These are frequently the same people who go on and on about how boring baseball is and how much American football sucks.
Really? Have you ever brought this up before? Your ideas are intriguing to me, and I would like to subscribe to your newsletter.
Actually, this is the first time I have heard someone complain about this. Keep in mind that at the preceding game against Mexico, the Korean security approved the request of some US fans to take over an empty space behind one of the goals, as soon as the game started. So there was a precedent for it. Also, keep in mind that FIFA promised fan groups would be together when they offered the tickets. We paid a lot for them, almost twice what Koreans were charged. For the first 4 games all Category III US fans were assigned seats together. When my wife and I appeared at the ticket office in Seoul the morning after the Mexico game I was assigned S1 and she was assigned N1-on the opposite side of the stadium. A flurry of emails on the listserve showed that fans had been spread equally, more or less, around the stadium. Thus, our plan to congregate in Section 1. Fan plans were coordinated off Bigsoccer to avoid the heckling and disruptions that always seem to occur here. The stadium at Ulsan was never more than 60 per cent full, and many of those in attendance were Korean students who had been brought in groups to make the turnout look good. My wife asked if they could moved over to S2, equally good seats in the next section. The young Koreans agreed to move. Nobody made them do it. It really made more sense because there would have been some friction when they widly celebrated the German goal and victory had they been mixed in with the Sam's Army/U.S. Supporters section. Without my wife's efforts, finally bolstered by others who helped "squat" and hold the section, there would not have been a big US section. During this time others were yelling and waving at patches of American fans urging them to come into Section 1. Most seemed to come right away, and the section was ours. We have done this before and should do it again. In Jamaica, for the WCQ in 2001, we tied US flags to the armchairs of the seats to prevent Jamaicans from taking them. We arrived in two vans 30 minutes apart and the stadium was filling up fast.
Two quick points: 1) I apologize, I couldn't keep all those things in mind, because as I stated -- I wasn't at the WC in SK. But do keep in mind that you haven't heard the opinions of a lot of USMNT fans, and those "new" views won't always be in line or jive with yours. At times it is good to hear fresh and/or differing views. And those who hold those views won't necessarily be "bad" or "nasty" people. 2) There is a difference between questioning (i.e. asking a question in hopes of learning more) and complaining. Sorry if my post came off as a complaint, when I was clearly attempting it to be an inquiry as part of a series of questions designed to promote thought and reflection, and not to aggitate or cause comtempt. I'll be quite now. And yes, Janet's been nasty, and therefore a fan of the USMNT, since the late '80's.
Guys - last of three warnings. While I appreciate the snappy repartee - threadjackers after this post may have their access to this forum turned off for a period of time to be determined. -- Pissed off hall monitor.
The master of the unprovable hypothesis strikes again. Yeah, USMNT fans are nasty... Except for the folks that many of us have met from across the country at games who readily give up a beer and/or a burger pre-game, scream and hug each other after goals and form lifelong friendships--solely on the basis of having stood together and cheered on their team for 90 minutes. Tom, you don't like that some people on this board think that you're rididulous. Somehow that translates into an entire fan group being nasty towards each other. Preposterous. The US fan base can resemble a Star Trek convention at times. But that doesn't equate to hostility. Just geekiness and obsessiveness. If you think that the dialogue btwn BigSoccer chest thumpers is indicative of the fan base... Well, it just further proves that your ability to think and act logically is severly impaired.
Bambule, will you please lay off the personal attacks? I could not care less if some people think I am ridiculous or some people think I am mentally impaired. I keep whatever negative impressions I have of people to myself and don't put them on the Internet. I agree that most US fans are good people and USMNT games are fun events. I would not go to them if I didn't have fun. But there is a trouble-making, albeit small, minority that could be deadly to future growth in the "movement". Item: I was in Jamaica for the WCQ, as the hotel where all the fans stayed, typing a short post on Bigsoccer. A guy from the USMNT staff (not a player) came in. I told him I was finishing up and could have my computer in a second. I told him I was posting to Big Soccer for fans back home. The guy said: "Big Soccer? Those Vultures!" He launched into a torrent about negative US fans. My own feeling is we need every fan we can get and we would keep more fans and attract more if there was not so much hostility. Too many good fans have already been driven away. Don't take my anecdote as proof positive. Please read the "Offside " book by Herkskovitz and Hellerman. They return to the warring factions problem at many times during the book. They did that for a reason.
