Why do same teams go to Sudamericana as Copa Lib !!!

Discussion in 'Copa Libertadores / Sudamericana' started by crzdcolombian, Jan 13, 2008.

  1. crzdcolombian

    crzdcolombian Member+

    Jul 17, 2006
    Avon,CT
    Club:
    FC Internazionale Milano
    Nat'l Team:
    Colombia
    this is what makes me mad about the sudamericana... they shouldnt allow the same teams to play both tournies. I remember when Once Caldas won the Copa Lib and beat boca.... and then 2 months later Boca just went to Copa Sudamericana and won...

    think the Sudamericana should be like the UEFA cup where midtable teams go.... if BArca , Inter went to UEFA they would win every year.... and think its BS that America and Boca get to go each year to Sudamericana

    Colo Colo goes to both
    River/ boca both
    America went to both ......

    its like seriously the teams that go from other leagues are midtable clubs or like 5th best like the UEFA and then they have the power house of brasil, argentina, mexico there.....

    not to mention how brasil/arg get like 8 spots each, and Mexico get direct pass to 2nd round....

    its a crap tournie and we need to have it fixed... make it more like Copa Lib, and not allow the same teams to be in both as that isnt fair:mad:
     
  2. Andrés_

    Andrés_ Member

    Nov 16, 2007
    Argentina.
    Club:
    CA Independiente
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Well in theory some countries "try" to do what you say, for example Brazil sends the champion to both cups but the other teams are different, and when you look at it, you end up having the 11th(aka under midtable) team of Brazil competing in a cup, if Argentina did that it would be the same, although except for sending the champion to both you have to admit Brazil is doing the proper thing. Other than CONMEBOL doesn't care about this issue, but having the 11th team of a country in a cup evidently reflects that allowing the same team to take part in the 2 cups is absurd but also the way the spots are being given is stupid too(Argentina and Brazil together get 1/3 of the spots). In short that's why one than another thing relating CONMEBOL cups need a revamp.

    Also you got to consider that pretending to have a UEFA Cup like tournament in South America is a bit hard because it's ok to have a main Cup with 32 teams but there being only 10 countries in the region clearly reduces the number of possible contendants(If you see in the groups stage of the Champions League there were clubs from over 15 different countries), so in reality having a 2nd cup in South America may be useless.

    I'm actually a bit worried that CONMEBOL and specially FOX Sports are trying to impose the Sudamericana as a cup with the same importance of the Libertadores.
     
  3. crzdcolombian

    crzdcolombian Member+

    Jul 17, 2006
    Avon,CT
    Club:
    FC Internazionale Milano
    Nat'l Team:
    Colombia
    its cause a mexi team won 2 years ago and America got to the final.....

    i know about everyone in the colombian form makes fun of the tournie and then when millos was in the semi people were changing their mind ahha

    I think the sudamericana should be mid table teams... NO MORE BOCA !! OR RIVER especially if they get bys...

    and no more bys in it either

    Should be just like Copa Libs, groups of 4 teams and best two of them make it...

    Im tired of this Colo-Colo thing then winner wins best of Peru... or Ven

    that is stupid, why should all colombia, or any other SA country but the big 2 only have 1 team in the 2nd round??
     
  4. Arango82

    Arango82 Member

    Jan 17, 2007
    Venezuela
    Club:
    Caracas FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Venezuela
    I tought the whole point of Copa Sudamericana was to make teams like Boca and River richer. You know winning bonus, plus commercial deals, and the whole recopa thing.
     
  5. lond2345

    lond2345 Member

    Aug 19, 2002
    USA
    Conmebol is all about squeezing ratings and money. They will do anything to get boca/river and the usual suspects even if they had 4 tournaments already. I wish sudamericana was more like the uefa cup so we could see different teams other than the usual suspects.

    http://www.laopinionlatina.com (La Voz De Los Latinos!)
     
