Kinda like how Charleston's attendance was the same if not better this past season? To the VAST majority of ticket buying fans, there is no real difference between D2 and D3. The average fan (which are the majority of the people who support minor league soccer) don't really care if the team is playing Harrisburg or Carolina.
If you do not see any difference between D-2 and D-3 you either do not attend games or have no idea how soccer in North America functions. With the exception of Charleston (good) and Richmond (exceptional), the D-3 clubs are shoestring budget babies. Rochester (very poor) is a perfect example of a team rotting from the inside out. The Rhinos cannot fault their fans for turning away in droves. A flimsy front office (that do not answer phone calls or emails) cannot expect fans to support them. Contrasting that with where many of the D-2 clubs ambition lies - Vancouver, Portland and Montreal on to MLS. Tampa and Miami have similar ambitions but have not reflected the quality at the gate or in their front offices either. Without changes in the Florida plan, they are destined to go back to USL. The NASL was hampered by having to share its league with the USL's fast food franchise set up (without the corporate support). While I would rather applaud a club that self-relegates than folds up as too many have, Rochester's front office is its own worst enemy. These leagues are less about the talent on the field then the lack of professionalism in the staff. If you compare the Latin American or European counterparts in the lower divisions, you will see that although lacking funds, there is no lack of ambitious professionlism and loyalty to their supporters. Hopefully, when the NASL lays down its regulations for all D-2 front offices in 2011, there is a heed for the better. Unfortunately for Rochester, it is far too late.
Soccer Sam just said that if USL Pro does not work out for the Rhinos they might head back to the NASL
this is why we need pro/rel . Teams like Rochester should have a chance to win their way up to the top league.
I have no idea if the Rochester fans will be interested to see all these shoestring budget teams visiting them in Marina Auto Stadium
He also said Tampa hadnt paid their players and was going under. Not sure who is more bipolar, soccer Sam or Clark.
It hasn't stopped Charleston or Richmond fans from showing up. Bigger budget teams didn't attract any bigger crowds to Cleveland. The vast majority of people in attendance at USL1/2 games do not generally notice that big of a difference to the teams. As I said before, most fans don't care if their team is playing Harrisburg or Carolina.
Actually though, Rochester has been dropping in attendance. From a all-time high of 11,600 in 2000, to 9,705 in 2007, its been three straight years of mediocre attendance. Small bump last year but insignificant. 2008 at 8,243 2009 at 6,428 2010 at 6,464 I agree with CCSUltra, I doubt it will change much with the drop to D3.
What I am saying is that they were already dropping. I don't see the remaining 6,000 fans not coming because its D3. But we'll see.
2008 was a much stronger year at the gate than 2009 or 2010. 2008 probably had paid attendance near what they had late in their run at Frontier Field.
Harrisburg or Carolina, likely true but Puerto Rico United or Pali Blues instead of Montreal or Portland, likely not IMHO
Portland is gone. Montreal will be gone after 2010. Long term, the NASL doesn't really have any teams with major name brand pull in Rochester. The best rivalry the Rhinos had with an NASL team that will be playing past 2010 was with Carolina. But, that died when Schweitzer was let go and Martin Rennie took over. After that, it was just another game on the schedule.
Just as an aside, I think it's only fair that Jim Bob Rhino discloses he's the newsman for SoccerSam and works quite closely with Jeff Diveronica on his KickThis! show. Just read through this whole thread. People don't realize how insecure people are in Rochester about their national image. The region has ~10,000 less people than Buffalo and almost 2x the population of the Syracuse region but we don't even have so much as an NCAA D1 school. Local sports fans crave national relevance and the early renditions of the Rhinos with their success gave them a taste of that. As the perception that the "Rhinos are one of the top soccer teams in the country! Better than most MLS teams...in fact we're going MLS soon!" has faded, fans have stopped placing a priority on making it to their games. From the summer of 1996 through the summer of 2001, going to a Rhinos game on a Friday night was the hottest ticket in town. People come to games, but the season ticket base shrinks every year. This step by the FO office to make the team less important on a national stage will probably make it even less important for sports fans to come out and see the team, especially if Stephen Strasbourg is making a rehab start just up the block against the Red Wings. If you'd like some other case studies in soccer attendance versus relevancy look no further than Toronto, Seattle and soon Portland and Vancouver. WPS In the same vein, the FO and people who cheerlead for everything they do, have made it sound like the WPS is going to be a huge win for the organization. I suggest that if a family has a choice of watching the Rhinos play Harrisburg on a Friday night or the WNY Flash play a team with US Women's national team players on Saturday they'll pick Saturday. Quality of Opponents The quality of soccer and teams the Rhinos have played might have been worse in the past. I don't think the stadium fillers care about that as much as the success of the team coupled with their relevance. Supporters Group As for the supporters group, I must disclose I was part of them as a college student and early on in married/family life. But I couldn't continue once the family grew. Having seen the discussion and issues that arose I'd venture to guess those who pushed the group grew tired off fighting tooth & nail for every concession for years. They then had various promises revoked and or trampled on by various people in the FO. These people had literally spent thousands of dollars and countless hours of their life promoting the team to anyone in earshot and seemed to be undercut every step of the way. I think the clubs lack of ambition was what the final straw for them. Do I think they did everything right? No, I think the group became somewhat of a cult of personality and any attempt to further organize was resisted. Consequently, when certain people became disenfranchised with the team the entire group fell apart. Unfortunately there's not someone or a group of people strong enough to put a group together and its somewhat difficult convincing teens and young adults that its important to have a supporters group for a 3rd division team.