Let's make a deal. You stop using personal anecdotes to prove your point, I lay off the "personal attacks." You trot out your wife and your baby and all sorts of random happenstance on your worldly travels, yet when people call you out and point out the goofiness of your "points" you use the moderator hot button "no personal attacks" phrase. Let me put this to you clearly: If you think the future of US soccer is somehow tied into the discourse on this board -- you're misguided. Let's look at a guy like Beadling Boy. He used to post here, decided there were too many pricks, and he left. Is he still a fan of US soccer? Yep. Just doesn't hang out on BS.com. You need to lighten up about US soccer and about these boards. (And to prove the point about your anecdotes: Who friggin' cares if a staffer thinks ill of BS.com? Seriously, how does that prove your point... at all. We're fans. Individual fans say retarded ******** all the time. That's what fans do. The fact that "management" doesn't like it/can't deal with it speaks to the minor league status of soccer in the US, not about the "hostility of the fan base." You think people on Sven's staff don't bitch about English fans or fan sites? In fact, they probably don't, as they're way past the point of caring.)
That's our guy - never let it be said that he says the sky is falling. He tells you the sky might fall several years from now if we don't all watch our P's and Q's. Title IX is going to one day make Mexico's women's national team good enough to beat the US team, and that will be The End of The World. Just like it will make our swimming and diving and wrestling teams get crushed in Athens, and that will be The End of The World. Just like boorish behavior by a small minority (as if there aren't jerks in other sports' fanbases) is going to kill the growth of soccer fans in the far future and that will be The End of The World. Seems to me there are more soccer fans now than ever. I am hard pressed to believe that we're chasing many of them away by telling people when they're full of it.
Except that personal attacks are crucial to one line of this discussion, and that line is whether or not you, personally, will encounter what we'll call "resistance" because you're an American soccer fan, or because you're Tom Flannigan, and perhaps your reputation precedes you. Every one of these arguments assumes the former and absolutely discounts the latter, and that's just not wise. Whether the latter is the case or not. Later, COZ
Testify, Brother Tomasch. Tom's biggest problem is this: he wants to argue, but can't stand it when people argue back. He's a lawyer who refuses to actually debate. The best part is when he then pulls out the Clintonesque "personal attacks" response. Victimhood doesn't suit you, Tom. And then this thread gets trotted out. Unbelievable. He calls out a huge swath of MNT fans and gives virtually nothing to back it up, making only vague references to the squishy sociology in "Offsides." Outside of some sniping on an internet board, what possible evidence is there to support the first post in this thread? Be careful, Tom. It sounds like you've been listening to "Give Peace A Chance" a little too much.
When Sachin and some other guys started the US Supporters list a couple of years ago, I was eager to join in, especially since the El Sal friendly they first geared up for was in DC. Before the game even started, I was disgusted. One of the guys who was riling the group up did nothing but criticize Sam's Army. That was the message that came out, one that Sachin didn't want - we're better than them. I saw one guy who I had met at the Honduras qualifier walk away sometime during the first half. That sucked because I knew he was one of the gang that went to Korea. He knows the way to build a fan base isn't to pit fans against each other. There is a nasty element in the fan base, just like there is in any group. Hopefully, the good part of the group can outnumber the nasty element. The nasty element generally walks around with the attitude of "I know better than you." That nasty element is embodied by your online persona, Tom Flannigan. I have heard from countless people about how nice you are in person. That may be true. But your constant efforts to try and let people know they don't live up to your standards is more divisive than a few throw-away comments about personal opinions on players. I'll be at RFK when Panama rolls into town this fall, and I jhope to swing to at least one other qualie. I encourage anyone to drink a beer with me and cheer the boys on. This ******** is all in fun. I think we all realize that. Well, maybe not all of us.
