I just responded to a post on the beautiful game forum where italians got called out for being boring. what I don't get is that people don't update their stereotypes. If you watched the world cup, Italy did not play catenaccio and every game in which they didn't have a man sent off scored at least two goals (france also considering toni was onside versus france), and that was even with the bad luck of hitting at least four crossbars and having some very nice saves and other close calls. plus, just look at the italian formation. people act like italy plays three d-mids essentially, like greece did in euro 2004, or play a back four with four cbs or something, the preferred formation for italy against all but the best teams is a 4-3-1-2 or 4-4-2 or something similar, with two forwards, a trequartista, center-mid or winger (or both if no trequartista), a deep-lying playmaker, and two fullbacks that push forward very often. How is that any more defensive than portugal or spain or france? Only versus the best teams do we usually play a 4-4-1-1 and then use offensive oriented subs, once the defense has tired down, not exactly the most defensive formation/mindset. If anything, the reason the qualifiers are more defensive is because of the smaller teams who go into a game hoping for a nil-nil draw or some lucky counter or set piece and win 1-0. Do some people actually think that Italy goes into some of these qualifiers against georgia or lithuania, etc. and plays for a 0-0 draw? Everyone has a right to their opinion, but I think that some people are just wrong when it comes to italian soccer, especially in recent years. Italy has some of the most technically skilled and gifted mids and forwards around. One more thing, as an example of offensive football he used portugal, who scored 1 goal in their three elimination games in the world cup, and once england went down to ten men and had no striking options other than a fatigued peter crouch, they didn't push at all and went to pks, almost seemed to play for pks, yet they are a great example of attacking football while italy is a backwards footballing nation stuck in catenaccio? why the double standard, because de rossi doesn't do unnecessary stepovers forty yards from the goal? (I'm not trying to attack c. ronaldo or portugal, they are a good footballing nation and he is a fine young player with lots of potential, just using them because the other poster used them as an example). Thoughts?
Because Italy are gernerally the best at defense. They are to defense what brazil is to offense and it erks people to think a team can pull something off without a great offensive style. Untill people learn to accept defensive talent italy won't get the respect they deserve year in and year out. Look at this past world cup. Zidane won the player of the tourny but barely and the player who I obviously thought should have was a defensive player from italy. This is unheard of, but speaks to what kind of defensive talent italy puts out. Truth is though, it is boring compared to south american soccer. I just watched the Boca game and although undisiplined and crazy at times, as a fan I loved it. The purest soccer fan alway appreciate what Italy accomplishes because they actally understand what Italy the team is doing when they look boring.
Simply put, people are stupid. The catenaccio era in Italy has long been gone, today's Italian teams play in full attack. In my opinion, Serie A could be considered more offensive-styled than the English Premiership League. Just looking at some of the games shows that catenaccio is no longer an issue. Italy has had historically powerful defenses. That does not mean necessarily that Italy is a defensive-playing squad [anymore]. After all, just Saturday afternoon, Donadoni unvealed a 4-3-3 formation against Ukraine. That can hardly be considered a defensive strategy. I think most people are simply frustrated with the ability of Italy's defense to cope with attacking threats. Ukraine's strikers, although they had a lot of shots, could hardly even penetrate the Italian penalty box. Most of the shots were from far away. So much jealousy exists for the Italian team....Why care? After all, Italy won the World Cup, so who cares if it was by 'boring Italian football'? Besides, the English haven't won anything in the past 50 years with their so-called 'exciting football', and Heaven knows the Americans will never win anything (MLS is CRAP).
last season, after that crucial game between Juve and Milan (0-0) .. the press hit on the way Capello played which was "boring" or in the Italian dictionary "tactical" capello's respond was " i played with what i've got" and he is right ! if you get kaka, sheva , and pirlo .. of course you will play an entertained and enjoyable game . Italy National team depends on their best players which come from the back lines. so, it is a wisdom to play defensively and count on the counter attack since you are strong on the defense . still IMO, most of the Italian coaches have the defensive mentality until now , yet Serie A has become little bid OPEN than before . at last, i would love to see more foreign coaches in Serie A which will be better .
