I was mistaken only 6 assist in the EPL and one for USA 7 total. And as someone that's being touted as a creator that's horrible. Donovan in his two short stints with everton has 3 and 2 goals the first time and 6 the second with zero goals. He is more of a creator. And donovan has gone on record saying he looks to pass first before shoot. While Dempsey is the opposite. Johnnasson just started out so obviously you can't compare his life time to a seasoned vet but how about you compare them at the same point in time? AJ is much further along as a creator at the same points in their career and is currently creating more chances than Duce for himself and others.
For starters, I never claimed Dempsey was a creator to begin with. In fact, you're the one that brought Dempsey's stats into the argument in some bizarro-world attempt to prove they pale in comparison to Johansson's vastly inferior ones. Having recognized the folly in that, you now change the claim to "AJ is a better creator at this point in his career than Dempsey was" or whatever. That may be, but that's not what's being debated and it's a far cry from some of the more ridiculous claims that were originally made about Johansson (such as being the best creator behind Landon and Bradley...madness).
Well the response you quoted of mine was a conversation with someone who did say Duce was a better creator. He brought up national team history which I said wasn't fair as ones career is winding down while the others is just beginning. Which is why I responded as I did. I'm not changing my stance. I stand by him being a better creator than Dempsey at the same point in their careers and right this very second. But guess you didn't read the last sentence where I said, he's better at the same point and he's better creator now. If you looked at my original remark to you it was that Fabian, zusi and jones all had arguments to be made as well. With me edging AJ because he can create for himself or others while the others you listed are only proficient at one.
He was a better 'creator' than Duece when the latter was in college, make AJ the starter. He's more creative than Jones, Fabian, and Zusi.... Like I posted months ago, 90% of this AJ stuff is not driven by footballing considerations.
No one is forcing AJ into the starting line up cause of that... Dempsey's playing himself out of it. AJ isn't in competition with Fabian, jones or zusi. He's competing with Dempsey and Jozy two players that have been playing very poorly. Ultimately I don't see JK making the switch this late leading up to the World Cup but I think that could be a mistake that bites us if those two don't start turning things around. Jozy has shown signs of life in his last two games but Dempsey looks like a corpse out there on the field.
What has AJ done at international level? He doesn't even play the same position as Dempsey. If Dempsey is playing poorly in May, then obviously Diskerud, Donovan, or Altidore(who has played off a center forward at international level) can step into that spot. Altidore is not playing poorly; he's gotten praise from both coaches. Puyet has made moves to get better midfield support rather than to replace Jozy. Why the desperation to shoehorn the boy in? He's not even the 3rd best striker in the pool if everyone is on form.
It is simply a fact that AJ played in Dempsey's position against Austria. If Dempsey were to be replaced, AJ is a candidate for the SS/CAM role, certainly moreso than Altidore, as are Donovan and Diskerud. To claim otherwise is disingenuous. Maybe it's not something you'd do, but you don't run the show.
One match. How many times have Donovan or Diskerud played under the center forward? Suggesting he's a candidate is a far cry from 'OMG! OMG! he needs to start! preeez, lawd!!' across every blasted thread. No kidding, genius.
Who cares? You said AJ doesn't play that position. You were wrong. In fact, that's where he was the last time he played for the NT. And then you said Altidore was an option there, which by your own logic is ridiculous.
Mike Magee played goal keeper in a match. Yaaaay. Vincent Kompany played some center-forward towards the end of the Chelsea, therefore he's striker. hooraaaay. He's played off a center-forward and actually scored at club and international level.
AJ actually started the game in that role, by the manager's choice, and not out of desperation. Those situations aren't remotely comparable, and you know it. And just because I only mentioned the Austria game doesn't mean it hasn't happened more than once. Altidore in Dempsey's spot has never happened under Klinsmann, and there's little reason to suspect it ever will.
Games AJ played SS/CAM... Bosnia... Played under Jozy. Jamaica... While we started in a 4-4-2 the heat map shows he played deeper than Jozy. In fact when LD got taken off at half time his sub Zusi was in fact tracked as playing higher up the field than AJ before he was subbed off. Panama... Subbed in for mix under Jozy and then under Boyd once he replaced jozy. Scotland... We moved a lot of pieces around and had them in weird positions. But AJ was still used centrally and not as the target as Jozy was on till the 90th. Wondo played a little d to finish out. Austria... Already been covered. Every game he's been used in that role. In fact we have yet to see him in the role he plays for his club.