There are few major factors regarding the drop to D-3. The "automatic" path to the U.S. Open Cup late rounds will not come as easy. The "guarantee" that there will be a game vs. an MLS team has vanished. One of Rochester's great legacy was its exhibition matches against foreign talent. Those opportunities are gone as well. If blame must be lain, then look no farther than incompetent office persons like David Cielinski - who has lost the trust of the media and of several of the players. There was supposed to be a working relationship between the new indoor Lancers and the Rhinos. Thanks to shoddy office practices and distrust, that too is in peril. Sadly however, this is not the first time that Rochester soccer faithful has been duped by its keepers - remember the old Rhinos ownership. Fans need to stand up and let the media know about Cielinski and other hoodwinkers.
For whatever it's worth, the six teams in USL-2 (D3) last season all got automatic entry into the first round the U.S. Open Cup. The Richmond Kickers, Charleston Battery and Harrisburg City Islanders all made it to the third round and MLS opposition, with the Battery subsequently defeating the Chicago Fire and Islanders defeating the New York Red Bulls there. Of the other three teams, only one lost in the first round, Charlotte fell 1-0 to the Carolina RailHawks. Pittsburgh lost to Rochester and Real Maryland lost to Richmond in the second round. If you're coming here trying to say that USL PRO teams won't be able to get past PDL and USASA teams in the first round, or each other in the second, I'm not buying it.
I grew up in Rochester during the late 1990s and loved going to Rhino games. It was the hottest ticket it town. If fact that was a real high mark for all Rochester sports. The Amerks drew well, the Knighthawks were winning championships and selling out the War Memorial, The Red Wings were drawing well, but not playing well and the Rhinos were playing great and drawing very well. I have moved away and have tried to keep up with the team. One thing that can not be forgotten is the virtual closing of Kodak in Rochester. When you take around 40k jobs away from the city, well paying jobs, that cuts into a lot of disposable income. It would be interesting to see how many of the former season-ticket fans were Kodak employees. I still enjoy the Rhinos, but I have to watch them from afar.
I'm still not sure they made the wrong move, given the information they had at the time they made the decision. I will say that had they chosen to bolster the NASL bid by staying on board, that league would like had an easier time gaining sanctioning. Maybe not a MUCH easier time, but easier nonetheless. Also, the NASL is now sanctioned and you've lost Sanfilippo to Tampa. So maybe I'm wrong.
I think it just comes down to the fact that Clark didn't want to keep losing money hand over fist. Dropping to D3 will help him like it did the Battery. And considering they just sold the naming rights of the stadium for 10 years, it doesn't seem like sponsors are that concerned about the difference between D2 and D3.
Did they really sell the naming rights? Seems like its the WPS owner, so yes they are probably paying for the naming rights but now the FLASH are probably playing for free at the Rhinos stadium.
I had heard that too. Plus, the Rattlers are back this year. There will be games on ESPN2, ESPN3.com, and if MLL follows suit from last year - on NBC Universal Sports. Every MLL game was televised last year (most on NBCU) and all were broadcast on ESPN3.com. Sure MLL is lower on the totem pole than MLS, but we're still talking about television/internet exposure that the Rhinos do not have. This could have been a sizable factor in the naming rights as well. Based on the work already being done with the Rattlers, it almost seems as though Clark plans on making the MLL team his top priority...
Rochester =/= Charleston. Charleston is a small town that never had major league ambitions. Rochester is bigger and many of its fans want in to MLS. What works for the Charleston Battery does not necessarily work for the Rochester Rhinos. Clark is still going to lose money in USL Pro. The question is, is he losing that money by spending it towards laying the foundations for future growth of the Rhinos, or is he losing money in an endless downward spiral going nowhere.
Looks like Devo would have lost his bet, had he made one; but then no one would be silly enough to buy real estate from him. He was irrationally hostile to TOA/NASL from day one. So, no surprises there. NASL got sanctioned. Rhinos lost/are losing key player(s). So by their own logic, this was not a good move. No one can have a crystal ball, but if the Rhinos had stayed in NASL, NASL would have had 9 teams and so the problems in Carolina would not/should not have been enough to cause USSF to revoke the provisional D2 sanctioning, and therefore we likely would have seen no public controversy about NASL's status during the 2010-2011 off-season. We shall see what happens in 2011. I'm sure the Rhinos will do okay, but, if the NASL improves and brings in new owners and gets official D2 sanctioning, the clock is ticking on the Rhinos getting back to D2. The window on how long NASL will accept the Rhinos back in (at least, under the current Clark ownership) will not remain open forever. Right now, NASL needs Rochester. But for how long? A successful 12 team NASL with official, permanent USSF D2 sanctioning won't need Rochester. Also, a NASL with 12 or more teams can start dividing up into regional divisions just like USL Pro does, and save on some of the travel costs. Remember, Charleston saved money on travel costs dropping down to D3 when USL D2 (ie, D3) was strictly an east coast league. Under the 2011 format, USL Pro teams on the east coast still have to travel to Los Angeles and/or the Caribbean. So they aren't going to save as much money on travel costs this year as they did last year. If NASL implodes this year and fails to attract new investors, then yes Rochester may still have ended up making the "right" decision. But if not, they will have made the wrong decision and backed the wrong horse. If that is the case, the window for correcting that mistake will be a limited one.