I would say that most non-azzurri supporters use the quickest and easy response to our game and call it boring because they have not been as successful as Italia.I was watching a Chelsea game and one of the commentators commented on how Shevchenko in a goal drought reason was because from Serie A was a slower league...get real.Weather it's the league game or our national team they don't like us period.Besides last years total goals from both EPL and Serie A the top 20 scorers in each league Serie A had more goals....
Yes simply put, people are ignorant and alot of them SPEAK without actually watching the games. They just always assume thats how italy plays and its very unfair. I agree that Italy needs to play more offensive especially against stronger teams, but they do not play defensive because that doesnt make sense in today's football. YOu cant play defense for the whole 90 minutes, things have changed alot and teams play alot better now days.
The English are arrogant about their league and their national squad. The fact of it is, the EPL and the English national team pale in comparison to Serie A and the Nazionale, and to most other major European squads and leagues, in my opinion! Who cares about what they think?
No one can comapre their squad to Italy EXCEPT Brazil and France . but to be honest, EPL recently has been the (Serie A during the 90s). They got many stars and so many over-sea tycons which remind me of the seven sisters in Seire A (milan, inter, juve, lazio, roma, parma, and viola) and the great competiton between them at that time. EPL is a better environment for FOOTBALL . Stadium, rythem, financially,etc. but still for me and others Serie A is like old coffee, you can not get rid of. notice: better environment does not mean best teams .
Bloody oath it is 47 more goals in Serie A last season compared to the EPL. Playing beautiful football, constantly moving the ball forward not like the EPL who pass the ball in their own defensive half for half a day then boot it forward. In italy if a team can't find its way through the defence they don't end up kicking the ball into the box out of hope. Counter attacks are awesome the best in the world, where you have players starting wide who either cut in or overlap the pass. I could write a 5000 word report on this, so i decided to just write a couple of quick points. Italian football is much more exciting, perfect runs, perfect counter attacks, perfect passes, and best defending. Australia got out of the habbit of "english football" before the WC, playing under hiddink. In a space of 18 months, Australia looked better than England in how they played in the WC.
Regarding EPL: Not every player can play in that league cuz of their style of play. The reason England cannot win the world cup is cuz that style of football, is not a winning style of football. It can be entertaining and people like it cuz of the speed, but its also their camera angles and how great the cameras can follow the action that people like their league. Otherwise, EPL sucks!
100 per cent correct. That's football and there aren't the flukey goals. Look at Henry and Bergkamp. They score flukey goals for the Arse but played crap in Italy. Sadly, since Guus has gone, the English style is starting to return.
just a last gasp criticism by losers. How about this, haters ? When your team have a plaque outside a stadium commerating the "Game of the Century" (Italia Vs Germany, WC'70) like is outside the Azteca in Mexico City, only then you can talk In 2006, Group E was clearly the most exciting group. All teams played exciting, Italy included. Game of the Tournament was the semi final (again, Italy Vs Germany) Or do people really want to convince us, England Vs Paraguay, Mexico Vs Angola, England Vs Ecuador, Switzerland Vs Ukraine, Germany Vs Sweden, Ecuador Vs Costa Rica, Angola Vs Portgual, Switzerland Vs France were more exciting than any of Italy's games ?
good point, pabs. when other teams strugle versus "lesser" teams, like england versus ecuador, or france versus korea or switzerland, it's because the underdog played such negative football, but if italy beats ghana 2-0, and hits the post and has some other good chances, but doesn't win 4-nil, then they played catenaccio. plus, the only times in the world cup italy really didn't push offensively was in the australia game for most of the second half (a man down, but pushed once totti came in), and the last sixty minutes versus france, but with france what people forget is that for the first 60 minutes italy had the much better chances, as they had two goals in the run of play (counting the toni goal), and hit a post, after the 120 minutes of fast-paced football versus germany, though, the legs gave out and there was no way to continue pushing in the summer heat and humidity, as france, with their realtively slower paced 90 minute game versus portugal had their legs in the second half. italy was "negative" because they had to be as totti and toni were both gassed.
One last thing it's also intertesting to note that people proclaim SAcan's to play with more skill than Europeans (lol) but the whole concept of "catenaccio" was introduced to the Italian game by an Argentine, Helenio Herrara.
