I think there are too many drawbacks to an 8x4 alignment with only 34 games. I think you'd be more inclined to see 36 games with a 5/5/6 setup in each conference: LAG/LAFC/SJE/SAC/LVG/PHX AUS/DAL/HOU/SKC/STL SEA/POR/VAN/RSL/COL ATL/ORL/MIA/CLT/NSH CLB/TOR/FCC/MTL/CHI/MNU NYRB/DC/PHL/NYC/NER The division with Montreal and Minnesota is spread out, but technically speaking, Ontario borders all of Minnesota, Ohio, and Quebec. If you have to stay at 34 games, I could see playing only 8 teams from the opposite conference each year, and the remaining games would be allocated within the conference. For the 6 team divisions, you play 8 out of conference, 10 division games, and 16 in the conference outside your own division (6 teams twice, 4 teams once). For the 5 team divisions, you play 8 out of conference, 8 division games, and 18 conference games outside your division (7 teams twice, 4 teams once).
30: St Louis, Charlotte, Sacramento as expansion... *EASTERN* SOUTH: 1. Atlanta United, 2. Charlotte, 3. Nashville, 4. Orlando City, 5. Inter Miami ATLANTIC: 1. New York City FC, 2. New York Red Bulls, 3. New England Revolution, 4. Philadelphia Union, 5. DC United NORTH: 1. Toronto FC, 2. Montreal Impact, 3. Columbus Crew, 4. FC Cincinnati, 5. Chicago Fire *WESTERN* CENTRAL: 1. Minnesota United, 2. Saint Louis, 3. Sporting Kansas City, 4. Real Salt Lake, 5. Colorado Rapids PACIFIC: 1. Los Angeles FC, 2. LA Galaxy, 3. Seattle Sounders, 4. Portland Timbers, 5. Vancouver Whitecaps AMERICAN: 1. FC Dallas, 2. Houston Dynamo, 3. Austin FC, 4. San Jose Earthquakes, 5. Sacramento Republic Schedule: Play home/away inside conference: 8 games Alternate yearly home/away outside conference: 25 games Total: 33 games Other than the Dallas, Houston, SJ, Austin, Sacramento... this format has all the rivals in the same group. *One change could be to move the Cascadia teams in the SJ/Sacramento conference and the Texas and LA teams together.... that might make more sense.
As I mentioned in another thread, a 34-game schedule has one drawback with 2 conferences of 3 divisions. It's not mathematically possible for 15 teams to play 19 games each against each other, so you make Chicago-Saint Louis the extra "conference" game to complete their 34 game schedules. Chicago and Saint Louis play each other twice a year this way. The other solution is to go to 36 games, and make them permanent rivals for the 16th non-conference game; they would play everyone outside their conference once, except each other whom they play twice. Everyone then gets 20 conference games - home and away against their division mates, home and away against one team each from the other two divisions in the conference, and one game against everyone else.
32 clubs 8 groups/divisions x 4 teams, BUT no conferences 34 games 28 games against all MLS clubs from the other groups, and 6 games between teams from same group=34 games.
Pacific: LA Galaxy, LAFC, Sacramento, San Jose, Colorado, Real Salt Lake Western: Vancouver, Seattle, Portland, Austin, Dallas, Houston Central: Sporting KC, Saint Louis, Minnesota, Chicago, Cincinnati, Columbus Atlantic: New England, NY Red Bulls, NYCFC, Philadelphia, Toronto, Montreal Eastern: Charlotte, Atlanta, Nashville, Orlando, DC United, Inter Miami Make the regular season mean something by guaranteeing a first round bye to all of the division champions, and scaling the playoffs down to 11 teams. The last two divisions had the most difficult choices.
Western: Vancouver, Seattle, Portland, Austin, Dallas, Houston I don't think so. In addition Western will get confused with Pacific. Likewise Eastern and Atlantic.
