About a year ago there was a newbie in the US men forum and he expressed enthusiasm to find an internet discussion group on the USMNT. Nancyb posted a warning; put on the flak jacket, or be aware of the nastiness here. Something like that. I have had some differences with nancyb but she is a good moderator and only spoke the truth here. I made a note of the newbie’s screen name. He didn’t post after a certain point. With club teams, rancor is good for business. If people really get wound up backing one Delaware Corporation against another, you get more buzz and more ticket sales. Trash talking and fan-baiting, within some limits, can be a good thing. If people say Chicago is a cow town or blast New York, that is part of building league rivalries. It is totally different for the USMNT. We have thousands of basketball and football teams; we have one national team. The rest of the world is crazy about men’s soccer and the USMNT is the one they love to beat up on. They don’t care if we have a great swimming team. They care about soccer. We all know the difficulties fans of the USMNT face in seeing the team succeed and gain support, especially partisan fans who can make a difference at crucial games. We are about to start qualifying, and I don’t think we are any better off in terms of fan support than we were 4 years ago. Crowds have been small. Last night’s game wasn’t even on TV for most people. A more serious problem is the sniping and antagonism among USMNT fans. We support the same team, but it is hard to divine that sometimes when you take note of internecine sniping among our small fan base. Some of the most passionate and helpful people who were around 4 years ago are gone. New ones have appeared, but you don’t grow a fan base that way. I am interested in theories explaining the ugly American fan phenomenon. I have one or two of my own, but I am interested in what others have to say.
It's because we've been attacked by all sides. "It's not soccer.." "You do not play the beautiful game..." "You Americans are so arrogant.." "You play in a weak federation.." So, we get very defensive, and as you all know, the best defense is offense. And FSW may not have the clearance of ESPN, but I don't think "most" people don't have it..
Interesting point, Sir Fozzie. I think your explanation points more towards antagonism between US fans and fans in other countires. That should cause a circling of the wagons here. What I am concerned about is how US fans often seem to go out their way to antagonize other fans, driving away new fans and making old ones give up. I have particiapted in many intenet discussion groups and I have never seen one where it was advisable-even necessary-to make the admonition that nancyb made. This is not a new phenomenon. The book "Offside" talks a bit about it in the twenties and thirties, when the ASL folded and the USMNT went into a steep decline. It is hard to put a finger on 1934 but it should be easier to figure out the present.
Good question. A better question may be why are the Bigsoccer forums so nasty. I don't know that it's limited to USMNT supporters.
Maybe it's because we, as a nation and fan base, had a little too much to drink last night. Maybe we feel a little ashamed of that, and just need to be held. Doesn't anyone every think of our feelings? Also, maybe it's not the USMNT's fans. It's just these boards? BS has some pretty mean sh-t talking people hanging around. Spouting off on all kinds of nonsense - Title IX, Chivas USA, the Native American vs. Indian debate, the Latino vs. Chicano vs. Raza debate. . . .
Good post. US fans are like indie-rock fans: Smarter than your average fan of either sports or music, and has a wider appreciation than average fans (think obscure bands/ability to debate the merits of who's #5 or #6 on the US keeper depth chart) Treats soccer/music as their passion, and has a healthy distrust of those who don't do the same Are possessive their favorite bands/players, and will defend them/him to the death Has an unspoken part of them that kind of likes the unique nature of their fandom -- just as indie fans argue over who was a fan "before they got big", some soccer fans like the inane media editorials or ranting against SportsCenter
Some good posts here, and the analogy with ardent fans of rock groups is not so far off. Concerning the behavior of Sporting Lisbon's supporters, I think hatred between fans of different nations is par for the course. It can be worse is some times and places but it part of soccer madness on a global scale. What I mean is antagonism AMONG US fans, not BETWEEN US fans and fans from other countries. Antagonism between fan groups of different nations can get out of hand but up to a certain point, it is good for business. Internecine warring and sniping among US Fans hurts the cause and hurts our chances of succeeding.
Did you come to this ephiphany before or after you spent the better part of the US-Germany game in Korea berating your fellow fans for not singing and cheering to your liking? Hypocrite.
here is the real answer: it isn't especially nasty here, compared with other boards. I post on several boards, including Man U's .It is much worse at all of these other boards.People feel disinhibited when they can post anonymously.It is not pretty, but this is NOT just a BS phenomenon, but human nature.
