to gripe that our players weren't technical enough and Hispanics were ignored. Then when MLS academies started LAG and FCD signed a bunch of very technical Hispanic players that washed out. They washed out because the teams traded athleticism for technical ability. They also learned from this and now are signing very technical players with athleticism. The US style will be built around players with both and more closely mirror France but more of a Latin flair. Big, tough fast players with skill. Reyna and Pepi are a couple of the big, physical kids on the way mixed with the Dests, Llanez and Ledezma types who are super skilled but fast and quick. The slow, small and frail technical types aren't making it through any more. Just add in the American never say die attitude and the US will scare any team they play and start having real chances at winning tournaments once these type of players are old enough to be starters.

 

Exactly.

The thought that we're remaining static is wrong - as our best players become more skilled (while retaining the athleticism that identified historic US players), we will become more technical organically.

the concept that we just decide that we're a possession team leads us to exactly where we are now - losing 3-0 to Mexico but having >50% possession.

What's funny is that we have the ability to be an elite aerial team (McKennie, Brooks, Long, Miazga are all excellent). And by elite, I mean as good any any team in the world once we find someone who can deliver a good ball. Yet, this seems to be an area we don't work on enough - I would think that it would be extremely effective to work on these movements instead of the whole field ballet that Berhalter is trying to incorporate. He is trying to boil the ocean and getting predictable results.

 

The DR worked within the existing system and found ways to excel. I don't believe that they ignored MLB and said that "we need to be arrogant and not think the US system is automatically better." Where do the best Dominican players play ball? How many of their players refuse to get drafted by MLB teams?

 

I fully agree with this but disagree with the notion that what Berhalter, Stewart and Excellency(!) want (attractive possession style) is indicative of a winning trait.

When faced vs. an elite opponent, a smart team focuses on defense. Being excellent at defensive isn't passive - it's a highly aggressive mind-set that other teams hate to face. We can be cocky in saying that "no one is going to score on us", "frustrated teams make mistakes and that's all we need" and "we have a world class dead ball capability". We can win a World Cup with this mentality and a lot sooner than if we try to emulate attractive styled programs.

The entire concept that attractive possession football is fully correlated with long-term success is suspect at best.

What the USMNT is for our elite athletes to become better technically and we're making real strides in that, irrespective of the style that the USSF wants to play.

 

Never once did I say anything of the sort. If you got that from my post, you were projecting what you thought I might say. In fact, that is one of the things I was referring too when I mentioned tiky taka. What worked very well for Spain does not belong in the US. Aside from the lack of technical ability to pull it off, I don't believe it fits the "American personality".

 

One of the key differences between what you are saying and what I said is that you are thinking more in the present and my statements were all long term. Also, you are thinking more in terms of what style of play to play while I have a general outline but believe the specifics will develop as our pool develops.

 

IMO we only have an identity if you can see it on the field. What used to be our identity is no longer. We need to get back to that.

Perhaps that is only semantics but it is part of what I was saying.

Edit:

"as to your response that what I described as our identity is mentality, I think that’s a fundamental part of anyone’s identity. You yourself stated that “basically this just means good players with the right aggressive mentality."

See above.

 

1 & 2 no. it is not a straw man. I was responding to a post that basically used this as a premise. If there is a straw man it is in your posting(s).

What do I mean? Does it mean that I feel MLS is superior? no. Is it a comment on players? no. It means that just because it comes from Europe doesn't mean it is automatically better, and more specifically, better for us. It means nothing more and nothing less. Playing style is the main thing I was thinking of. (where do you think the idea of possession based play came from? Bruce Arena?) I am not saying that we shouldn't look to Europe for ideas. If you had read my post carefully, you would have seen mention of that. I know that I covered it briefly, but the ONLY example I mentioned had nothing to do with league or player quality and only had to do with "style" (Tika Taky)

3. When did my post address this? To answer your question, yes, it sure seems that Europe (in general) does a better job of developing talent? (of course there are also confounding variables such as soccer culture that come into play as well.) Will it also be true in 10 years? I don't know. Do you?

4. See above.

5. What?

5. Since you mention it, I will answer. In 20 years, I have no idea what the world soccer scene will look like. I believe that in 20 years our best players will undoubtedly be some of the best players in the world and they should be playing in the top league(s), whether that is in the US or elsewhere I don't know. I would not put MLS in that category now. Will they be approaching that level in 10 years? I do not know. 20 years ago, I didn't know that I would be carrying a phone that could do more than my 1999 desktop computer could achieve.

6. What? When did I say that?

I apologize for seeming "curt" with my responses. I may be a bit sensitive right now but I find your "sigh" response to be condescending. (don't worry about me...I may not seem like it but I'm a big boy and will get over it.)

 

With all due respect, I don't believe Excellency said that in his post.

At the beginning of my original post, I attempted to distance my responses from personnel.

Perhaps I needed to be more clear? If so, my mistake.

Beyond that, his post said nothing about playing possession style and didn't even endorse Bernalter's "system". He endorsed playing the MLS players. I specifically disagreed without going into detail.

the larger point (IMO) is that we have to play the way that best suits the US. We can learn from others. We can take what will work for us from others (we should) but we cannot automatically defer to others and say..."Germany does this so we have to do this" without actually determining if it best for us.

I strongly disagree with some of Excellency's ideas on personnel and am not going to discuss them now. I don't see the point. I did/do agree with some/much of what he said in that specific post.

 

One last thing and then I'm done...sorry for so many posts.

compare these two quotes:
1. "We need to stop looking to Europe as a solution."
2. "We shouldn't defer to Europe in every way because...it is Europe."

I'm not an english teacher so perhaps I am wrong, but I do not believe they say the same thing.

the first, I take to mean that we shouldn't even look at European thoughts and ideas. Period. End of sentence. I think that would be a ridiculous strategy.

The second I take to mean that we shouldn't use the fact that an idea came from Europe to make us believe it is automatically the best solution. It does not mean we should not look to Europe but only that we should be looking to Europe (and South American and MLS etc) with an open mind and consider what is best for us.

Edit: in case you are wondering, the second is my quote.

 

I mean, in that case it's tough to compare when the WBC doesn't mean anything in the US. And the fact that the US went undefeated at the last edition with a squad missing most of the top US talent...

We're still producing Mike Trout-level talents and could field the deepest and most-talented team. You will just never see it, too much money and not enough prestige.

By the way, if we want to parallel dev systems, MLB teams operate academies throughout Latin America much like European soccer academies. They pluck little kids as pre-teens, and throw them into a professional environment with American and native coaching. So, although the DR does organically produce lots of little kids who are very good, almost all of the guys who get good enough to play in the Show are ones benefiting from the scounting and infrastructure put in place by MLB in the last 30-40 years.

 

Fair point and my bad in mischaracterizing excellency’s viewpoint wrt attractive soccer. My disagreement with him is his desire to play MLS players over others as a standing rule (unless they are clearly better).

 

The best Dominicans play in the DR. They only move to the US as young adults.

The point of the analogy is that things do change. The USA had a huge headstart in baseball but here we are.

 

I’ll defer on DR baseball but I was under the impression that it was MLB teams who established programs in the 80s that had huge payoffs. I’m also shocked that the best Dominicans don’t play in MLB so perhaps you meant they only come after they’re drafted (not even sure if DR players get drafted TBH).

DR wasn’t trying to upset the system but merely be a major feeder to it. sounds like a reasonable strategy for the US.