Who is the most overrated player ever, Zidane or Ronaldhino?

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by riflex, Dec 19, 2013.

  1. Sexy Beast

    Sexy Beast Member+

    Dinamo Zagreb
    Croatia
    Aug 11, 2016
    Zagreb
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Croatia
    Everybody fails to deliver eventually, it's not Messi's fault that that one rare moment he failed to deliver in 2012 meant the end of Barcelona's hope for Champions league, while when someone else fails to deliver, gets carried by their team.
    That doesn't give you the right to make that moment more important than any other moment in which he delivered. He delievered more than 100 times over the course of that year either via goal, assist, key dribbling, key pre-assist or whatever... That's more than anyone else that year, BY FAR, hence the ballon d'Or.
     
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  2. Sexy Beast

    Sexy Beast Member+

    Dinamo Zagreb
    Croatia
    Aug 11, 2016
    Zagreb
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Croatia
    #102 Sexy Beast, Nov 12, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2017
    Let's take a look at this hypotetical situation.

    Let's say Messi has performed the way he performed that game in semi final when he missed the penalty. Nothing changed about it.
    Now let's assume just one little difference, let's assume that Bojan Krkić, for example, scored a great goal before Torres scored his and sent Barcelona into final and Messi had nothing to do with in semi final,... Now they play final and they beat Bayern 1-0. Again tough match, Pedro scored it, Messi didn't register assist or anything major,.. Barcelona happens to be the first team to defend champions league.

    Now, what would happen is that another perspective on whole Messi's performance would be taken despite him doing nothing much different than he did in reality.
    Rather than saying he didn't deliver in semi final, people would say:. well he did deliver when he had to: in quarter finals vs Milan, 1/8 finals vs Bayer, etc..

    Despite him doing nothing differently, he would be worshiped rather than criticized. This is not something arbitrary. This is a major problem with evaluation of players. People just can't abstract individual performance from team performance.

    As an example of that let's look at Ronaldo's 2016 ucl campaign when he scored a hattrick vs Wolfsburg and that's it. People like you will say, he delivered when he had to... but the truth is that we can say that: "he delivered when he had to", only because he got carried by his team when he didn't deliver... semi final, final, etc..

    I am not trying to criticize Ronaldo in this post. That's not the point. The point is that nobody can deliver every single time. Now whether that time you won't deliver happens to be of huge significance goes out of your control.
    Eventually your team needs to step up. That's why football is a team sport, not tennis.

    In Messi's case in 2012, nobody helped him when he slightly failed with penalty kick... and are we really not going to mention he actually made an assist that game? That's of a huge significance.
    As far as i am considered, Messi had a great, great game vs Chelsea in semi final, excluding penalty kick.

    Just watch it for God sakes.. something you will never see again, i reckon:
     
  3. Sir_Artur

    Sir_Artur Member

    Nov 21, 2014
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    @Sexy Beast , of course I am not gonna say his failure there to score the penalty is the reason to discredit his award. I personally see Messi far better than Cr7.

    The point is not that, the point is: Double standards being used against Ronaldo. Messi 12 can win the ballandor being the most prolific of the year despite failures here or there but Ronaldo13 can not?

    I am not gonna object to Ronaldo13 being objected to if all other failures are also objected. Messi12's failure to deliver was a greater disgrace than Ronaldo13's.

    He failed in a match his side was torturing the opposition, he missed a penalty in a match like that. I think we do not need to demonstrate that scoring a penalty is eaisier than scoring a 1 on 1 position.
     
  4. Sexy Beast

    Sexy Beast Member+

    Dinamo Zagreb
    Croatia
    Aug 11, 2016
    Zagreb
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Croatia
    It's 22 goals difference between Messi's 2012 and Ronaldo's 2013... would you call me crazy if i made a comparison between Messi's 2013 (when he scored 45 goals) and Ronaldo's 2013 saying there are the same thing?.. because that's the type of thing you are doing here.. there are not even close so that you could compare them.
    And that's all with ignoring the obvious fact that Messi contributes games way more outside statistics. Ronaldo's contribution is little to none outside scoring goals

    Messi didn't fail. This is not tennis. Barcelona failed. He was extremely good in that game outside missed penalty (go check that game yourself again. He had decent amount of great efforts, he was just unlucky. The case in point are all those quotes by Chelsea's player saying that Messi was out of this world in those two games)
    I don't understand how do you even come up with shit like "his side was torturing the opposition" as relevant thing. They had possesion and majority of chances came from Messi's feet hence the good performance. Lack of luck is not equal to failing.