One of the main reasons the general population rate our "game" boring or still refer to it as "cantenaccio" is simply because they know shit about the game!!! especially about Italian Football. Their rational... which only comes around when the world cup happens is to base their opinions on TV commentators ( especially the English ) who do a diservice when they rate our play..... Our game has changed quite a bit.... and is evolving even further. The new generation of Italian Tacticians and players are incorporating new tactics and skills. With our beautiful balance of defence ( which we have mastered ) and now the midfield - Attack! Our preperation and technical skills for our players have been challenged by the Brazilians who have set and brought the level of Football to a whole new level. It is no longer acceptable and realistic to say that Italian football is cantenaccio..... we would not survive. My dear friends we have taught the world how to play Football and in my sense of view.... but it has been our south american brothers who have raised the bar on the level of play and we are now incorporating a south american approach also to our game....The World CUP 06 was the beginning of this formula. The new generation of players in Italian football will not only delight but will show the world once again that Italia plays the best Football in the world! So for those who want to only believe what they want to see or hear..... tell them yes - we still play cantenaccio and then when they turn around looking in the opposite direction - give them 4 kicks in the ass! Viva LÍtalia!!!!! Viva La Roma!!!
Where should I begin? I was born and raised in Italy and never had to deal with this kind of criticism of the Italian style until I moved here. Which makes perfect sense. After all, how many Serie A games have most people on these boards actually watched? Could most of them tell Roberto Baggio from Dino Baggio? Do they have any idea how many goals Luca Toni scored last season in the most defensively talented league in the world? Maybe the last game most of these people saw Italy play was in 1982. Maybe they don't know the difference between great defending and just collecting yellow cards. Maybe they think being talented means trying a bicycle kick instead of giving the ball to the wide open man in front of you. Maybe style is more important than subsctance to some people. Maybe they consider defense ineptitude to be more fun to watch. Maybe they watch basketball too, and prefer watching someone miss a dunk than make a layup. Maybe they like pretty flashing lights. Maybe they like to sit in the corner and eat paste. I'm not real sure. That is why I try not to avoid them.
let's take it easy on them. They're too busy watching their teams play an exciting brand of football...
Actually, I've noticed much of the criticism on these boards subside after Italy won the World Cup....Naturally, there was the post-victory attacks, but now, there seems to be genuine silence when referring to Italy, at least for the most part. Of course, those Americans are still intent on believing that they are something because they drew with the Azzurri, but who the hell cares about that? This victory has been so sweet and satisfying, who can actually say anything? If Italy played crap soccer, they wouldn't be the World Cup champions right now. I honestly don't care what people say, catenaccio has long been dead (except for the brief spell under Trapattoni) in Italy. Italy showed huge amounts of offensive soccer throughout the whole tournament. I'm sure people are going to mention the final, but I disagree. I saw Italy attack several times through both the first and the second half. Hell, Toni's disallowed goal was during the second half anyway! They did slow down and play more defensive during the Overtime period, but what can you expect? Lippi had no more subs available, while Domenech was simply reeling them in. Naturally, the Azzurri were at a disadvantage and correctly played in a more defensive approach. But just because Italy has a fabulous defense doesn't mean that it can't have an equally capable attack. Donadoni too, as emphasized a more offensive fashion to Italy's strategy. Let the few idiots that believe that Italy plays exclusively defensive soccer spew their nonsense. I mean, after all, since Italy is "catenaccista", then Germany must be even more so, for Italy outshooting the most offensive-minded squad in the tournament does not appear "defensive" in my opinion.
What I get a laugh at is the notion of Argentina playing a more attacking brand of football, yet when we compare both our games against Germany, we see this is not the case. Argentina, went into a defensive shell. Contrast to Italy who ended the game with 4 strikers (Gila, ADP, Totti, Iaquinta) As for the Final, we played better in the first half, and France played better in the Second Half and ET. Our chances only came on set plays. I have no problems admitting we didn't do much from open play. I don't care though. Because if we go by past WC history, it tells us that if a team goes to ET, they end up losing the subsequent game. As well, France still han't peaked up until the Final. I think the Final was their best game. We peaked in Game 6. There was always going to be a bit of a let off.
