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Discussion in 'USA Women: News and Analysis' started by kernel_thai, Nov 10, 2013.
Does anyone know when and where the January camp is? Also do they let random people watch?
Definitely could be a very interesting camp. I suspect we'll see players like Dahlkemper, Dydasco, Grubka, Groom, Killion, etc from the U-23s and then Ohai, Tymrak, Long, Hagen, and maybe even Buczkowski from the NWSL.
Make a case.
Interesting. Not really sure who Ellis would let go to add a new face.
Ive made this case here a dozen times. Ohai deserves a look based on her success with the 2012 U20 where she was a key player in the win. The following players from that team were called into camp: Dunn, Johnston, Brian, DiBernardo, S. Mewis, Killion, & Stengel. And that doesnt even count Horan. And I dont need to here about NWSL as not one of the others had played a minute in the NWSL before they were looked at in the full team camp.
I doubt she adds anyone but it's always nice to look at ur depth and keep the pool large and competitive.
True, injuries happen, and you want to know what your options are. I'd love to see the scrimmages from that camp!!!
ohai is a u23 player, and the u23s will be at the camp.
what are we debating?
nobody says ohai isn't good. ohai's problem is that she has to displace the 5th forward, arod, who out scored her a ton in the nwsl.
Im not saying Ohai should be on the NT...Im saying she deserved the same courtesy as 7 of her team mates. I can easily make a case for the only three members of the team that should have been called to camp: Johnston, Dunn and Brian, but that isnt what happened. It started to get really insulting when they brought in Mewis and Stengel who werent even starters on the U20 team. Ive also heard that they werent looking at players at Ohai's position, where they r very deep. Well, they called in her team mates at forward, midfield, outside back and center back so maybe they think Ohai is a GK. Anyway, I guess the frustration finally ends in January.
January camps are usually held in Carson and aren't open to the public, though there's nothing to prevent you from looking through the fence if you're so inclined.
I don't think the u20 case is good enough. It wasn't against senior level players.
We are getting close to the WC. If Goals at the u20 level were the standard, the player being overlooked is Maya Hays, with four goals to Ohai's two in that same U20 WWC. Ubogabu, DiBernardo, and Brian each scored one. Brian has other skills, but the others haven't been given a shot either.
but that was two years ago and U20. She didn't do much at U23 or in NWSL - 4 goals, 1 assist as a forward. There are a lot of players that did better out of the forward and mid positions.So she should have shown since then why she deserves to play with the big girls. We are past the point in this cycle to try out the next young thing. Jill needs to be looking for versatile players who can fill in at more than one spot.
Here are several players whose NWSL STATS are as good or better.
Just on the team I watch Macdonald got 11 goals 1 assist and Long got 9 and 3 in the same number of games. Long in about the same minutes and MacDonald did it in 500 fewer minutes.
Jazmine Reeves scored 7 goals and an assist for Boston in about 700 fewer minutes than Ohai.
Katie Shopfer scored the same number of goals as Ohai in half the minutes.
Hoy, Freels, and a Tymrak all compare favorably
Sarah Hagen has exactly the same scoring stats in less than 1/3 the minutes.
There are more productive players out there. im not convinced she has shown she is more worthy than any of those players.
Goals are not the only measure of success. I think many people, myself included, would like to see what Ohai can do with the full squad in the 4-3-3 out on the wing. Nobody seem particularly enamored with any of the options there at the moment (Heath Press, Leroux when Morgan's playing, and HAO, although Heath was fairly decent out there; Rapinoe is now the "10" so she's not included on this list). That said, I would also like to see Tymrak called in to try her out there as well, since she hasn't been with the team since they switched formations. Heck, I'd even like to see O'Hara get some time there (I thought she was decent with SBFC on the wing). Players like Hayes, McDonald, Reeves, Schoepfer, and Hoy seem more like traditional central strikers to me (I know SBFC tried Hayes out there, but it didn't work, in my opinion).
So Ohai really doesn't seem as deep on the depth chart to me as someone like Hayes who has Wambach, Morgan, Leroux, Press, A-Rod, and Horan/Hagen/Stengel (of some sort) in front of her.
they were never just calling in u20 successes. if so, as cliveworshipper points out, hayes would have been called in.
they have great forwards. the ones they were calling in tended to be the abby replacements/backups - the bigger horan/hagen types who could play abby's bruising game. ohai does not fit.
and for her to be called in as a winger, she has to play better than tymrak on the wing in nwsl. she doesn't.
please do not construe this to mean that i don't think ohai should be called in - just that her not being called in yet is not "really insulting".
