Looking at that 4141, that Sorrychan rolled out, I have to say that is not the best one for the team. As we have a glut of midfielders now and coming through, we should look at a Midfiled heavy line up like the 433/4231, I also wouldn't rule out a 4222.
I’d like to see a 3-5-2, as it in theory lets us get our best talent out there. We’re starting to become fairly loaded with CB’s and midfielders, so that formation maximizes both. Yedlin and Saief on the flanks, Parks, Mckennie and Adams in the middle and Pulisic as the free role as part of the “2”, a la Hazard at Chelsea. Pulisic is obviously an effective winger but I’d like to see him have the freedom to roam wherever without having too much defensive responsibility.
Right now, we have no striker that can compete against an effective backline. Sorry Jozy fans, I'm not forgetting him. If he could compete, we'd be in the world cup this year. So, do we play with a formation with a false nine? Or do we play with in a 4-3-3, with 3 speedy attack minded forwards?
I am surprised the 3-5-2 doesn't get more love. Seems to fit the pieces available in the contemporary game. I am looking at you, too, Schmetz.
Whatever formation, the players have to be allowed the freedom to make mistakes. You can't evaluate when the coach is trying to grind out 1-0 wins all the time. Good MLS youth teams like NYRB II play an open, attacking style and they really don't care what the score looks like. They want to evaluate players. We only have 9 possible games before Copa America 2019, we need to see lots of players and see them try and do what they do best. A few of those at the end can be the full team, playing their best formation to try and win games.
3-5-2. We have time to implement it and our player pool always seems to favor it. Just need to know HOW to use it. Italian manager incoming
Do we have enough FBs or Wingers that can play a 352? Yedlin on the right but who plays on the left? And for 3mids to work, we will definitely need an attacking CM, which we don't have now.
Could do the 3-4-2-1 where Pulisic could be one of the 2 attackers behind a forward. No way to know who the other two attackers will be as so many are just coming into their own. Hopefully the next manager can pick a variety of players and mix them and formations and tactics to suit the opponent and situation.
Yedlin and Adams would be the first two that come to mind, ho neither are a natural lefty. Chandler and Fabian as well for an older option. They'd all do well as the Wingback. Saif has experience in it but he wouldn't bring as much defensively so it would depend on who we play and if we play a 3-5-2 or a 3-4-3. I'd have liked to see Robinson and Moore get a run out to evaluate them. Hopefully they walk with at least 90 from the next 3 games the US has in Europe. That would give us more data. The issue with the 3-5-2 or 3-4-3 is more about who plays ST. If Pulisic plays in the 2 we need a ST that can hold the ball up and we don't have that. If we play a 3-4-3 we could look to play more of a press with wood but he's in shit form. That leaves us with a bunch of unknown options. We could try a 3-4-1-2 with Jozy and Wood up top and Pulisic under but that puts a lot of pressure on the 2 in the middle to cover for Pulisic. We need our young ST to finish the year out strong and even more importantly start next year strong.
Whisper this quietly for older USA soccer fans but 3-6-1, might work! <ducks> Hamid CCV Mizaga EPB Yedlin Trapp Villafana/Robinson Pulisic Nagbe Saif Wood I would honestly suggest Dwyer for Wood. I understand Dwyer is limited and etc but him and BWP are probably the best players in MLS playing as CF by themselves for the last few years.
I believe the default formation should be the well-balanced, tried and true 4-4-2. From there you look at your strengths and weaknesses, but also the formation of the opponent. 4-3-3 is very attacking minded and you only use that if you have extraordinary players in attack or when the opposition is very weak and is playing a 4-4-2. 4-2-3-1 is good if you have a lot of very fit players. The 4-5-1 or 4-4-1-1 can be successfully used against a 4-3-3. 3-5-2 is dangerous to deploy, but if you have incredible wing backs and the opposition is playing a 4-5-1, then it is an option.