  6. efernandez9

    efernandez9 Member

    Jun 6, 1999
    Joe Pool Lake
    the whole concept got screw up in both tournaments. since conmebol does not regulate how EACH COUNTRY sends their own reps to both competitions!

    that is the fking problem

    libertadores SHOULD BE for champs and runner ups from each member's last inmediate tournament - the 3rd team that goes to repechajes must be the team from a country with the most points in that PAST yr

    NIssan/suramericana: for 4th and 5th placed teams per liga, or the losers of repechajes from early in the yr..........

    too many argies and bracas mess the equation too and the BALANCE OF THINGS!
     
  7. Andrés_

    Andrés_ Member

    Nov 16, 2007
    Argentina.
    Club:
    CA Independiente
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Common sense would say that CONMEBOL should have some control over that, but CONMEBOL lacks it.:mad:

    Also in order to have different teams or the losers of the play-off which would also make sense, the Libertadores and the Sudamericana should be played at the same time, and evidently CONMEBOL doesn't want that, they want to milk money having 2 tournaments on each semester of the year and labelling them to be "different".
     
  8. BocaFan

    BocaFan Member+

    Aug 18, 2003
    Brooklyn, NY
    Yeah, that would be a massive improvement. Still though, I would prefer that the Copa Sudamericana be distinctly different rather than a consolation tournament.

    Why not have a domestic cup competition in all 12 leagues in the Americas (similar to what Brasil and the USA have now), and the 12 winners advance to the international segment of the “Copa Sudamericana” which would resemble UEFA’s old Cup Winners’ Cup.
     
  9. Andrés_

    Andrés_ Member

    Nov 16, 2007
    Argentina.
    Club:
    CA Independiente
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    I don't know about the other countries, but in Argentina it'd be very complicated to do because the big teams have too much bitching about playing twice a week, except if we did like in Brazil were the clubs taking part in the Libertadores don't play the domestic cup, but i don't know.
     
  10. zasal911

    zasal911 Member

    Sep 1, 2000
    The only thing is that Concacaf would have to be onboard. Otherwise you'd end up with the best Mexican teams taking on mid-table Conmebol teams
     
  11. crzdcolombian

    crzdcolombian Member+

    Jul 17, 2006
    Avon,CT
    Club:
    FC Internazionale Milano
    Nat'l Team:
    Colombia
    which is what happens in the sudamericana...

    Colo Colo, Boca, River,Sao Pablo, America shouldnt be in the same tournie as Arsenal, Millos ..... the level of soccer is no were near each other and the only reason these small teams went any where is cause the big teams just dont take it as serious
     
  12. efernandez9

    efernandez9 Member

    Jun 6, 1999
    Joe Pool Lake
    UEFA cup VS champions cup

    the model is good.....champs in in one cup along with runners ups

    the mid table teams in the other CUP
     
  13. argentine soccer fan

    Staff Member

    Jan 18, 2001
    San Francisco Bay Area
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    I do think that it would be nice if Sudamericana is for teams that don't make Libertadores. Let Boca, Sao Paulo, Colo-colo etc play Libertadores and let the Arsenals, Cucutas, Paranaenses play Sudamericana.

    But, do we seriously want to use Europe as a model?

    In Europe some teams also play both Champions league and UEFA cup in the same year. The losers from Champions make it to UEFA. In fact, the whole qualifying process for UEFA cup is rather complicated and rather ridiculous. Why would we want CONMEBOL to emulate it?

    And for those who complain about Brazil and Argentina having too many teams, you should be aware that UEFA also gives more berths to the clubs from the stronger leagues.
     
  14. argentine soccer fan

    Staff Member

    Jan 18, 2001
    San Francisco Bay Area
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    In fact, I looked it up. Here is the qualification process for UEFA cup.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_Cup#Qualification

    Yeah, Sudamericana sucks, but I wouldn't use the above as an example of the way we should go.
     