    Even if he failed miserably that game, it makes no ********ing difference in broader scale. 69 goals and thropyless is not the same as 91 goals and thropyless. If we add overal contribution to the amount of goals and consistency.. it's not even close. Stop trying to make those two years in any way similar. They are not.
     
  5. Sir_Artur

    Sir_Artur Member

    Nov 21, 2014
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    That is not something I am doing. I was comparing their failures, not their goals.
    Messi12 was the most prolific player of the year, so was ROnaldo13. Ronaldo13 wsa competing against Messi13 when he won,not 12.
    They both failed, albeit Messi12 had a greater disgrace.

    What you guys are saying here is Messi12 can win the award by being the most prolific player of the year but Ronaldo13 can not?

    Oh, great then Ronaldo13 did not fail. This is not tennis, Real Madrid failed.
    But when Messi missed the penalty, it was not the whole Barcelona shoting the penalty, it was only Messi who shot the penalty. You can not say Barcha missed that penalty, Messi missed it.
    That was a penalty that could have changed the history (or the future as per Barcha's point of view back then) and Messi killed that hope.
    Now again double standards.
    When Messi failes it becomes "Barcha failed, it is not a tennis."
    But when Barcha has a near torturing performance it somehow becomes due to Messi.
    The same can be said about Ronaldo13's performance vs Dortmund.

    The fact that Sexy Beast brings up "it is not a tennis" defence in favour of Messi reveals something: He does not bother to say "it is not a tennis" when Leadleader says "Lewa raped Ronaldo13," but when the sides he does not agree with says Messi missed the most crucial penalty of the most important match, he says "it is not a tennis."

    If sexy beast was honest and objective, he would have opposed leadleader as well: were Ronaldo and Lewa playing tennis? It was dortmund that raped and it was real madrid that was raped, not Lewa vs Ronaldo.

    The fact is, Messi12 failed in a time that was all dependant on him, not his team and Ronaldo13 did not have such a fate.
    So, Ronaldo's impotence against Dortmund does not make any ****ing difference.

    69 goals and thropyless is not the same as 91 goals and thropyless. =-==>>> Oh, then, do we have to conclude no one should be awarded with Ballandor unless he scored 91? or Unless he comes close to 91?
    What is the logic behind this saying? I do not understand.

    In terms of contribution: Ronaldo showed up when his country was in a do or die position, Ronaldo13 showed up and accomplished the task, Messi12 killed the chance that was totally dependant on him.

    It really is no similar in anyway, by the criteria @leadleader uses, Ronaldo13 deserves it more than Messi12, Messi12 has greater disgrace than Ronaldo13.
     
  6. Sexy Beast

    Sexy Beast Member+

    Dinamo Zagreb
    Croatia
    Aug 11, 2016
    Zagreb
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Croatia
    Messi won it by doing something we won't see ever again in our life times... what is there not to understand dude?
    "Failures" don't determine the outcome of ballon d'Or.

    I quit.
     
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  7. Sir_Artur

    Sir_Artur Member

    Nov 21, 2014
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    I agree that failures do not determine the outcome, so Leadleader's arguement can not be valid.

    Messi12 broke a great record, I think Ronaldo13 also has records even though I can not recall from the top of my head. BY the way, do you think Gerd Muller should have been granted the ballandor in the year he broke the record which was later broken by Messi12?
    by the way, if we were to determine something by the records they have, I am afraid Ronaldo would end up as the best player in history. So, let us not judge by records.
     
  8. celito

    celito Moderator
    Staff Member

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Very well put. People over complicate things when in fact it's pretty simple.
     
