I was curious as to what political, economical or sociological factors come into play when one realizes that France is not one of the top leagues in Europe, at least in terms of Champions League or UEFA Cup success. If I'm not mistaken, and please correct me if I'm wrong, the last French team to even make a Final was Bordeaux in 1996, when they eventually lost to Bayern Munich. This seems like quite a long time for the league to go without any important success. Is it a financial issue? Could the French economy really be any worse off than the Italians or the Spaniards? It can't be a question of talent in the country considering the French won the 98 WC and the 2000 EC. Is it because these players ply their trades elsewhere? I really can't put my finger on this one and would like to know some opinions as to why the French Le Championnat is second tier when it comes to Europe, lagging well behind the EPL, Bundesliga, La Liga and Serie A. You may now enlighten me...
Simply put, the tax system in France impedes on a players ability to receive the same salaries as they would in the big 4. Theres also a mentality in France which Luis Fernandez has exemplified: In Spain you ask a guy to do something, he does it, and askes you why afterwards. In France, you ask a player to do something, he askes you why, and contemplates doing it. A lot of players in France also seem to be on vacation all the time but do show occasional flashes of brilliance. Then theres the obvious fact that other clubs buy our superstars at a young age. Marseille was the last team to be in a final (UEFA cup) in 1998 agaisnt Parma in Moscow, a game they could have won but they were missing a ************ load of good players. It's definitly not a lack of talent, had the Bosnan ruling not happened, the French league would be on par with the best of the best. Sure you say the big leagues make them better, but if the countless numbers of players didnt leave France, competition would be to great, players would know their place on the team is not assured, therefore forcing them to play up tp their potential all the time. Thats my opinion, i may be wrong.
Thanks for that...it does seem to make things difficult when all your best players are heading off for "green"-er pastures. I suppose it's the same type of situation for the Argentinians and Brazilians, but the contrast there is not as great because there aren't any other leagues immediately around them that are so wealthy and higher profiled like in Europe. Do you know if players in Monaco have this same problem with the tax system? If I recall correctly, many big name athletes in Europe officially call Monaco home because of their tax laws - does this apply to team's players as well? I remember when Monaco was very strong a few years back with Henry, Lambert, Sonny Anderson and Ikpeba up front - did something change and that's why the team broke up? Anyway, thanks for all the info and I'd appreciate many more responses and opinions.
Yeah, it annoys me. I think you have to be a citizen of Monaco to not pay taxes, the football players are generally not citizens so i think they still get taxed, someone correct me if i'm wrong here. I know the money comes from the casino, since Monaco has a fan base of about 7,000.
The great Papa Dioup basically said it all on why the French teams fail in Europe it was a good assessment I'm only gonna add a few more things I've noticed. I have noticed a lot that for some reason the French teams always play down to their opposition. They never seem to beat the teams they are supposedly superior too. Take this years UEFA Cup for example. PSG lost out to Boavista. On paper money and talent wise PSG are much superior to Boavista no question yet they can't get past them. Playing down to your opponent, always taking them lightly it happens too often. Maybe its a French I don't care lax attitude I have no idea. Bordeaux-Anderlecht again I refuse to believe Anderlecht has more talent and is richer than Bordeaux yet they still advance past them rather easily. Thats a club Bordeaux should beat but they can't. Lyon loses to a Turkish team they should beat but again they didnt show up or care. They should have been so pissed off getting knocked out of the CL and should have really taken it to this team to make a statement. So yeah the French teams dont have the wealth to compete with the big boys but they also lose a lot of games to teams they should beat. The attitude and effort of the players needs to be questioned. Also the typical French soccer fan isnt as rabid and crazy as other countrys fans so if the players falter on the field the pressure isn't as great as it would be elsewhere.
Another major factor is that most clubs are owned in whole or in part by their local municipalities. This results in the French leagues favoring parity (lowest common denominator) and exciting seasons versus the development of two or three 'super clubs'. This results in salaries not being on par with the big European clubs. Hence PSG, OL, OM tend to win their fair share of championships but nowhere near the dominance that the major clubs in Italy, Germany, Spain, England, Holland, or Portugal. The trade off is that small teams have the ability to compete, making every campaign interesting. The down side is that French teams suffer at the hands of the big European clubs. I'm not sure about this, but I heard that there was a French law regarding very strict financial constraints preventing clubs from spending more than a percentage of their total assests.
You're totally right there, there are no Reals, man yoos, or bayerns here, a bunch of teams can compete to win the league, thats what i like about the French league (to a certain extent). I was very disappointed at our results in Europe this year, Lyon had the team to go far in the ECL, PSG & Bordeaux could have also done something in the UEFA cup, i dont know what the hell happened. We can say it was kind of a fluke, i think next year we'll do better, because this year we've reached the bottom, it doesnt get worse than this. Like sportsboy said, French teams often don't take their oponents seriously, this mentality has to change.
Guingamp is currently tied for 2nd place in the league. If this was another country no way a minnow like that could be that high. Guimgamp, Nice, Sochaux all way ahead of PSG how embarassing.
Like Rayo Vallecano leading the Primera Liga in December of 1998? Like Chievo Verona in 2nd place in December of 2001?
Yes. Guingamp is small and their achievements have been great. I am reminded of Auxerre(another small town) whose long time sucess can be largely due to the great influence of Guy Roux. Small teams without a lot of money can make it to the top of the leagues. Chievo and Rayo Vallecano are two examples. Chievo is still a small team despite playing in the Serie A and from Verona. They really built themselves up and it wasn't too long ago when they were in the lower leagues.
In Holland we traditionally have Ajax, feyenoord, PSV. But we've had Heerenveen (a town of about 15.000) come in 2nd and qualify for CL. We've had Willem 2 in the CL. Last season Heerenveen - Ajax .... 5-1. And small time teams like RBC and RKC have a reputation of giving the big 3 a good run for their money at home for a sold our stadium (3000 and 5000). We have the same trouble as the French have except that most French clubs have larger fanbases. And I think French clubs have a bit more money than Dutch clubs. Still, the quality of French football is quite good. In general I would say higher than Dutch. So why you do not perform well in Europe... it's a mystery.
Its no mystery. Havent you read this entire thread ? The mystery has been solved. Everyone has said why the teams dont do well.
yeah but of all the teams they could have faced in the round of 16 they just happened to have drawn one of the 2 favorites to win it all. No luck, no luck, no luck.
Interesting thread, but Ive got a question: Does France have many non-French players in their League or are they mainly French? Alot (not all) of the big named clubs have quite a few foreign based players.
Yeah, most of the stars in France are not French, (except for the young guys like Govou, Cisse, Mexes, etc who will leave soon). Here are a few good (most are internationals) players in France that aren't French: Pochetino/Arg, Ronaldihno/Bra, Gallardo/Arg, Anderson/Bra, Edmilson/Bra, Fernandao/Bra, Sychev/Rus, Pauletta/Por, Savio/Bra, Cardetti/Arg, Nonda/Rdc, Zicos/Gre, Juninho/Bra. Established French players who look like they will stay: Carriere, Guily, Lebeef, etc.