I know we're all having fun trying to speculate exactly what we think or hope MLS will do as far as divisions/conferences go as expansion teams come into the league. So, I'll offer a radical or at least, unconventional idea. How about NO divisions or conferences after 2022? If we assume Sacramento, St. Louis, and Charlotte are indeed the next 3 likely MLS locales, why not try a single table of 30 teams? You play everyone at least once, with 5 opponents on the schedule twice. The top 14 teams qualify for the playoffs, with the top 2 getting a first round bye. You could break down the league into 10 groups of 3 in which sides would always play those rivals twice, then pair up the groups with each other to determine the other three teams you would see twice on your schedule. My rough sketch groups would look like this: Group 1: New England, Montreal, Toronto Group 2: New York City, New York Red Bulls, Philadelphia Group 3: DC United, Charlotte, Nashville Group 4: Atlanta United, Orlando City, Inter Miami Group 5: Columbus, Cincinnati, Chicago Group 6: Minnesota, St. Louis, Sporting Kansas City Group 7: FC Dallas, Austin, Houston Group 8: Colorado, Los Angeles Galaxy, Los Angeles FC Group 9: Sacramento, Real Salt Lake, San Jose Group 10: Portland, Seattle, Vancouver Groups 1 and 2 would play each other twice. Groups 3 and 4 would be paired together, as would Groups 5 and 6, 7 with 10, and 8 with 9. Once the league gets to 32 teams, you could keep the same framework, but reduce the 10 groups of 3 to 8 groups of 4. Of course, this is contingent upon MLS maintaining a 34 game regular season schedule.
I think for the scheduling pods, you need to have 2 return games (or more if you go above 34 games) rotate each year. Group 1: Montreal, Toronto, New England Group 2: NY Red Bulls, NYCFC, DC United, Philadelphia Group 3: Charlotte, Atlanta, Orlando, Miami Group 4: Nashville, Columbus, Cincinnati Group 5: Chicago, Saint Louis, Minnesota, Kansas City Group 6: Austin, Dallas, Houston Group 7: Colorado, LA Galaxy, LAFC Group 8: Salt Lake, San Jose, Sacramento Group 9: Vancouver, Seattle, Portland The six groups of three get return games against their two group mates, plus a third return game against another group with three teams. For example, groups 7 and 8 would use that third game for COL-RSL, LAG-SJE, and LAFC-SAC. The last two games would essentially be random for everyone, as long is it doesn't result in a third game between teams.
True, but I was just thinking about future expansion and people getting hung up about teams coming in from different parts of the country. Depending on your outlook, some teams in the middle of the country would get yo-yoed back and forth between East and West divisions, which wouldn't make it conducive to fostering regional rivalries.
STLFC has literally bounced conferences each year of its existence, and (as far as I can tell) has rivals in each conference even if they don't play every year - with a particularly good rivalry against Louisville. I don't live in STL, though, so maybe @LouCityFan can correct me. Speaking of, @LouCityFan - I love the asymmetric idea myself, but I'm a mathematician who appreciates creativity, and I bet more casual fans (and MLS board members) would balk quite a bit at the idea. But it's a really clever solution! I would love to see it actually happen, however unlikely it is.
@SiberianThunderT yes, Louisville has a rivalry with Saint Louis called the Kings Cup. I'll try to get a picture of the trophy next time I'm at Against the Grain. They brought quite a few fans earlier this year when they played at Slugger. I'm not sure much animosity Saint Louis FC fans have towards all of them, but Saint Louis is set up pretty well with Swope Park, Oklahoma City, Tulsa, Louisville, Memphis, and Nashville all reasonably close by. Depending on who leaves for League One/MLS there might be a chance the Oklahoma teams slide eastward.
Allow me to shift gears , I think we are getting ahead of ourselves until we no more about what number MLS stops at expansion it should stay East and West once you have a more concrete set up of total teams then you can can have a better idea on changes . 2020: expansion draft How will it work When MLS teams own USL teams how can they protect players ? Some of these USL teams might not get a expansion team but could serve as a USL affiliate team to a MLS team. What year will St Louis join2022 ? How will that expansion draft work and will Miami and aAustin both join in 2021 for sure ??
Well it’s Nashville & Miami next year then Austin 2021 then possibly St. Louis . Seems it would be easier to add two teams and not ever have a odd number
Easier from a scheduling standpoint but not always easier for other factors. Odd number of teams in 2007, 2009, 2012, 2013, 2014, and 2018. MLS will certainly do it.