I hope people will ignore hostile Moderators and stick to this discussion, if they are interested in it. The USMNT is not growing its fan base, especially passionate fans, while we can see that the Catrachos, Guanacos seem to be drawing ever larger and noisier fan bases for games on US soil. I never thought that a USMNT game at Foxboro would draw so many fans for Honduras and El Salvador, but they have. Meanwhile, the passionate US fans seem to be stuck on zero in terms of an increase in numbers. I know of several fans who were very active in the last qualifier series who are finished with active support, at least in part because of the hostillity and negativity. Sure, they will watch the games on TV, but it would be better if they continued to stay involved. You don't really see this phenomenon with US fans in other sports. Why is that?
Tom: then you missed the Gold Cup games at Gilette, the Honduras game at RFK, etcetera etcetera.. Since America is such a hodge podge of ethnicities and backgrounds and most of these groups settle together (not an enclave so to speak, but there are Portugese neighborhoods and Spanish and etc..) These games are the biggest chance for fans to "connect" with their home base. For example, when Sporting came for their tour, at the game at Gilette, whole neighborhoods seemed to come. I mean, how often would you get to see YOUR countrymen/favorite team come to the US and play a game? Not far off from "Once in a lifetime.." Combine that with the fact that soccer is a small (but growing fast) sport at the adult level in the USA...
In fact, a more serious problem is people taking things written by total strangers on a message board waaaaay too seriously and waaay too personally. It's called perspective, people.
Could it be that some people are too damn sensitive, and take disagreements as personal attacks by "big meanies"? Some individuals always seem to become victims of something-or-other. It's no coincidence. People argue on message boards. Get used to it.
I absolutely love this post. As an indie rock snob and a massive soccer fan, I could not agree more. You could add in indie films to this mix as well.
Does anyone know a good lawyer? I think I have a legitimate "tort" against some of the treatment I have encountered here.
Guys - Please stick to the topic -- OT posts may be removed. Thanks. I'm moving this discussion to Fans & Travel.
I think one of the biggest reasons fans get nasty around here is because they bring their club affiliations and biases into the MNT boards. In short - they're emotional homers who get their panties in a wad when their favorite players get honestly criticized by a group of people who don't give a rat's ass what club team they play for. Then comes the war. Example: How many times has "Twellmanfan" in its different variations come to the US boards any time a competing forward like Casey, Eddie Johnson, or Jovan Kirovski is mentioned as a potential candidate? You can almost bet those conversations are going to get nasty in a hurry. Example: DCU fans come on and belittle anyone who dares criticize Bruce Arena. Now I know there are times where that criticism is over-the-top, but even fair or well-reasoned criticism is often met with ridicule and personal attacks. Example: Just say the name Chris Armas and see what happens. It's ridiculous the emotional outbursts and lack of self-control some posters - one in particular - display when "their guy" is criticized. TF - I think this topic is a good one, but you have brought your club biases into these boards before, too, WRT Ante Razov. I wouldn't go as far as to call you a hypocrite (which I think every single person on this planet is guilty of at some point), but I bring that up just to point out how easy it is to let your emotions and biases get in the way of rational discussion. I really do think the US forums would be better off if people checked their club jerseys in at the door.
Every Nutmeg post is worth reading and he makes some very good points as usual. In the case of Armas, I remember threads here after he tore his ACL weeks before the 2002 World Cup and U.S. fans were here gloating over the injury! Concerning Razov, He was in fine form in the past two years and I felt he should have been on the World Cup squad. He is not playing so well this year so maybe he should not get much playing time, but that is a different thread. The point is, if people think Razov is lousy and should not be on the team fine, we disagree. Just don't insult or bait someone over this and we will do just fine. I didn't insult anyone over Razov, Kirovski, or Coach Arena. Or anything else. I alluded to the regional differences in my original post and Nutmeg explains it much better than I did. But I am getting at something else, something deeper. I can remember what USMNT fans were like before there was an MLS. If the MLS fails, and regional differences recede into the background, we will still have a USMNT and fans, and I am afraid, plenty of hostillity. There are many critics of Bigsoccer but that is not my point. If Bigsoccer ceases operation we will still have the same fans. I am interested in other theories and there have been some good posts, but I am afraid that what Herskovits and Ellerman talked about in Offside http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...f=sr_1_1/102-2446059-9936165?v=glance&s=books also has validity. I think there is a more fundamental, sociological explanation for the deplorable comportment of many USMNT fans.
The "tragic Mistake." Genius defense, counselor. And the reason some fans get their panties in a wad about criticizing Bruce is because a bunch of mental midgets run around hysterically when we barely beat Haiti. Some of us are smart enough to know that Bruce knows better than that. Last night is a perfect example. USMNT fans are nasty because everyone's always trying to tell them they don't know ******** about soccer. Especially other USMNT fans who sit in the front row of a World Cup game and choose to yell at other fans instead of cheering for the boys on the field.