Question... I look at the 433 in game situations and often see it as essentially a 4141. The inverted V in the 3-man midfield with a DMid at the base in front of the back 4. The outside attackers in the 3 dropping back in wide positions to defend passing lanes and help out the fullbacks, who often take up slightly more advanced positions than the CBs. And a single striker chasing up front. Fair read, or am I off base? Also, because this type of 433 is such a popular formation these days, you often end up 433 v 433 with a clogged middle zone of the field and a combined 10 players (plus fullbacks) challenging for possession and probing for gaps in the respective D lines. The games start with a pretty safe back and forth as long as the players are of comparable quality and the score is level. What unbalances the equilibrium is when you have a top tier player (Messi) or an overall higher level of quality on one team (Real Madrid) that can probe at multiple points. Overall, this kind of defensive-minded 433 seems to suit our pool well. Against lesser talented opponents, gaps will eventually emerge. Key is cutting out ou own mistakes. Also would be great to see an elite 6 emerge from our pool.
When I look at our player pool for 2018-19 (i.e. not projecting way ahead), here's what I see: Strong CB pipeline and depth. John Brooks (when healthy), Matt Miazga, Cameron Carter-Vickers, Eric Palmer-Brown and Justen Glad are all young up and comers, and we still have a stable of fairly solid veterans in Matt Besler, Geoff Cameron, Omar Gonzalez, Tim Ream, Matt Hedges and Walker Zimmerman. Capable right backs. DeAndre Yedlin still has his issues defensively, but I feel comfortable with him in the starting line-up and he brings a lot to our attack from the defensive position. Eric Lichaj is a solid veteran back-up option, and we have Shaquell Moore coming through the pipeline. And there's always Timmy Chandler. Left back remains a problem. Antonee Robinson could be a long-term fix here, but until he develops, it's Jorge Villafaña, who is decent, but not ideal. Poor depth in defensive midfield. Behind Michael Bradley, the depth chart is thin. Wil Trapp turned in a good performance against Paraguay, but he is still unproven at the international level. We have very few other true destroyers or #6s in the pool. Lots of young depth among "runner"-style #8s. Weston McKennie, Kellyn Acosta and Tyler Adams are all young, talented prospects in this mold, and Danny Williams is a capable incumbent to fill minutes or bench spots while these young guys continue to develop. Poor wing and attacking midfield depth. Behind Christian Pulisic, the cupboard is pretty bare. I like Kenny Saief's game, but Paul Arriola feels like Alejandro Bedoya 2.0 to me (a hard-working, two-way winger, but not enough of a difference maker in the attack). Decent forward depth, but few who excel as lone strikers up top. Jozy Altidore is still a reliable goal scorer for us at the international level (and should be for several more years), and if Bobby Wood gets out of his funk, he's a good option as well. Aron Johannsson is beginning to round back into form with Werder Bremen, and Dom Dwyer, Jordan Morris and Gyasi Zardes are decent CONCACAF-level options. The only problem is, none of these guys play super well as lone strikers in a 4-5-1 or any variation of that line-up. Based on these factors, I wonder if our best formation in the near term would be either a 3-5-2, or a 4-3-1-2. Here's how a 4-3-1-2 could look: ----------Altidore---Wood---------- ----------------Pulisic---------------- -------K.Acosta--McKennie------ ---------------Bradley--------------- LWB--------------------------Yedlin ---------Brooks----Miazga-------- ------------------GK------------------ I realize this looks very much like a 4-4-2 diamond, but I see Acosta and McKennie as more dedicated runner-style central midfielders in this line-up, as opposed to shuttlers who drift wide. With this line-up, the 3-man central midfield resembles that of a 4-1-4-1 or a 4-3-3 (inverted). We should press with this line-up, with Acosta, McKennie, Wood and Altidore the primary pressers. Width primarily comes from athletic, fit outside backs - in this case Yedlin and your LWB of choice - and we focus on making things compact in the middle with three CMs who clog the lanes and make it difficult for opposing teams to maintain possession and play through us. Pulisic is in a free attacking role, with the freedom to drift wide (with the team's shape adjusting based on his movement) or playmake from the middle.
If there's one thing the recent Hex has shown me is that we cannot have MB playing as a 6 as his shortcomings as a defender and with ball control in tight situations are too obvious; smart teams/coaches can easily create significant problems for us. He belongs on the wings where his extraordinary lung capacity and positional defensive style can be best utilized.
The wings a 433 tend be goal scoring wingers who can dribble toward goal and score with an ability to make a cross. Not so sure in the 4141 it seem like the wingers are traditional wingers and the goal scoring threat are the middle two in the second 4.