Every year or so, I nerd out and mull over the future conference/division layout of MLS. The St. Louis announcement yesterday sparked my dive into this again. I know that the scheduling logistics are a big factor, but I’m focusing mainly on what looks to me to be a fairly simple, logical geographic projection starting with the known franchises coming in. Scheduling can be figured out later to get a 34-game schedule (or thereabouts) for whatever arrangement develops of conferences/divisions. Something reasonable can be jiggered. I favor keeping it pretty simple, even if MLS goes over 30 teams. I’d prefer not to see more than 3 regional groupings until the club count hits 36. Which it might...and if so, I think that should be the absolute max for our top tier. With USL gaining some steam and traction, smaller markets look to be well-served going forward, anyway. ESPN+ currently rocks in getting the USL a wider audience. I have more access to North American soccer than I can currently watch and stay married and employed. It’s a great problem to have. MLS conference configuration predictions: 2020: Miami and Nashville enter the East, pushing Chicago into the West (for just one season) to maintain a balance of two 13-team conferences. 7 teams from each conference make the playoffs (54%). But I wouldn’t be surprised to see 8 teams from each conference go to the playoffs (nearly 62%). 2019 is at 58%, for comparison. 2021: Austin enters the West. Chicago returns to the East and their closer rivalries. West = 13, East = 14. 8 teams from each conference make the playoffs (59%). 2022: St. Louis enters the West. Conference balance is restored. West = 14, East = 14. 8 teams from each conference make the playoffs (57%). MLS conference configuration projections post-2022: 2023-2026: Sacramento and Vegas/Phoenix enter the West. If not done in the same year, we will see West = 15, East = 14 for a time, but I expect to see at least two more teams enter MLS by 2026, conservatively. I would prefer that #29 & #30 are firmly in the West, because then we can end up with what I think is a spatially-coherent three conference system (West, Central, East). If a franchise east of the Rockies gets one of those two slots, then my wonderful plans go awry. Man, I hope Garber sees this. Then the 3 conferences of 10 clubs would look like this... WEST: LAFC, Portland, Seattle, LA Galaxy, San Jose, Real Salt Lake, Vancouver, Colorado, Sacramento, Vegas/Phoenix. CENTRAL: Minnesota, Dallas, Kansas City, Houston, Columbus, Chicago, Nashville, Austin, St. Louis, Cincinnati. EAST: Atlanta, NYCFC, Toronto, Philadelphia, NY Red Bulls, New England, Montreal, DC United, Orlando, Miami. 6 teams from each conference make the playoffs, so 18 out of 30 total (60%). This configuration would keep most current regional rivalries intact (I’m a native Ohioan, but sorry, Trillium Cup). I thinks it’s more important to keep Columbus-Cincy in the same conference than have Columbus go East. Yes, I know Atlanta is a hair longitudinally further west than Columbus. East would basically be “Appalachians east+Toronto.” Finally, St. Louis and Chicago could get it on with 2 games a season, as could Minnesota-Chicago, etc. Of course this layout would cut down on average travel times, particularly helping the “center spine” clubs from Minnesota to the deep heart of Texas. And whereas the West currently covers 3 time zones, no conference would be in more than two. After 30 clubs...or “but, it goes to 11!” Well, this is further out and real crystal ball stuff, but I would hope to add 1 club to each conference, to get to 33 eventually and maintain a balanced 3 conference system, at least for awhile. San Diego or Vegas/Phoenix (whichever already didn’t join MLS) would be the 11th in the West. East is pretty easy to get to 11, if you add Raleigh or Charlotte -- either of which would space things out nicely on the east coast. I favor Raleigh as there is likely a stronger, underlying demographic in that area for soccer fandom, I think. Central is pretty tough to add an 11th, especially if we want to try to expand MLS’ footprint in the deep south. New Orleans and even Mississippi currently have minor league clubs, so there is some interest, but I have trouble seeing either getting to MLS level. Moving north, there is some logic and interest in Louisville going up a tier, but it is so close to the Cincy market. Milwaukee? Haven’t heard much going on there, and it is close to Chicago, but it could make a nice Minnesota-Wisconsin-Chicago trio, kind of like the Cascadia Cup rivalry. That pretty much leaves Detroit as the most viable option, which apparently had a decent bid until they locked in on using Ford Field. But Detroit ain’t New York, so they don’t get a pass from the MLS head office on their stadium plans. But there are lower-tier clubs in Lansing and Flint, and Michigan has some real soccer history. Maybe a “Detroit” or “Michigan” franchise could go in a bit northwest of Detroit eventually. At 33 clubs, still 6 from each conference make the playoffs (nearly 55% of MLS). Thoughts? I think a 3 conference system is more likely and make more sense before we see 4 (or more) divisions, but I could be wrong.
Sorry for the double-posting. I didn't realize there was a much more active thread for this topic (where I just posted). Would delete this one here if I could figure out how. What happened to Edit?
I also like the three conference alignment.. When they reach 30 clubs. Also I'm hoping for the final two to be out west to balance the national footprint.
