What does the success of the Youth National Teams mean to the Senior Team?

I think you've got your 2015 and 2017 rosters mixed up?

 

I think it's a telling indicator that this year we were the most talented team at the U20 CONCACAF Championship. Usually it's a toss up between the US and Mexico, with the Mexicans having an advantage. Not this year, even with a US B team against a Mexican team that was able to get Lainez to come.

Lainez, who tore up the senior team, was harassed and contained by Real and Richards on the US left.

And on the right, Dest (yet to make his pro debut with Ajax) styled on him 1 v 1.*

*As an aside, I think the U20 performances fly in the face of Tenorio's Athletic article about how everyone playing for the MNT needs to be starting for their club. Dest just dominated the guy who's starting for Club America, the guy who pantsed Wil Trapp and terrorized the Senior team (of players starting for their clubs) 2 months ago. Why? Because he's an extremely talented player, and that's what matters the most.

 

Can't rep this enough. If I'm coaching, I want the best talent. Don't care if someone is in a better club situation or if they're working to get noticed by their coaching staff. If I see a faster thinking, smarter player with the skills well that's all I want to see for a rebuilding program. And as the US youth talent keeps improving, this is critical to the future of the USMNT. Ignoring talented youth for guys getting minutes from their club (that we've all seen be quite mediocre for the USMNT) will keep the USMNT right where it's at...

 

What does the success of the Youth National Teams mean to the Senior Team?

You guys have depth and talent. Up to your program to convert that into the senior level. I'm not familiar with their club situation but they will need to be in good club environments to get to the next level

 

Still good work.

 

I agree with nearly everything you've said but not the statement above. From 1999-2007, the US U20s were always in the knockout stages of the U20 WC, and I'd rate the '03, '05, and '07 teams' performances as better than the '15 or '17 teams, largely based on the difference in strength of opposition. Knocking out Germany and Uruguay (with Suarez and Cavani) is a lot tougher than knocking out New Zealand.

As you say, however, the current class is different. Hopefully, they put it together on a bigger stage.

 

Only a few years ago we had an awful dry spell with our youth teams. Between 2011 and 2013 we crashed out in 3 of 5 YWC qualifiers. In 2015 we barely qualified to the U17 and U20 and didn't go to the final. We still crashed out of the 2016 Olympics but at least it was a playoff against Colombia. The worst part was seeing player after player showing that they just weren't good enough to really impact the full NT.

In 2017 we turned the page and played Mexico very evenly in two finals. It was good to see and even better to witness some of those players start contributing to the full NT. This is the first time I have seen us be the clear best team in the region. Dominance was thorough and inarguable. Hopefully this will mean an eventual resurgence of the full NT.

 

I think people who've enjoyed this run by the U20s are going to lose it when they see Ledezma slide in there where Amaya was playing last night. A healthy Ledezma there, with his precision and clarity on the ball, and we're talking 5-0 or 6-0. He's that good, and he'd unlock Mendez even more.

That said, I wasn't impressed with that Mexico team, and beyond Mendez, Dest, and Richards, and maybe Llanez and McKenzie, I'm not confident anyone on this roster will make a senior NT impact. Great tournament for Servania and Pomykal, but we'll see. Disappointing showing from Soto, but hopefully he uses it as motivation the rest of the season at Hannover. Gloster's a good left back for this level, but I'm not convinced.

In any case, I wholeheartedly agree with @Susaeta's point that the difference between this cycle and the last few is the quality of our attacking creativity. Mendez, Ledezma, Llanez, Carleton, Pomykal and Amon are better than all of the attacking U.S. players at the 2017 World Cup with the exception of Josh Sargent. That's quite a difference.

 

If there were only a way to get rid of the idiots running USSF, though...

 

WCs are won by players. I've seen some truly incompetent feds do really good in WCs.

 

Problem is if the idiots running it choose an equally incompetent coach, the players won't matter at all.

 

I'm fully confident that a lot of these guys will make an impact. Not so much because of their quality but because the current generation in their prime sucks. They're not replacing Reyna, Donovan, or Dempsey. They're replacing Trapp, Altidore, Nagbe and Zardes.

 

Thoughtful as always, @Susaeta , but it won't mean shit if the coach isn't any good.

 

Look at the trajectory of both England and Columbia. It started with a series of successes on the youth level in successive big tournaments. It does give me hope, but only if we have a system that can take advantage.