Vittorio Pozzo had actually started 5 forwards and 3 defenders in Italy's first two world cup triumphs. After that, Nereo Rocco invented the "catenaccio". The catenaccio however is becoming a thing of the past. Paul Gardener wrote in Soccer America that Italy played that game in the 1994 World Cup final. That was far from true however as Maldini and Baresi implored the Sacchi zone system of total soccer and Baresi kept pulling Romario & Bebeto offsideds for 3 hours of soccer. This is not to say that Italians don't play great defense because they do. The French , after playing in Italy have also learned that system also. Simone Perrotta said this summer during Italy's World Cup run, "Italians have defense in their blood". The game of defense and goalkeeper was taught, implored and indoctrinated in every Italian player after World War 2. The football schools teach it as well as the professional youth club system. A lot of those clubs for example have many former defenders and gk's as coaches and they preach the skills the way to play to every player. Fabio Petruzzi an ex Roma defender is now back at Roma coaching the Under 13's. Franco Baresi was head of the Milan youth system as is many others. Many of the foreign contingent has not really remained in Italy since 1980 and therefore, the former Italian players become youth and club coaches.
He did use five forwards but he only used two defenders. In 1934, he used Monzeglio and Allemandi and four years later he used Foni and Rava.
Yeah but mostly Luisito Monti the Argentine was mostly a defensive mid as was the romanista, Atillio Ferarris IV. At least that was how they were portrayed in the film, Il colore della vittoria. It was a film that came out in 1989 about the 1934 WC winning team that I watch now and again. Supposedly, Pozzo grouped Monti with Angelo Schiavio in the same room as bunk mates. The story went they hated each other because Monti broke his leg in a league match with Juve-Bologna. Schiavio refused to be his friend and said, "allies yes, freinds never"! Juventus defenders Umberto Caligaris & Ragioniere Virginia Rosetta were also defenders on the team but Pozzo didn't use them. He used Rosetta for the last time against the USA in a 7-1 win and that was it. The famed trio of GK Gianpiero Combi, Rosetta & Caligaris never actually played in the World Cup. Caligaris kept bugging Pozzo to play him because he wanted to reach his personal record of 60 caps in Azzurro. The "commadatore" (as he was called) Pozzo however, said in his book that even though he loved him, he wouldn't want to go against his principals. There were no subs used in those days. Gianpiero Combi played only becuase Carlo Ceresoli of Atalanta & Ambrosiana Inter, hurt his arm in training. He broke it right under Pozzo's eyes. Combi went up to Pozzo and said in Piemontese, "Allora mi toucca a mi"? So then, its up to me? Pozzo said, "Souta Piero" (sotto Piero) or get underneath (the posts) Piero. Ceresoli was also listed as the starter for the 1938 WC in France but he got hurt again. Interestingly, Pozzo had picked Nereo Rocco to be on the 1934 WC team but cut him at the end of the 6 week training camp. Supposedly, in the film anyway, Rocco kept talking about strategy and how a team should p[lay and Pozzo didn't like that. He said to the inventor of the famed catenaccio , "here there is no time for tactics or strategies. Why don't you try it out with your club team , Triestina? He said in soccer, if you score 1 goal, you must score 2. If you score two you must score 3. Don't you remember Rocco"? He also didn't pick Fulvio Bernardini. He said becuase he didn't like the way he played as he played too elegantly. He supposedly, was the first Italian sweeper/mediano midfielder. Palazzo Venezia, where Mussolini's regime/office was, wanted Pozzo to pick the popular Bernardini but he wouldn't grant it. Just thought I'd give some history of how it all started. Not many of us really know about those days.
Ceresoli must have been one unlucky guy. What is a mediano midfielder? How does it differ from the sweeper role?
I'm not sure. Mediano di spinta was an offensive mid from what I remember. Teh numbers use to be handed out on game days and it would always be accoriding to position. I wish they still had that system. I guess it stopeed when they started putting names on Jersey's in 1995. This was always the traditional set in Italian soccer. At least from the 50's-80's. 1 gk 2 right fullback 3 left back 4 mediano difensivo 5 stopper 6 libero/sweeper 7 right of left mid 8 offensive or defensive midfielder 9 center forward centro attaco 10 free playmaker 11 left wing http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mediano#Centrocampisti_puri