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  9. Sexy Beast

    Sexy Beast Member+

    Dinamo Zagreb
    Croatia
    Aug 11, 2016
    Zagreb
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Croatia
    This is a major record. Nothing specific like the most goals scored in group stages of UCL or scoring 5 goals in 9 minutes, 5 goals in one UCL match. Who the ******** cares about record like those? Everyone has the piece of those.

    This one is about a huge amount of goals scored in one year period. It's sort of the ultimate record. Are you aware of the consistency and quality you need to achieve thing like that? That doesn't require scoring 4 goals vs Malmo one game, scoring 2 goals vs Malmo another game and so on for few games vs Shakthar as well..
    It's a major record. The fact that nobody came close to it, even Messi himself, tells you the magnitude of it.
    Who the heck cares if he missed a penalty or not, he did something that we will be talking about for decades and decades to come?

    As Ray Hudson said (in his 91st goal): "It doesn't get better in world football than this people."


    About Muller thing, it's different. There were different times. A lot of players were scoring a lot of goals at the time.. i don't know what was happening that year, but he is definitely in the top of the conversation.
     
  10. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord

    Okay, since you asked and tagged me, it is (partially) subjective and at the risk of repeating myself but I'd say;

    It is indeed a good question when he rightly or wrongly became consolidated next to Pelé, with others at a tray below. At least popularly (not necessarily in polls among peers).

    This is still open to amendments but at two or more lists from between 1990 and 1995 he was placed lower than one (or more) of Pelé, Di Stefano, Cruijff, Platini or Van Basten. Then I'm not talking about tabloids but a worldwide France Football poll, Onze Mondial and Don Balon, for example.


    We need to acknowledge though that he was the best player of the 1980s (the 1980 to 1990 period) and because there are only so many decades since 1960 to pick, that already places him high up.

    Furthermore, he had no real rival in his time. While other greats had this (for example: Di Stefano - Puskas; Pele - Eusebio; Platini - Zico; Ronaldo - Zidane; Henry - Ronaldinho; Messi - Cristiano), this is not true for Maradona. Whether that is because he was so biblically good, or that the decade was not so strong (which some have suggested while making generational teams), is a question I leave open here.

    If you combine these two assumptions together, one ends up with a strong proposition. He was the best of his time and there was no rival. Furthermore, he is technically among the best in history (although it depends a bit on what one values too; I'd say Platini was a more penetrative and razor-sharp passer of the ball, and his through ball stats per 90 minutes at the World Cup are vastly superior)


    That he nevertheless, as an individual performer, has some blind spots is true as well. Most notably:

    • Some inconsistency (cf. Zidane). This already starts with that (at least) 90 of his 300 goals were penalties, and in only four club seasons he had more than 10 assists (across all competitions). Without set pieces he managed this in only one season. This inconsistency is also visible in the up-and-down form of his dribbling, resulting in that he can't boast impressive solo goals in the Serie A as a Roberto Baggio (to a lesser extent also Van Basten) slightly later could do.
    • Ultimately a lack of great or productive performances at continental level with his club. His best most probably being against Red Star Belgrade with Barcelona.
    • Three great years with the national team (1980, 1985, 1986) plus arguably two good ones (1979, 1988) but that's about it.
    • A number of significant scandals. He was protected for a long time by higher powers, until he overstepped the line too much and too often, and the House of Cards tumbled down.
    • All his major team achievements are tied to a handball. This undeniably doesn't make him a worse footballer, but also undeniably takes something away from the perceived uniqueness of certain achievements.
    • In contrast to almost all of the above mentioned greats, he was sub-standard as a 'big game scorer' (cf. Delanay and Corbett's lists). Also: the often made claim that his teams would fall down without him is not backed up by the statistics - this relates to the point of consistency and consistent influence.
     
  11. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    I have a different view on the rivalry part.

    Platini was a closer rival to Maradona than Zico to Platini. With the exception of the 1983-84 season, the following years were viewed as Platini vs Maradona due to both competing in the same league. Furthermore, Zico was more a continental rival to Maradona when both played in South America with both fighting for continental awards. I don’t think there was any serious rivalry between Platini and Zico in their heydays. If anything, it was even to a lesser degree than Rummenigge vs Maradona throughout certain periods but never universally contested in the media.