 

We are getting better, but it takes time. The generation from Donovan/Dempsey to the 96's were a weak crop. Thats 10-15 years. Our NT suffered because of it for the 2018 cycle, and might suffer because of it for the 2022 cycle. Players like Pulisic and McKennie will only be 24 in Qatar. Either we use a weak crop of late 20's/early 30's veterans or we have a very young team.

 

Where are these players more likely to get a 1st team shot, here or Europe?

Where are these players likely to see their development maximized over the next 12-24 months?

 

It would be very lucky to have 3 cycles in a row turn out outstanding talent. It happens, but I would not plan on it. Our u20s just put on a good display in C'caf. They may make noise at the WC. Some of them may move right into NT consideration. But for 2022 I see us having too much youth. The lineups that we have seen this past year are encouraging, but a better coach will be looking to upgrade a few positions. I don't know where they are going to come from. There may be a youth player that will break through or we may have to reach back into the pot for experience. Now 2026, we may have the proper mixture. I can't believe I just wrote that. But anyway, I am hopeful. Now it is up to the program to get on board, get a coach and get behind the players out there chasing their dream. And trying to make me happy, of course.

 

I was more impressed with Richards than any young US defender Ive seen in a while. He has certainly looked the part at this tournament.

 

TBF, the senior team match was a friendly. We once dropped 4 goals on Germany in a friendly...

 

The US U20s have generally been a Rnd16/Quarterfinal team.
The KO round opponents and their final rankings are listed below:
'97_Rnd16(Uruguay_2)
'99_Rnd16(Spain_1)
'01_Rnd16(Eqypt_3)
'03_Qtr(Ivory Coast_14/Argentina_4)
'05_Rnd16(Italy_7)
07_Qtr(Uruguay_12/Austria_4)
'09_Grp, '11_DNQ, '13_Grp,
'15_Qtr(Colombia_15/Serbia_1)
'17_Qtr(New Zealand_16/Venezuela_1)

The 'Missing Generation', the '09-'13 U20 nadir, highlight that history. The '07 Qtr loss to Austria still annoys.

The program's recently making Qtrs twice on the hop was a first. But the '17 Rnd16 match against New Zealand makes the achievement less convincing. A semi-final appearance in the '19 tournament combined with Qtrs in the previous two additions would certainly augur an uptick in the talent production.

The claim that there is more attacking talent in this group looks to be on firmer ground. It's crucial they break through. There are very few young attackers who are a getting significant minutes at a good level on either side of the Atlantic.

 

They had a great run back then but the '01 team didn't advance past the group stage, the '03 team choked the biggest choke ever against Argentina the day before my birthday, and the '05 team just wasn't very good. They opened with that win via a Barrett goal if memory serves over Messi's Argentina avenging the defeat in '03 in the quarterfinals (Messi was suspended for the 1st half for some reason that slips my mind) but then proceeded to play like garbage the rest of the tournament. The '07 team was just the most bittersweet of performances. They were glorious against Brazil, looked fantastic in every game save versus S. Korea (where S. Korea pulled out some WC '02 magic and just looked to have more energy than 10 LT's in 1985), and then had an injured keeper in a rain slicked quarterfinal against an Austrian team they should've blown the doors off of and instead lost, I'm convinced due to that keeper injury (we let in an absolutely idiotic goal in that match). We had, to my mind, one of the best two or three teams in that tourney and instead lost in the quarterfinals to a team that couldn't have cleaned our boots 19 out of 20 times, unfortunately it was that 20th time that we met them.

What's different now is that we've produced three consecutive outstanding teams. That's definitely something we never had in the aughts (the '01, '05 and '09 teams were mediocre or worse, only the '03 and '07 teams were quality), the '15 team was limited at forward, especially after injuries but was really really strong on the defensive end, the '17 side was very good period (though again, not perfect at forward), this '19 side appears to have talent almost everywhere and is deep to boot (in terms of what players could be on it, if everyone's available). We'll see what actually happens with the rosters themselves. Things are a bit spotty for now, but overall, things are more exciting than ever before.

I'd say Europe. Watching whats happened to Carleton and some other guys, if I'm a young player, there's not a chance in hell I sign a long term contract with an MLS team unless I know w/o a question they do a great job of matriculating prospects through their system and onto the big club in a coherent fashion. This isn't the case w/most teams, and when you sign on, it appears you're locked in in many cases for a ridiculous amount of time, seems to be these contracts are very much weighted towards the MLS side whether than the prospect. If you've got any chance at all as a prospect to collect a passport, then it's easy as hell, you go to Europe straight away, if you have to pull a Sargent, you could always do that as well. The one thing you can't do is what Carleton did, and a few others, and find yourself trapped in a system where the club has zero incentive to actually give you the minutes you need to develop, and we don't really have the framework set up for secondary and lower youth club leagues for players to work their way up, the bottom kind of falls out after the big clubs in many instances.