All there forward r center forwards. What they r doing is taking five central players and trying to make some of them into wing players to fit the three front. Ohai is not a center forward, she is an outside forward who can play either side which perfect for a three front. Ohai can also defend her position which is very important in a three front. Ohai is also a 90 minute player who has a huge work rate both offensively and defensively. Since the US doesnt get much scoring from the wings in the current system, it seems if all things were equal Ohai would be ahead of the curve in the hunt for a outside forward.
What a dumb argument.
Lori Chalupny scored 5 goals as midfielder in the NWSL, also had zero assists. Is that worthy of a call up Clive?
Sam Mewis has never played in the NWSL, she got called for her college play. Is that worthy of senior call up Clive?
The problem with ur argument is it expects a level playing field which clearly doesnt exist. The coaching staff(s) for whatever reason, and it may include pressure from above, clearly gives preference to players from their youth system over players from the league. All the names u mentioned r proof of that.
The US is currently playing their three front with five center forwards and three attacking midfielders. Players like Hagen and McDonald would just be adding two more center forwards to the mix. If ur going to play a three front u need players who can play and defend wide. Hoy would be the most interesting on ur list (and Reeves pre-Amazon) but apparently the U23s dont carry the weight of the U20s. Hayes can play the wing but is only really effective in front of goal. The four goals u mentioned (three vs Ghana, 1 vs China) all came right in the goal mouth. Hayes also doesnt defend on an NT level. BTW, two of those four goals for Hayes were assisted by Ohai. Ohai has also shown that special big game quality (U20 goal in semi, goal in final) (College Cup golden goal in semi, goal in the final). As to Houston, no one scored goals because their midfield did provide opportunities. Ohai's four goals actually led the team with McCarty and Burger. U might have a better argument after next season when Ohai has Lloyd and Brian to make shots for her.
Now do I think Ohai will make the WC squad? No. Id take her because of her versatility, work rate and lock down defense but I can see that isnt the direction of the NT. Her offensive game still isnt ready for prime time and that is what it's about. So maybe she earns a spot for the next cycle. Does she deserve a look now? Absolutely. There is only one reason to have the youth programs and that is to develop players for the NT thru international competition. Ohai's U20 WC performance earned her a look and if it didnt there is really no reason to have the youth programs at all.
We went over this one year ago. Ohai isn't ready for the NT. Dunn was far more developed by the end of the U20s. In fact Dunn set up her U20 and UNC winning goals. If she gets called up now, she'll never see another opportunity. She needs to take the next 2 years and develop her game and body, given she's on the small side when you look at the type of forwards and mid-fielders they go after. Her call up should be after the Olympics. She can easily replace an one-dimensional utility player like HOA. I also think she has better upside than Mewis I.
If USWNT doctors clear it, yes, absolutely.
That is a decision the doctors clearly made, right or wrong.
The coaches had no role there.
And I don't agree with the Sam Mewis Callups. She came to a camp to watch her sister and somehow talked Sermani into letting her play. She also isn't ready. Maybe she will be next cycle also. I hope so, even I am getting nervous that if youngsters don't step up we will see the granmas in 2019.
That is in no way evidence that calling up college players is automatically a good thing
I'm not convinced the other Mewis is ready.
If Mewis isn't ready now, then Brian wasn't ready in 2013.
That's the thing, as long as you don't call the young players in, they will never be ready. I mean, this is a situation the US is now facing with their goalkeepers. The #2 and #3 have a cumulative total of 4 caps, if anything happens to Hope Solo, the starting keeper in the WWC is going to be very inexperienced at the international level.
The color commentator for the UCLA vs Virginia game made a statement about how Morgan Brian stepped up her game after getting called in to the USWNT and Sam Mewis stepped up her game after being called in. I agree with that statement. Brian had 4 goals and 7 assists in 2012, 16 goals and 14 assists in 2013. MewTwo had 6 goals and 9 assists in 2013, 16 goals and 13 assists this year. I don't think that's just a coincidence; being there has improved these players. Why do you not think it's a good idea to expose the youth to an environment that will help them improve?