Love when anyone mentions MB, as it saves me time from reading the rest of it. That post above is basically the starting line-up that failed to qualify for the WC. As far as formations, I agree that I don't understand why we don't work with a 3-5-2. I'm no tactical guru, but it does seem to suit our strengths (minus the issue of having zero strikers). Might as well experiment for the time being. 3-5-2 can easily be a 5-3-2 against better teams, or even a 5-4-1 if you really want to sit deep.
I am not that cruel. I actually read faster to see where the post is going. If and this is a big if but if Robinson comes good, we got him or Villafana or Saief as options on the left and Yedlin on the right. I have written off FJ btw, nothing against him but why would he want to keep playing for a rebuilding US at this point in his career, unless we are gonna let him play up to in 433 or something. ----------CCV Miazga EPB Yedlin ----------- Trapp--------Saief/Robbo/Villa ----------Puli--------------McKinnie ----------Novak/Wood----Weah
Do any of our top CBs play in a 3 CB set up?If not,why try to get them to play in a formation they aren't familiar with?
Assuming you're referring to my post, how? The line-up I proposed has 5 guys who were on the field against Trinidad & Tobago (and only 2 who are considered pariahs on BigSoccer), and the purpose of this thread is to discuss formations for 2018 and 2019 (and formations are often determined based on personnel). ----------Altidore---Wood---------- ----------------Pulisic---------------- -------K.Acosta--McKennie------ ---------------Bradley--------------- LWB--------------------------Yedlin ---------Brooks----Miazga-------- ------------------GK------------------ Swap out Bradley with Trapp or any other DM if you wish. Swap out Altidore or Wood with a forward of your choosing. I think the broader question in the context of this thread is how this type of a formation (4-3-1-2) would works for us in the near term.
Agree. another way of looking at it is to say "we know we are going to play certain players so which default formation should we look at which suits the particular skills of those players." From a purely personal perspective, I look at our past failure in mid which failed to connect offense to defense, the decline of Bradley as a force on the team,1) our dearth at hold up 9 position, 2) the emergence of obvious new talent that we want to get integrated sooner rather than later, and 3)who the guys are who definitely know how to play the game. For me # 3 is Miazga, Trapp, Delgado, Jozy, Ream #2 is Pulisic, McKennie, Adams, Parks I left out last years's u17's - Durkin, Carleton, Weah, Sands, Lindsay, because it is too early. I have to conclude that it is too early to pick a formation. Not enough solid data. It's really hard to come up with the right formation that integrates all the above at one time otoh, and, otoh, I don't know who completes the back 4/5 Brooks is always injured. CCV can be vulnerable outside the box. Matt Besler is great but aging. Zimmerman hasn't shown well. Not enough data on EPB yet. Gonzo looks done. Marshall is too old. Maybe Long will turn out to be ideal. We know Yedlin can be very good but his passing has never been tops. Villafana seems up and down. Saief is iffy. Arriola is too sloppy on offense. I see Ream as sketchy physically if playing with 2 cb's. Parker ranges well but can be beat in the box. It's too late for Hedges. In any case, the above #3/#2 seem headed towards a diamond for now ---------jozy---pulisic -----------mcKennie -----adams--------delgado --------------trapp--- --ream--miazga---x------x with parks as a sub. I don't think Adams wants to go on the wing. We want McKennie and Adams there but if we toss Delgado we expose Trapp and lose 50% of the passing thru mid. McKennie isn't good enough yet for the 6.
People make too much of formations. Formations are there at kickoff. After that, it's a lose association of players. The game is dynamic. Players move all around. The team tries to keep the basic shape and watch the spacing between players. But it's not a formation of soldiers who stay in place. Is a 4-3-3 a 4-1-4-1? Yes, you can think of it that way. Whatever the formation, the key goal is to not get into a position of inferior numbers and to keep the spacing tight so there is always support and backup.
International Friendly: USA vs Paraguay March 27th, 2018 "The prime difference between the formations is how high the wide players play, specifically compare it to the CM for a frame of reference. Also look at where those groups of players press. I'd expect the 8's in a 4-1-4-1 to have more high/central defensive actions and the 8's in a 4-1-2-3 to have more wide defensive actions in the middle third."