    Furthermore, some of those rivalries you mentioned were rarely in contention in the same arenas (Pelé-Eusebio). You take away the 1966 World Cup or the 1962 Intercontinental Championship, Eusebio rarely competed against Pelé. Furthermore, since they competed in different continents, none of their exploits had any significance against eachother.

    And how many seasons throughout the 1960s was Eusebio really viewed as Europe’s premier player ? He may have been no more greater than Rummenigge was to Maradona in the 1980s, which automatically would have left the floor uncontested for Pelé for most of the decade.

    In any event, true rivalries have really existed when players are pitted in the same leagues or arenas and have to beat each other. Sort of like what Magic Johnson vs Bird was in Basketball in the 1980s, that’s what Messi-Cristiano or Maradona-Platini (to a lesser degree) encountered in their generation. But this wasn’t the case with Pelé-Eusebio or Henry-Ronaldinho. There is then the odd man standing out that has to beat those great players (MJ vs Bird and Magic) but in football this is not common due to players being spread out. For a brief period in time there was a fascinating period where 4 all-time greats competed at the same time in the same league in the 1980s in Serie A but that was an exception not the rule.

    With regards to others, Puskas joined forces with Di Stefano, so that rivalry never really existed. Ditto with Zidane and Ronaldo, with the exception of their few encounters in the NT.

    The reality is that the best players of Maradona’s generation (Rummenigge, Zico, Platini, Gullit, Van Basten) in one moment or the other competed in the same league as him, but this can’t be said of the majority of the examples you provided, because in my view true rivalries must be established in the same arenas, against the same competition, fighting for the same trophy. But once a great player joins forces with another great, that rivalry ends in my view.
     
  12. leadleader

    leadleader Member+

    Aug 19, 2009
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    #112 leadleader, Nov 13, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2017
    Again with the FALSE EQUIVALENCE of comparing Messi12 with Ronaldo13. It's very simple actually: Messi12 won a trophy, Messi12 was not repeatedly outclassed by Robert Lewandowski in high profile Champions League games, Messi12 scored 22 more goals than Ronaldo13, Messi12 completed over 100 more dribbling runs than Ronaldo13, Messi12 was not the WMOTM in a Semi Final that Messi's team won by a 2 goal margin---how any of this difficult to understand??

    Ronaldo13 literally did not win a trophy, was not an amazing dribbler (not even close to it, to be honest), was repeatedly outclassed by Robert Lewandowski in important games, failed to win the Copa del Rey Final (where Diego Costa was not inferior to Ronaldo), literally was the WMOTM in (literally the most important game of the whole calendar year) a Semi Final game that Real Madrid won by a margin of 2 goals, etc. Ronaldo's 2013 BDO was full of holes to begin with, but now that we know how Ronaldo won the 2016 BDO and also the 2017 BDO---the 2013 BDO is really impossible to justify without it looking like a farce.
     
  13. Sexy Beast

    Sexy Beast Member+

    Dinamo Zagreb
    Croatia
    Aug 11, 2016
    Zagreb
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Croatia
    Tho, i would rather give him 2013 BDO than 2016 or 2017.
    I just don't buy that, "you didn't perform when you had to" bs. It's far more complicated than that.
     
  14. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #114 PuckVanHeel, Nov 14, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2017
    I can't really go along with a lot of this.

    The thing on "playing the same competition" also contradicts the parts on the national teams. At national team level players don't play "the same competition" in a tournament - it contradicts each other. So what definition of 'rivalry' and 'rivals' are really used here? We can't turn this into some sort of legal definition with an array of provisions.

    Pele and Eusebio were each others contemporaries, where their best years overlapped (for about ~5 years), their career arc sort of overlapped, and they played a dozen of times against each other as well. Yes, it was hyped up and fabricated by the media, starting after the 1961 game, but it was a legit encounter. Here below the statistical details (as posted previously):

    Show Spoiler
    This is Pele vs Eusebio head to head:

    15/06/1961 – Santos 6 x 3 Benfica – Paris, França – Torneio de Paris (2 goals Pelé, 3 goals Eusebio)
    19/09/1962 – Santos 3 x 2 Benfica – Maracanã – Mundial Interclubes (2 goals Pelé)
    11/10/1962 – Benfica 2 x 5 Santos – Lisboa – Mundial Interclubes (3 goals Pelé, 1 goal Eusebio)
    21/08/1966 – Santos 4 x 0 Benfica – New York, Estados Unidos – Torneio de New York (1 goal Pelé)
    18/08/1968 – Santos 4 x 2 Benfica – Buenos Aires, Argentina – Pentagonal de Buenos Aires (0 goals both, both played 1 half)
    01/09/1968 – Santos 3 x 3 Benfica – New York, Estados Unidos – Amistoso (1 goal Eusebio)

    Santos 5W 25 goals 8 goals Pelé (32%)
    Benfica 0W 12 goals 5 goals Eusebio (42%)

    06/05/1962 - Brazil 2 x 1 Portugal - Morumbi, Sao Paulo - Friendly (0 goals both)
    09/05/1962 - Brazil 1 x 0 Portugal - Maracana, Rio de Janeiro - Friendly (1 goal Pelé)
    21/04/1963 - Portugal 1 x 0 Brazil - Estadio da Luz, Lisbon - Friendly (0 goals both)
    24/06/1965 - Portugal 0 x 0 Brazil - Estadio das Antas - Friendly
    19/07/1966 - Brazil 1 x 3 Portugal - Goodison Park, Liverpool - World Cup (2 goals Eusebio)

    Brazil 2W 4 goals 1 goal Pelé (25%)
    Portugal 2W 5 goals 2 goals Eusebio (40%)


    Both not playing:

    08/04/1956 - Portugal 0 x 1 Brazil - Nacional, Lisbon - Friendly
    11/06/1957 - Brazil 2 x 1 Portugal - Maracana, Rio de Janeiro - Friendly
    16/06/1957 - Brazil 3 x 0 Portugal - Estadio do Pacaembu - Friendly
    30/06/1968 - Portugal 0 x 2 Brazil - Mozambique - Friendly

    Brazil 4W 8 goals
    Portugal 0W 1 goal


    Other (one of Eusebio/Pelé missing):

    23/07/1957 – Santos 3 x 2 Benfica – Vila Belmiro – Friendly (1 goal Pelé)
    07/06/1964 - Brazil 4 x 1 Portugal - Maracana, Rio de Janeiro - Nations Cup (1 goal Pelé)
    09/07/1972 - Brazil 1 x 0 Portugal - Maracana, Rio de Janeiro - Independence Cup



    Meanwhile, before 1986 the five years younger Maradona (or seven years younger than Zico) had to my knowledge only one win against Zico, Platini and Rummenigge combined - and he never beat Zico. Is that true rivalry or a sign of being a contemporary? He certainly had "in the same arena" a vastly inferior balance until 1986. Something like 18 games and one win. Maybe 20 and 2, but definitely vastly imbalanced. Not being a real contemporary helps to account for the imbalance.

    This is one of the things showing that the career arcs don't really overlap in the way others have an overlapping career (over multiple years). That is not criticizing Maradona - this observation (if valid) protects him against criticism.

    To add to this: when playing "in the same league" the 32-33 years old Zico struggled with recurring injuries in 1984-85 (but still held his unbeaten record vs DM10 with 2 goals); 29 years old Rummenigge was for two years clearly past his best and the more mature Platini won the comparison against Maradona by most accounts, until he declined because of his advancing age.

    I hope you see what I mean now with post #110.
     
  15. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    (can't edit any more)
    Likewise for team achievements until that point, the actual goals or performances against top level opponents (as discussed before) and so on. There is only a minor/sketchy overlap in career arc.
    If you take Ronaldo vs Zidane there is a strong overlap across a number of years and tournaments (in a different era with different dynamics).
     
  16. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    Because in my view it’s really hard to establish player rivalries in football. Furthermore, in attacking players it’s virtually flawed because they don’t guard each other, like great players used to do in Basketball.

    Maybe the best rivalries probably were defender vs attacking player but not forward vs forward, but even then that’s questionable because how defenders switch and rotate in a given match.