What more does Sam Mewis have to do? She was one of the top performing players in the country this past year. As Holden points out, it's extremely evident what her previous callup has done to her game and I don't see any harm in calling her in again. The upside in her game is a lot higher than others in her position that weren't called up.
In my opinion she has to do well at a level where a good percentage of players are National team players. She does that by going pro. College isn't good enough. u20 isn't good enough.U23 players will get called to the same camp, as I understand. She has to be better prepared and show her new experience translates back to the higher level.
That her experience at the national level helped her in college is great. It was a positive experience for her. Now she has to make it a positive experience for the National team, which didn't really happen. She is in the same class with Ohai. There is still development that needs to happen.
As much as I am worried the team will get too old, it is NOT the role of the national team to develop players. That's the whole reason the league was formed in the first place. ( as well as providing a place for the current pool to play). That's the best place to show she fits.
You get on a national team by making it impossible for them not to take you. If people can come up with other players better for seven months from now, they should go be named instead.
At this point in the cycle you have to prove you are better than one of the players who won a gold medal two years ago and the other players trying to do the same.
Alright, so let me see if I got this straight... it's not the role of the national team run by USSF to develop players, that's why the USFF started the NWSL. Um... what?
So after the Olympics it wasn't time to develop new players because they had to have the victory tour. 2 years after the Olympics it wasn't time to develop new players because that's what got Sermanni fired. One year before the WWC isn't time to develop players because the WWC is next year. After the WWC it won't be time to develop players because the Olympics are the next year. Rinse. Repeat. So when exactly is it time to develop new players?
The GerWNT recently brought in players from it's 2014 U-20 WWC team to the full team to help them develop. The FraWNT recently brought in players from it's 2014 U-20 WWC team to the full team to help them develop as well. But, oh, it is a waste for the USWNT to bring in 22 year olds to help them develop because that's what the NWSL is for.
I just hope this January camp won't interfere with NWSL draft.
The national team is the end result. The league and youth teams are the means to achieve the result.
The idea that the national team is to serve the NWSL is a backwards concept.
No. The victory tour was the reward for winning a medal and was in the player contracts of the players who were in the olympics. It is how they paid the players. Putting Trialists on that tour like me wanting some of your sales bonus because I want to be a salesman.
What got Sermani fired was doing things like putting the younger mewis on the team when better players were available because she was cute in practice watching older sis. He also gave Brian minutes when she wasn't ready. She had he hands full at the college level. Sermanni though all usa players were interchangeable or something...
Hell, you watched the Algarve... Was he bringing the team forward?
I think Semanni's blew his shot with development. just don't ask me to defend the fix for Semanni. But yeah, those were the times to look at changes.
You are trying to say there is no time for development. You are right. At all the men's level teams the development happens at the league level. It is true with Germany, Spain, Italy, France, and every country that has won a cup.
The real failure of this development cycle was that it occurred when one league folded and a new league got started, same as the years between the WUSA and the WPS. There is no development system with continuity. The college level is not a development system. They play 20 games a year and otherwise practice 2 hours a week with coaching. It is barely a maintenance system that puts player careers on hold for four years. It is the main reason our teams are older. ( might not be so bad. Our teams are the only one who have medaled every cycle)
But it ( again) is not the role of the National team to develop players. They traditionally just choose the best players from league play and previous NT success. When players don't excell at league, they generally don't stay on NT's long.
As a little mental exercise, name one men's World Cup star who didn't come up through a pro program in the last 10 years. When I get on Argentina forums talking about the NT rosters, nobody talks about youth team experience except to ask if they are ready for league. Hell, most youth players are already in pro leagues.
Now you are making it too easy. The Germans haven't won anything since 2007. Their last two fifa tournaments ( quarterfinals, not qualifying) are hardly a ringing endorsement for the German system. They had freaks of nature in Prinz and Garafeakes and Meinert in their primes. The current crop has some good players, but nobody like that crop.
Remember when Popp was suppose to be better than any US player? She was at the youth level. Is she still?
There's something of a false premise here: If you go back to the last WWC/the following Olympics, there now are a significant number of new players on the team. So any suggestion that the USSF has not been developing new players is contrary to the facts.