Divisions suck, 2 conferences please . Would have liked single table, but that possibility left the station a long time ago as the league just gets bigger and bigger. Why do we have to look like every other US sport? Ideally we stop at 32 team, 16W, 16E. Regular season within conference to cut travel and keep up your rival games. At the end of the year, #1 W vs #1 E is your champion- not sure we can call it the Shield anymore. As for playoffs, I would maybe just go to an East / West challenge Cup = #16 West @ #1 East, #15W @ #2 East etc. The cross over in the playoffs make up for you not playing against the other conference in the regular season. Plus the USOC would also allow you to play teams from the other side of the country as well, after the first couple rounds being regional to cut travel- that need to end maybe at the round of 16 The regular season is still meaningful as to whether you get a home playoff game. I guess this really could be a League Cup like England, but since USL-C and USL-1 would have to be invited , I don't think thats going to happen. I would just really, really like the USOC get the nod as the TRUE National Championship (the only playoffs that should matter), but I know that won't really happen either. -- League has gotten too big to look like convention sized leagues around the world Would have been nice to build a 20 team MLS-1 and then on to a MLS-2 etc, but that won't happen either. - But then to be fair, if we have to do divisions, i go with 4 divisions of 8 (W-C-S-N) once expansion done. (Added a couple of my own expansion teams ) W- VAN,SEA,PDX,SAC,SJ, LAFC,LAG, SLC C- COL, HOU, DAL, AUS,KC,STL, MIN,CHI S- MIA,ORL, ATL, NASH, NC,CIN, CBUS,DET N- TOR, MONT, NE, NYCFC,NYRD, PHIL,DC,HART
Ultimately, I’d say 16W/16E. Play each other home/away in conference and meet in the MLS Cup. 29. Sacramento, 30. Charlotte, 31. Phoenix (or Las Vegas, New Mexico, San Diego, San Antonio, Oklahoma City, or El Paso), 32. Detroit (or Indianapolis, Milwaukee, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Tampa Bay, Birmingham, Baltimore) One of the things I might propose to solve some of these missing big cross country games is to have a Leagues Cup with Mexico. Their top 20 against our top 20, 8 groups of 5. World Cup style. Pull out of the CCL and throw all our eggs into this basket and make it a money maker between our leagues. Example... MLS West 1. Los Angeles FC (MLS Cup > automatically in Western championship game @ home, Leagues Cup) - 2. LA Galaxy (MLS Cup > #2 plays number #5 seed @ home, Leagues Cup) 3. Seattle Sounders (MLS Cup > #3 plays number #4 @ home, Leagues Cup) 4. Portland Timbers (MLS Cup > #4 plays #3 @ away, Leagues Cup) 5. FC Dallas (MLS Cup > #5 plays #2 @ away, Leagues Cup) - 6. Sporting Kansas City (Leagues Cup) 7. Houston Dynamo (Leagues Cup) 8. San Jose Earthquakes (Leagues Cup) 9. Real Salt Lake (Leagues Cup) 10. Minnesota United (Leagues Cup) - 11. Saint Louis 12. Austin FC 13. Vancouver Whitecaps 14. Colorado Rapids 15. Sacramento Republic 16. Phoenix Rising MLS East 1. Atlanta United (MLS Cup > Automatically qualify for Eastern Championship Final, Leagues Cup) - 2. New York Red Bulls (MLS Cup > #5 @ #2, Leagues Cup) 3. New York City FC (MLS Cup > #4 @ #3, Leagues Cup) 4. Philadelphia Union (MLS Cup > #4 @ #3, Leagues Cup) 5. Inter Miami CF (MLS Cup > #5 @ #2, Leagues Cup) - 6. Orlando City SC (Leagues Cup) 7. Nashville SC (Leagues Cup) 8. DC United (Leagues Cup) 9. Chicago Fire (Leagues Cup) 10. Toronto FC (Leagues Cup) - 11. Montreal Impact 12. New England Revolution 13. Columbus Crew 14. FC Cincinnati 15. Charlotte 16. Detroit Group A: LA Galaxy, New York Red Bulls, New York City FC, Los Angeles FC, Chivas Guadalajara Group B: Minnesota United, Nashville SC, Cruz Azul, Pachuca, Santos Laguna Group C: Philadelphia Union, DC United, Tigers, Club Leon, Queretaro Group D: Toronto FC, Real Salt Lake, UNAM Pumas, Atlas, Monterrey Group E: Atlanta United, Orlando City SC, Inter Miami CF, Club America, Puebla Group F: FC Dallas, Houston Dynamo, San Jose Earthquakes, Club Tijuana, Monarcas Group G: Chicago Fire, Sporting Kansas City, Toluca, San Luis, Juarez Group H: Seattle Sounders, Portland Timbers, Veracruz, Necaxa, LOBOS