    But yes, I don’t really view those matchups as true rivalries, even less so in the case of Pelé, who made his living in the Paulista league, far away from whatever Eusebio accomplished in Portugal. And as far as Pelé, who were his main competitors in the Paulista league in more than a decade ? I think if there was any true rivalry it was occurring there and not outside.
     
  17. poetgooner

    poetgooner Member+

    Arsenal
    Nov 20, 2014
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    This is true. There's been many cases where one offensive player perform better than the other simply because he has better defensive and support talent.
     
  18. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Which is one of the things why I say there is a poor overlap - and that this observation isn't criticism.

    The phase those players were a match-winner and 'big game performer' (among other things, mentioned above) doesn't entirely overlap. I spelled out previously how the production (goals + assists) density against top opponents appear until ~1985. You'd get a comparable picture if one takes Platini and Cruijff until 1978.

    There is only a brief overlap between Platini and Maradona in the 1985 year (not really the first half of 1984-85). Outside of that year the direct comparison in specific years loses value.

    Likewise, someone like Matthaus elevated to that status when Maradona was a notch below his best (in 1989 and 1990 at least). In age he is his contemporary, but in career progression they almost miss each other. The closest is maybe Gullit, when he got the chance to directly measure himself and had a strange tendency to play very well against Napoli in particular.
     
  19. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    That’s it. The media loves to sell tabloids and headlines by pitting offensive player vs offensive player but the real battles are on the defensive end with marker vs attacker.

    Football is not Basketball or Tenis, where the best offensive weapons also defend against each other. The real rivalries in football are stopper vs attacker, libero vs striker. Great examples were Stiles vs Eusebio; Moore vs Pelé; Vogts vs Cruijff; Gentile vs Maradona and Zico; Rolff vs Platini; Matthaus vs Maradona; Baresi vs Romario.

    Those were the real marquee matchups, the real duals, real rivalry, true battles that would determine the outcome of a match and championship.


    Gullit also played for the best defensive team in Italy, AC Milan conceding only 14 goals in 1987-88 while the rest of the clubs conceded on average 30.
     
  20. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Yeah I have some sympathy for this view. Maybe I shouldn't have said 'rivals' but 'contemporaries' or 'generational peer'.

    As an aside, also in basketball the best players don't guard each other per se, but for various reasons it is understandable it is billed as such - and in the end it are often the best players that make the main difference for each team (in a game played with 5 instead of 11 - funnily even here trophies are not the be-all-end-all). In football it are almost always the attackers that *statistically* generate the most wins for a team, even in 1980s Serie A.

    It is correct that achievements by great players (Platini, Maradona, Gullit etc.) often coincide with conceding the fewest or 2nd fewest goals. Yet - and this is hard to establish over one season but can be made more useful over a full career - it is possible that the attacking or creative players have a small bearing on the goals conceded too. Depends on the player's profile as well.

    It would be preposterous to assign all the credit for the improved defense, but if you look at Gullit you see that Milan conceded 2 of their 14 goals in the two games he wasn't playing (mid season, 1 goal conceded in each game), and they conceded as well in the Coppa Italia in the game he did not play. Then in the next 1988-89 season they concede 17 goals in the 1604 minutes that he did not play (because of injury) and 8 goals in the 1456 minutes that he played. In the 1988-89 European Cup something similar showed: conceded 4 goals in the 342 minutes that he didn't play (against Red Star and Levski Sofia) and conceding 1 goal in the 498 minutes that he played. Although he isn't the very best example, it is a correlation that holds for his full career imho (explored by people who can do this better than me). AC Milan wasn't as deep in their roster until 1993 as is sometimes thought.
     
  21. wm442433

    wm442433 Member+

    Sep 19, 2014
    Club:
    FC Nantes
    Also Milan was never in the top3 before he joined them.
    Or "on the other hand".
     
  22. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    Yes, great players also indirectly may improve a team’s defense since that star will demand respect from the opposition, negating headcoaches to play their game by focusing sometimes too much on the opposing star player. This is what may have cost West Germany the final in 1986, Beckenbauer showed too much respect and in hindsight I think regretted it. That’s just an example.


    Gullit was very impressive that first season but it was also the arrival of others that truly made that team great. They really improved their defense with the arrivals of Ancelotti and Costacurta and their new manager, Arrigo Sacchi.
     