I guarantee you that every staffer from a NFL or major college team has said a similar thing about sports talk radio and/or the internet. Does that make the fans of those teams "So Nasty"?
No, Bomb, don't you know that anecdotes prove one's assertion? One grandmother gets a boxing scholarship, and the whole thing goes to hell.
What a nice thread.... I haven't read everyone's comments but I have a few thoughts - as a newbie - (whatever the hell that is.) 1. I've only been to a few qualifiers so consider that while I make these remarks. 2. I was at the Honduras debacle in DC a couple years back and that was a bunch of crap. Half the stadium filled with a bunch of obnoxious Hondurans hurling bags/bottles of piss on our mates, booing the National ANthem, etc. 3. We need to all be on the same page with regards to our team. Period. 4. This is one of the reasons why my brother and I started the WCX. Come see the big Red, White and Blue at the game on Sunday. As for why we are not as united as others...well, it reminds me of one of my history lessons in college: The poor whites in Colonial Virginia had no problem beating up on even poor natives - at least they weren't Indians. AND THE WEALTHY WHITES LOVED IT - AND HAD NO PROBLEM KEEPING THEM PITTED AGAINST EACH OTHER. Same with us: There are many groups that could care less about US Soccer and not only would love for us to fail but encourage it: All foreign countries, baseball in the US, corporations that can't get the revenue that other sports offer them through advertising, ingnorant people, etc. And all the while we stay "un-united" (sic). Our boys deserve better than that. So, be loud and proud during the matches, and then work on people all other times, one at a time. Let's fill these stadiums with united, rabid, AMERICAN fans.
Well, now we're getting into the whole youth/rebellion aspect of things. The "hardcore" support is really a young person's game. The first generation of Sam's Army and MLS supporters has pretty much aged themselves out of the trenches. Some of the the pissyness between fans comes down to a parents/kids thing. "I've been going to games since 1997, and this is the way things work" vs "Those Sammers are so lame, sipping lattes at their tailgates - no passion." To be honest, it's all bull. The way to break down those stereotypes is to have better leadership. I really think it's time for Marc Spacone to release the Sam's Army trademarks - or it's time for the fans of the US National Teams to stop supporting "Marc Spacone, Inc." His absolute lack of leadership has left us in a bigger mess than we were 8 years ago. A lot of people are looking for information and organization, but nobody can get anything done. Another aspect to the problems is more troubling. And it's part of the world's problem. And that's soccer hooliganism. I'm not saying that we have a big hoolie problem, but that we do have certain segments that are drawn to the symbols and code words of hooliganism. It's a posturing and turn-off (which is a desired effect) for much of the rest of the fan base. A smaller problem, which is much more of a problem with the Womens National Team, but definitely exists with the men, is that fans have favorite players. Woe unto thou who doth sayeth anything even slightly untoward about the wrong player. Some fans wrap their personal emotional well-being around the public perception of certain professional athletes. Unfortunately there's not much we can do for - or about - those individuals. And even more unfortunately, they tend to be responsible for much of the real nastiness that goes on online. I'm not jumping into the USA/Japan post-game discussion because the US played horribly and I don't need the abuse that would come from stating my honest impressions of the game. We're seeing plenty of that on the men's side, too. The main problem seems to be that everyone tries to hold everyone else up to their own litmus test. I'm guilty of it, too. It takes a certain amount of financial sacrifice and a fairly large amount of time and effort to attend USMNT games for most fans. The more that folks invest into it, the more they feel that they have a "right" to having things the way they want.
I'm one of the quieter folks when it comes to game time. I like to concentrate on the game, personally. It's fun to sit in the supporters' sections, but that's just not going to fly with everyone. But, if I'm there supporting my team and cheering their successes, isn't that good? Isn't the ticket I purchase one ticket less for the opposing team? I just don't get this good fan/bad fan concept. I do think everyone should come in the US's colors, though. Plus, I'm a big fan of confetti and beer.