Our kids should be following Sargent's lead.

 

It wouldn't surprise me if 2022 is a bumpy ride. The team will be very young. It could be a lot deeper if some of the youngsters accelerate their development term (I continue to pine away w/guys like Taitague, Wright, Parks etc) and stay healthy, we have a half dozen to a dozen or so interesting guys in that age 18-23 area right now that are in that weird zone of not quite ready for the big club, and either too big, or not big enough w/the youth club yet, and in that area a prospect can disappear entirely, plateau, climb rapidly to the top, or get hurt, so in a year or 18 months time we could be a totally different position. There are a ton of these guys, Tillman, Hyndman, Zelalem (I know, pipe dream), Akale, Taitauge, Wright, and on and on and on, there are a ton of them. More than likely 60-70% of them will never be relevant for the USMNT senior team on a regular basis, maybe 5-15% end up somewhere in-between that and relevant, and maybe a teeny percentage follow Pulisic and McKennie's path. We just don't know, but that's the road we have....

The '15 U20's have largely disappointed as field players with few seeming to be anything more than depth options.

The '17 U20 generation are quite interesting, and loads of guys could leave a big impact, or clearly show they are no longer relevant within the next 18 months-two years.

The '19 U20's are a question mark (as is the '21 generation). Some of them like Sargent are already known commodities and depended upon even if like Sargent, and Weah for that matter, they aren't really getting 1st team minutes yet, but generally we'll get a clearer picture between now and 2022.

We are going to be young and mistake prone, and prone to wild shifts in fortune. To my mind, we live with it and promote the most talented kids, and build a system around them, while bringing in some glue guy vets to show the way going forward (in the past I was thinking Danny Williams, Clint Dempsey, and a favorite punching bag of many that I like in Bedoya-basically guys w/a tough mind set, and hard working and passionate mentality). I think we need to identify the best pairings for forward and central defense, and the best midfield combination for the next 12 months, and 30 month horizon's. Right now we have problems across the board in figuring out where to play Adams, whether to play Acosta or Trapp at all, what the heck to do with the wings etc. Regardless, we need to come up with a sensible depth chart and a system that best accentuates strengths and minimizes weaknesses. I don't have any of these answers, I just like to read other peoples ideas, and decide whether I have something to learn from them, or find them ridiculous . Exciting times to be a USMNT fan. It hasn't been this weird and unpredictable going forward since the summer of '98 to the winter of '00-'01 and its definitely stranger than that period (back then we had a better idea of how our defense would be set up, we had two great keepers and a great keeper prospect, and we had Reyna and McBride to build around) because we just really have only a couple of guys we absolutely know will be a part of the big picture and yet in virtually all of those instances, we genuinely don't know for sure where to play almost any of them to best effect.

 

The '17 team is more convincing for me because of the group stage. That was a legit difficult group and we were missing about 4 of our top 6 players (McKennie, and Taitague alone didn't make it because they nearly lead Schalke to a youth team title, I'd add Wright as well but apparently Ramos wanted no part of him, not sure about Akale, I think he wanted Perez as well). The performances against Ecuador and Senegal were excellent, New Zealand, you have a point there, but pushing that Venezuela side to Extra Time was a spectacular example of toughness (much like the '15 side, bereft of so much attacking talent repeatedly pushing better sides to extra time) considering how much better Venezuela was.

The most frustrating aspect has always been the roster choices, some of the line ups, and some of the weird issues Ramos just has with certain guys. You never quite know if Ramos is just having a personality conflict with a guy, if the guy himself is a nut, or if the talent/chemistry isn't there or something else, like Llanez not being a part of the '17 U'17 team w/idiot Hackworth (made zero sense then, makes zero sense now, and could have been used as ammo for Llanez to dump our program for Mexico). The positive side has been that all three of Ramos' U20 teams have been ferociously tough outs the knockout stages, in '15 and '17, and in '13 inexplicably tying France w/a team that had literally no talent to speak of (that France side had Pogba and what looks like another 3 or 4 guys on their current national team the won the World Cup) other than Yedlin's rather unique hair cut. I have a hard time figuring out just how skilled he is as a coach and as a youth administrator because there are so many irritating things, but then you get these youth sides that punch above their weight repeatedly, and rarely ever give up (which is something distinctly lacking with the USMNT since basically 2011 or 2012 for the most part).