  23. wm442433

    wm442433 Member+

    Sep 19, 2014
    Club:
    FC Nantes
    That's a set of things for sure but it's the great players who make the difference.
    We can't know but I bet that Milan would not have become this Milan only due to the arrivals of Ancelotti, Costacurta and Sacchi. Not without Gullit.
    It was the third full-season of Maldini also if we want to.

    At the same time I think/ believe that Van Basten would have had more difficulties afterwards if Gullit had not paved the way in this first season of this new Milan too.
    So, for me, it is clear that if there was a detonator, it was he, Gullit.
     
  24. Sir_Artur

    Sir_Artur Member

    Nov 21, 2014
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Additional data to the post #84: "Maradona is the most overrated player in history."

    Here is a castrol top10 players of the World cup 86, 70 and 74.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    That supposed "average sided Argentina 86" had 6 players in top 10 compare it to the team that is widely regarded the best National Team ever: Brazil70, they had only 3. Netherlands 74 is also considered one of the top National teams ever, they had 5 players in top10.

    If we look deeper, Rivelino, 3rd brazilian in9. top10 who is ranked 6th in top10, had a rating of 9.38 compared to the lowest Argentinian in top 10's rating: 9.39

    Castrol rankings are based on the mistakes and correct steps footballers did, it does not indicate the whole performance, of course it can not be taken as a bible but it however shows how frequently they made mistakes, Argentinians were making less mistakes than their rivals.

    Maradona had 4 defender teammate and 1 attacking teammate in top10 compared to 2 attacking midfield teammates of Pele.

    Moreover, in Castrol's WC1986 top 10 players, Germany and Belgium, the two teams Argentina faced in semi-final and final, did not have any players in top 10.

    england, whom Maradona faced in quarter final, had only 1 player in top10 and that one is an attacking player, no any defender.
     
    Sexy Beast repped this.
  25. Sir_Artur

    Sir_Artur Member

    Nov 21, 2014
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    (Ordering is done by me)
    I do not deny Messi12 had arguements to win, the discussion was not about that. The discussion was initiated by bringing arguements AGAINST Ronaldo13 winning the ballandor, I raised an arguement against Messi12, too.

    That said, our arguements should/must be the arguements that argue against them winning the ballandor. So, the 2nd, 5th arguements are arguements that indirectly go against Ronaldo13 winning the ballandor. 3rd and 4th points argue that Mess12 was more worthy candidate to win the ballandor than Ronaldo13. 1st arguement supports Messi12 against Ronaldo13.

    Now, given the topic of the discussion,we need to deal with 2nd and 5th arguements. The 2nd arguement says:
    Messi12 was not repeatedly outclassed by Robert Lewandowski in high profile Champions League games
    What does @Sexy Beast say about it? I guess he would say "football is a team sport, it is not tennis."
    Nobody outclasses everybody every single time. Why does @Sexy Beast not say the same thing about Ronaldo? I do not know, his stance must indicate something... I leave it up to you.

    But what about the point I raised against Messi 12? He killed the chance that was totally dependant on him, not on his team as a whole. How is this difficult to understand? It is far worse than Ronaldo13 being outclassed by Lewandowski in a match his team lost 4-1.
    Ronaldo13 did not kill the chance of his team in a match his team was torturing the opposition.

    About Messi12 having more dribbles and goals than Ronaldo13, Messi 12 had more dribbles than goals than probably any winner, what does it reveal? DOes it mean no one should have won the award before Messi12?
    It is not a comparison of Ronaldo13 vs Messi 12: Who shone more? The subject is not that, the subject is: who won despite having more disgrace.
    How are they worse than Messi12 killing the chance that was totally dependant on him?
    You say Ronaldo was outclassed by Lewa and he was the worst man of the match his team won by 2-0. At least, when Ronaldo13 was outclassed his team was losing 4-1, when Messi12 killed the chance his team was torturing the opposition, Ronaldo's performance are directly affected by his team's play, Messi12's miss was totally dependant on him, on his individual abilities. Messi13 had greater disgrace than Ronaldo13.

    2012 BDO is more absurd than 2013 BDO by the criteria being used here.
     

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