Can't we all just get along We are like a political party, with various wings all trying to get their own particular vision to be the main platform of said party, but when it comes time to fight the enemy, everyone comes under one tent. At least that's the way it should be - everyone realizing there's a bigger enemy out there - every other nat team out there - and those who get offended should realize that we are all on the same side here. I don't know why this model doesn't seem to work. I am not convinced that this problem isn't overstated here because we are all at the vanguard of the revolution (as it were) and most of us are the motivated cadres (or we have no lives, take your pick) and are sensitive to such things. Plus, there is a BigSoccer orthodoxy and woe be to those who do not toe the line and promote great malfeasance amongst the holy - so it seems magnified here.
I have been a White Sox fan my whole life, and I have heard all kinds of stories about the team and their fans. I have never heard of a fan run off the reservation by hostile fellow fans. It happens all the time with USMNT fans. Someone mentioned Beadling Boy. I avoid mentioning the faithful departed by name for a lot of reasons, one of which it is so painful to write about dedicated fans who have been heckled and hounded out of the movement by fellow fans. A year ago on these boards I pointed out that you don't just go out and create another Beadling Boy. We haven't found a replacement for him because he is pretty unique. He is a highly intelligent person who provided wonderful translations of newspaper articles from our opponents, among other contributions.
So, just askin' - are we sure Beadling Boy is no longer a soccer fan or a USMNT fan? Or is that he's just not on Bigsoccer anymore? Because if he's just not on Bigsoccer anymore, your argument loses some weight. I seriously doubt this is the only message board community in all the internet where people take potshots at each other and some people get fed up with it and leave.
There in lies the problem Tom. People get run off the reservation as you say or abandon their local MLS side when they feel they're being underapreciated by the Front Office not because they are a passionate fan but because they feel as though they have some sense of self importance from being in a relatively insolated social group. Sports like baseball don't have that same kind of association. Andy made a valid point about the sort of culture clash that exists within the American soccer community between young and old. I'd much prefer to be a part of a supporters section that is a bunch of guys and gals going nuts as opposed to some dude with a funny hat sipping on guiness. Because we're still a relatively few number of people it all seems very cliquey to me at times, which is fine but I'm a young guy and more of a traditional sports fan. I'm not really interested in being part of a 'movement' or 'cause.' No cross waiting for me thank you. I just want to raise my hand and be counted as a lover of the game, because imo that's really what it's all about. People on these boards talk all the time about having to fight to get respect for the game. I think the easiest way get respect for the game is to continue to have more people raise their hands and say, 'I'm a fan.' But I digress. The indie rockness of the American Soccer Community honestly kind of turns me off but that sentiment relates to the issue at hand because until we get beyond a point where the sport is the only thing that matters I think we'll continue to see these sorts of problems. These fans feel disrespected and underapreciated imo because they feel that there's something inherently special and unique about being a soccer fan and that all those around them should recognize that. It's this 'self ownership' that I think is the problem. It's not about any one person, one mindset or one group, it's about the game. The appeal to me isn't meeting up for a few pints with the lads, having a kick around in some quarterly meeting of the American Soccer Ners Association. It's simply about the game. As Kenn points out I don't knock if any of these people stopped going to games or just stopped posting on here. But I see people all the time on the Revs boards who claim that they're abandoning the team because they feel underapreciated. Right now I don't have a job and have virtually no money so I haven't been able to go to any MLS games this season yet. I really hope to be in a better situation by the end of the summer so I can start throwign my voice behind the game in this country. I'm pretty new to being a passionate soccer fan and can't wait to watch the qualifiers, but I'll be doing it because I've grown to love the game, not because I'm searching to fit in somehwere.
https://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/search.php?searchid=114671 http://www.usldiscussions.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile;u=00000349 I still read his posts regularly on the USL boards, actually, where his hometown team is better represented. But if he got run off by idiotic belligerence, it's hard to see it, and he sure didn't make a big deal about it.