  15. crzdcolombian

    crzdcolombian Member+

    Jul 17, 2006
    Avon,CT
    Club:
    FC Internazionale Milano
    Nat'l Team:
    Colombia
    think that Arg and brasil have an acceptable amount of teams in the Copa Lib

    but 8 teams in the Sudamericana when the other 8 countries only get 2 teams to go is bs
     
  16. locoxriver

    locoxriver Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 22, 2005
    Los Angeles
    Club:
    CA River Plate
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    First off, it's only six teams from Argentina (not 8), but even then we have to eliminate each other until there is 4 of each country in the Round of Sixteen. And even then, the Argentinean and Brazilian teams face each other in that same round, therefore leaving a maximum of 4 Argentine/Brazilian teams in the Quarter Finals.

    I'm not saying there aren't too many, but there aren't eight Argentine and Brazilian teams, due to the fact that most of those teams have to eliminate themselves before the "actual" tournament begins.
     
  17. crzdcolombian

    crzdcolombian Member+

    Jul 17, 2006
    Avon,CT
    Club:
    FC Internazionale Milano
    Nat'l Team:
    Colombia
    k sorry loco but 4 argies to the possible 1 of Colombia or Peru.....

    or 1 Paraguay/chile to me is not fair

    make them groups of 4 like copa libs is the only way to make this fair
     
  18. El_LatinLover

    El_LatinLover BigSoccer Supporter

    Nov 27, 2007
    The Poorside
    Club:
    CD Chivas de Guadalajara
    I agree with you my friend, look at us, we've been doing libertadores for only a few years and we have three spots, its all money, and only money . . . .well not only money but its mostly money. I'm sure there are some strings pulled here and there in conmebol.
     
  19. El_LatinLover

    El_LatinLover BigSoccer Supporter

    Nov 27, 2007
    The Poorside
    Club:
    CD Chivas de Guadalajara
    Wow, what bolas you have my little argie friend, you must like laughing at your fellow conmebol friends by saying "only six teams". And even more sarcasm "and even then the argentinean and brazilian teams face each other in the same round, therefore leaving a max. of 4 argies/zilian teams in the quarter finals" Thems sure some conmebolas right there, wow you love insult to injury my friend. You are all brothers, with bolivianz, peruvianz, etc. be nice.
     
  20. locoxriver

    locoxriver Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 22, 2005
    Los Angeles
    Club:
    CA River Plate
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Your post in the other Libertadores thread says it all:

    Either way, we all know you are a sock. Nice attempt to enfuriate me though. :rolleyes:
     
  21. paserica

    paserica New Member

    Jan 24, 2008
    copa libertadores must be played at all season, starting in march and finishing in december.....and then a second cup (the old copa conmebol in the 90´s)...for minor teams....

    i like the idea of national cups too....and other idea could be the union between conmebol and concacaf....and play all americas competition...a libertadores league...
     
  22. ferx203

    ferx203 Member

    Aug 18, 2004
    Chile
    Libertadores: 16 equipos
    - 4 semifinalistas de la última Libertadores
    - 2 finalistas de la última Sudamericana
    - 10 campeones nacionales

    Sudamericana: 30 equipos
    - 3 equipos por cada por país

    Recopa Sudamericana
    - Campeón de la Libertadores v/s Campeón de la Sudamericana

    ------------------

    Formatos

    Libertadores:
    - 1º Ronda: 4 grupos de 4 equipos
    - 2º Ronda: 2 grupos de 4 equipos
    - Semifinales: Partidos únicos donde los 1º reciben a los 2º
    - Final: Partido único (rotación de sede anualmente entre los 10 países).