For me, the recent pillars of MLS scheduling/competition have been: playing everyone at least once; play conference foes at least twice; 34 game schedule; and a 2 conference setup with no divisions. With 26 teams next year, keeping all four pillars intact is impossible (2×12=24+13=37). Something has to give. What does will give us an indication of which pillars MLS feels are most important. For me: 1) Play every conf (div) foe twice. 2) Play every MLS team at least once 3) 34 game schedule 4) 2 conferences, no divisions I fear MLS values the 34 game schedule highest. Anyway, it is interesting to see how/if those scheduling pillars play out in a 26 team league (next year) and a 30 team league (max # of teams announced at the moment). 1) 2 Conferences of 13: 2×12=24 + 13 = 37. at 30: 2×14=28 + 15 = 43. Cannot play conference foes twice & everyone else once in 34 or even 36 games. Have to change the league setup, play more games, or drop the 2/1 scheduling. --------------- 3) 3 Conferences (9/9/8) a) 9 team: 8x2=16 + 17 = 33 (OK) b) 8 team: 7x2 = 14 + 18 = 32 (OK) at 30: 9x2=18 + 20 = 38. Works for now, if unbalanced. It gets unbalanced past 30, and would result in more than 38 games. Now, you could go 6 divisions of 6 at 36, but that yields 40 games. Nope. ------------------ 3) 2 Conf, 4 Div (7/6/7/6): a) 7 team: 6x2=12 + 19 = 31 (OK now) at 30: 8 team: 7x2=14 + 22 = 36 b) 6 team: 5x2=10 +20 = 30 (OK now) at 30: 7 team: 6x2=12 + 23 = 35 This works for now with 34 games and works with a 36 games schedule at 30 teams. Works at 32 teams if you go to 38 games. ----------------- 4) 2/3 Conf, 6 Div (5/4/4/5/4/4) a) 5 team: 4x2=8 + 21 = 29 at 30: 4x2=8 + 25 = 33 (still works) b) 4 team: 3x2=6 + 22 = 28 This works now and at 30, though the divisions are so small the setup would be awkward. Though there are extra games available may help some for a bit. At 32 teams, you'd have 6/5/5 in each conference, resulting in: a) 6 team: 5x2=10 + 26 = 36 b) 5 team: 4x2=8 + 27 = 35 Works if you go to 36 games, but at that point, I think 8 divisions of 4 becomes most likely (3x2=6 + 28 = 34). -------------- Bottom line: I think we are heading towards divisions (or 3 conferences) next year. I think divisions are much more likely as that setup can hold in 2/1 scheduling and 34 games for a while (30 teams). And holds at 32 if you go 8 divisions of 4. I like the 2/1 scheduling the most and would work hardest to keep it. Though beyond 32 teams it will not work. Still, I would go 4 divisions with 34 games thru 30 teams. At 32, I would switch to 6 divisions and expand to 36. Do not like 4 team divisions, too small. Need a rethink beyond 32 teams.
Good work... Something is going to have to give for sure. My guess is that eventually it’s just going to be MLS West and MLS East, not playing each other, until the playoffs. 18 teams in the West, 18 teams in the East. Expansion.... 29. Sacramento (West) 30. Charlotte (East) 31. Las Vegas (West) 32. Indianapolis (East) 33. Phoenix (West) 34. Detroit (East) 35. Oklahoma City (West) 36. Louisville (East) West alternates: Albuquerque San Diego Omaha El Paso San Antonio East Alternates: Tampa Bay Raleigh Jacksonville New Orleans Birmingham Pittsburgh Rochester Cleveland Baltimore Hartford Milwaukee
When we get to 32 and 16 West and 16 East, play a 30 game schedule in the conference. Try to cut down on some long distance travel (Vancouver to Miami anyone ?) and keep rivals close for traveling fans. You could create a Shield Champion game with the West Shield vs East Shield or still simply give the shield to the conference winner with the most points like know. Basically, some years the West wins , some years the East wins. - As for "playoffs', since we apparently still need to have those rolleyes, lets just take it all the way and have all 32 play and call it for what it is, a League Cup or in this case, an MLS League Cup since I don't think we will be inviting USL-C or USL-1 anytime soon. 32 teams makes for a nice tight 4 weekend cup, almost the same length of time we have now for a tourney that only includes 14. So if the time is the same, why not 32? You can set it up as an East/West challenge, #16 W goes to #1 E, #15 W goes to #2 E etc. Higher seed team get the games at home and crossing over allows some fans to see teams of the other conferance. Also have to remember, teams from different conferences can meet in the US OPEN Cup also.