What the devil are you talking about? This whole foolishness began with you and clk26's assertions that Aron Johanssen is one of the most creative players on the national team because of his whopping 4 Eredivisie assists. You guys specifically compared him to Clint Dempsey, who "is just a poacher" and "a poor man's Thomas Muller". I mean, you each must've said that like 4 times. You were the one trying to downplay Dempsey's PL assists numbers, initially calling them "horrible" then trying to change the criteria after realizing how silly that position was. Those are all strange things to do if you're not trying to make a comparison to Clint Dempsey.
First off, stop that nonsense. "SS" and "CAM" are completely different roles. AJ has never been asked to fill a CAM role for the USNT. Even when Dempsey lined up as a CAM, he was so in name only. The US only very recently started playing with a true CAM and that was Donovan during the Gold Cup. A true CAM is an elite creator and Johansson hasn't done anything to show he's at that level; he's not even in the top 5 in our pool that could be considered to play there today. That's not a knock on him; the dude is a striker, not a 10. He creates some assists underneath the striker now and then, but you expect that from a support striker running off a target man. It doesn't make him Cesc Fabregas.
AJ and Dempsey don't have to play the exact same position to be in direct competition for a spot in the starting XI. Klinsmann could conceivably choose to play a 442 with Johannsson instead of a 4231 with Dempsey, if their form warranted it.
Never called him muller. I brought up the numbers because he tried to compare duces whole USA career to AJ handful of games. The 4 assists this season and counting in reference to Mix's whooping 1. And showed Dempsey other than two season never had more than 6 assists (corrected from 7). Never changed the criteria once just gave it context. Said he creates more for others at the same age and looks for others more now. Remember his season is still on going. I told you the guy I quoted said Dempsey and mix were better creators I disagree. Showed why I disagree with stats and what has been said about the players by themselves, others and what I've seen. AJ has shown he can create for himself and others. Those two don't look to do both they look for one primarily. Once again my comments were about him and Clint and mix in response to the other guy. With you we were talking just about abroad players so I never brought Clint into that but you're quoting another conversation.
They occupy the same space and have many of the same tasks. Yes there are differences but he has not been used as a 9 once for the USA which was my point. He's been used under the striker. That comment was in response to individualeleven saying he doesn't play the same spot as Dempsey ever. When in fact every USA game he's played has been the same position/role. Which by your comment seems to be that you agree.
That is incorrect. Again, you want to change the goal posts. He occupied the same basic area of the pitch as Dempsey, but did not have the same role at all. That's what makes this whole conversation dumb.
Perhaps, but the specific debate was over who could provide a more creative force in midfield. We agree now that it's Clint Dempsey, but that might not be the right answer if he's replaced by a 20-year-old version of himself in a DeLorean before the World Cup.
Yes, people have been debating that specifically. But my interest was piqued at posts #80 and #81, where it was suggested that Dempsey was playing his way out of the lineup and that AJ would replace him. IE then said no, they don't play the same position, then that was debated. Then I made my post saying it really didn't matter.
MLS squad wins 8 out of 10, IMO losing a couple mainly because of striker & goalkeeping inconsistency. When Klinsman was hired & designated US Soccer Development Czar by US Soccer, he quickly and sternly told us what we already know - task #1 is to have the best young US athletes grow up viewing soccer as a viable (read: lucrative & respected) alternative to football, basketball, etc. Bradley's move to Toronto was followed by some terrific (for a change) media stories about the growing number of US soccer players in or near their prime choosing the MLS and making salaries in the neighborhood of superstars in other sports in the US. IMHO Klinsmann's consternation about Bradly coming to the MLS makes sense in the short run - the MLS game is slower etc - but it's in the long run rediculous considering his long range assignment of DEVELOPING soccer here and making it an attractive alternative to the best young athletes in this country. I think we'll look back on Bradley's signing with Toronto on the same level as Caliguiri's shot heard round the world in importance to US soccer.