    Sudamericana:
    - 1º Ronda: 5 zonas de 2 países, con rotación similar a la Copa Libertadores de la década de los 80. En cada zona los 3 equipos de un país se enfrentan a los 3 equipos del otro país (6 partidos en total), no enfrentándose los equipos de un mismo país entre sí.
    - 2º Ronda: Clasifican 3 equipos por zona + el mejor cuarto lugar. Eliminación por parejas en partidos de ida y vuelta, similar a lo utilizado actualmente en la Libertadores (1-16, 2-15, 3-14, etc.)
    - Final: Partido único (rotación de sede anualmente entre los 10 países).

    Recopa:
    - Partido único, sede a licitar por la Conmebol, pudiendo jugarse en un país diferente a los 10 integrantes de la confederación.

    -----------

    Programación Anual:

    - Febrero-Mayo: 1º Ronda de ambas copas, una semana Libertadores, una semana Sudamericana, no se ocupan semanas en donde haya fechas FIFA.

    - Agosto: 2 fechas de la 2º Ronda de la Libertadores y Octavos de Final de la Sudamericana.

    - Septiembre: 2 fechas de la 2º Ronda de la Libertadores y Cuartos de Final de la Sudamericana.

    - Octubre: 2 fechas de la 2º Ronda de la Libertadores y Semifinales de la Sudamericana.

    - Noviembre: Semifinales de la Libertadores (semana 1), Final de la Sudamericana (semana 2), Final de la Libertadores (semana 3).

    - Diciembre: Recopa Sudamericana.

    ---------------

    Simulación de Participantes 2008

    Libertadores: 16 equipos
    - 4 semifinalistas de la última Libertadores: Boca Juniors (ARG), Santos (BRA), Gremio (BRA) y Cúcuta (COL).
    - 2 finalistas de la última Sudamericana: Arsenal (ARG) y Millonarios (COL) (reemplazando a América de México).
    - 10 campeones nacionales: Estudiantes (ARG), Real Potosí (BOL), Sao Paulo (BRA), Atl. Nacional (COL), Colo-Colo (CHI), LDU Quito (ECU), Libertad (PAR), U: San Martín (PER), Danubio (URU), Caracas (VEN)

    Sudamericana: 30 equipos
    - ARG: San Lorenzo, River, Lanús
    - BOL: San José, La Paz FC, Bolívar
    - BRA: Flamengo, Fluminense, Cruzeiro
    - COL: Boyacá Chicó, La Equidad, Huila
    - CHI: U. Católica, Audax Italiano, U. de Chile
    - ECU: Cuenca, Olmedo, Azogues
    - PAR: Sp. Luqueño, Cerro Porteño, Olimpia
    - PER: Bolognesi, Cienciano, Sp. Ancash
    - URU: Peñarol, Defensor, Wanderers
    - VEN: UA Maracaibo, Mineros Guayana, Zamora
     
  23. Andrés_

    Andrés_ Member

    Nov 16, 2007
    Argentina.
    Club:
    CA Independiente
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Ese calendario esta bien, yo le cambiara nada más lo de como entran los equipos a la Libertadores, eso de finalistas y semi-finalistas, en lo personal no me gusta mucho, puede que el campeón de la edición anterior pero no más que eso y después de los grupos tendria que ser eliminación directa. Y sino la otra seria mantener la Libertadores con 32 y meter 16, más o menos, en la Sudamericana.
     
  24. Creu

    Creu New Member

    Mar 3, 2008

    That's because there are less teams competing and Mexico has done better in those tournaments. Copa Sdamericana will never be more important than Libertadores, specially because of the World Tournament that the Libertadores leads up to.

    I'll go a step further though, and say that a few comentators on those channels are very biased and unprofessional when narrating most games. They pick sides, and comment like girls when the team they like gets their asses beat..very unprofessional imho
    :p:(:mad:
     
  25. crzdcolombian

    crzdcolombian Member+

    Jul 17, 2006
    Avon,CT
    Club:
    FC Internazionale Milano
    Nat'l Team:
    Colombia
    no way comenbol will have a tournie where brasil and argentina dont have at least 3x more teams than everyone else

    will never happen
     

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