USWNT sues USSF 2019 version

Discussion in 'USA Women: News and Analysis' started by lil_one, Mar 8, 2019.

  1. puttputtfc

    puttputtfc Member+

    Sep 7, 1999
    Hope Solo said the reason the women backed Cordeiro is because they wanted the contracts. When Lloyd was back peddling at the end of the last negotiations she said the equal pay thing was overblown and the contracts were the important thing.
     
  2. westcoast ape

    westcoast ape Member+

    Nov 27, 2000
    Portland, OR
    I think much of what you said in this post is factually incorrect or simply inapplicable to the issues at hand.

    The part of my post you quoted was about how broadcasters should be sued to pay equally for broadcast rights, and your response was that the women "bring in more revenue." In some years, it's true, they do bring in more revenue, but I don't think they bring in more television revenue at all. Look at the fees paid for WC broadcast rates compared to WWC broadcast packages. It's a huge difference.

    I do not think the women would be pleased to dismiss the contract in favor of larger per-game payouts (like the men have).

    The idea that US soccer fails to promote the NWSL, when really US Soccer is the one that started the NWSL and subsidizes the largest salaries of the players in it, would seem to counter your point. Also, years ago, MLS offered to start up a WMLS, and the women rejected that notion out of hand and went for WUSA instead, saying they didn't want the men to "piggyback" on their success.
     
  3. Layman

    Layman Member

    Mar 7, 2002
    I think many of the posters missed the issue and dwelled on subjects on the sideline. What is important to a national team of a country is the result the team achieves. The USWNT has won the WWC while the men's team is no where near. Why should the men's team be paid more, which I don't really understand.
     
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  4. El Naranja

    El Naranja Member+

    Sep 5, 2006
    Alief
    Club:
    Houston Dynamo
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That's just a silly argument. It's about how much money there is in the competitions and there's just more of it in men's then women's. They can lobby FIFA for equitable prize money, lobby advertisers for the same but relative sporting prowess isnt how payments work
     
  5. MRAD12

    MRAD12 Member+

    Jun 10, 2004
    Chicago
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Because the men face bigger and better competition than the women do. It is much harder for the men to win games against other world opponents much less win a World Cup than the women. In the women's game there is only a handful of competitive teams where in the men's game there are many competitive teams around the world.

    When it comes to the global game, you cannot compare the competition and popularity between the men's and women's game. It's silly.

    The US women win more games than the US men do because it is easier for them to win more games than the men because of the competition. Period. How hard is that to understand?
     
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  6. cpthomas

    cpthomas BigSoccer Supporter

    Portland Thorns
    United States
    Jan 10, 2008
    Portland, Oregon
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    My opinions:

    What you say is part of the reason the women win more games than the men, but only part. The other reason is that the US women, relative to what's possible for women, are better than the US men, relative to what's possible for men. In the hierarchy of sports for the highest level US male athletes, soccer is not as close to the top of the hierarchy as it is for the highest level US female athletes. I.e., the US soccer women are closer to the top of the US female athlete pool than the US soccer men are to the top of the US male athlete pool. (This does not bode well for the future international success of US men's soccer. If we were to get rid of basketball, baseball, and American football, then we would see the US soccer men being more competitive. Soccer is a way better sport than those other sports, in my opinion (well, maybe not basketball), but most of the US population doesn't see it that way).)
     
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  7. Layman

    Layman Member

    Mar 7, 2002
    Do you not award a national team doing well in winning world championships? Monetary consideration should not cloud the issue as you have.
     
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  8. Layman

    Layman Member

    Mar 7, 2002
    Difficulties vary from year to year. How do you account for that too? It is not about difficulty. It is about national pride and honor. If a team can bring those to a country, they should be awarded accordingly.
     
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  9. El Naranja

    El Naranja Member+

    Sep 5, 2006
    Alief
    Club:
    Houston Dynamo
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    In a perfect world but the world isnt perfect. The prize money for winning the WWC is much smaller than the WC because the later is far more popular than the former. If the USWNTPA wants to change that, I'm sure the powers that be at FIFA will be very receptive, generous sould they are.
     
  10. luvdagame

    luvdagame Member+

    Jul 6, 2000
    but it’s all about monetary considerations, no?

    who is the you awarding the $$?

    if it were you & me, they’d likely be getting more. but that’s not how it works. i don’t have that kind of bitcoin, and i have no way of garnering that large an amount....

    ...and neither do these excellent woso players either - for now.

    that’s why they are trying to tweak markets, public opinion, and the courts to do it for them. not sure i agree with all their arguments, but i hope they succeed.
     
  11. hocbz

    hocbz Member

    Feb 15, 2016
    #136 hocbz, Mar 14, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2019
    Depends. I love American football, it's my favorite spectator sport, but it's possible the sport is going to start declining once more evidence on CTE comes out. I'm not as familiar with baseball, but basketball seems to be very niche in terms of who can actually play (the height requirement alone and small rosters are going to knock out alot of porential players). Football is also somewhat restrictive physically in that you need the right build for a lot of positions. Soccer seems to attract a different kind of athlete. I was thinking someone like Kyler Murray would probably ahve had a better career in soccer than football, just because he is a crazy gifted athlete but quite undersized for the NFL. And if successful, a top soccer player who goes overseas can make a lot more money than an NFL player.

    I think our biggest problem is just talent development and the entire youth infrastructure. We should be competitive. There are enough athletes in this country. The long term potential is there, though. I think the women's game might actually stagnate as other countries invest more in their youth and provide them with viable professional paths in the sport. I don't see American women declining college to go pro given the financial realities of the sport here, and the NCAA is not a great development ground. So yeah, my thoughts on the men's and women's teams are a bit different than most. I think the men's team has huge upward potential. I'm not as certain about the women maintaining their #1 status. We are already seeing worse and worse results at the youth level every year.
     
  12. MRAD12

    MRAD12 Member+

    Jun 10, 2004
    Chicago
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Fair enough. My quotes on the subject on this thread are my opinions as well.
    We can only make our opinions on our experiences watching, observing and reading.
    I don't think there are any correct or incorrect opinions. It's how we look and see things. It's like the parable of the three blind men who touched the elephant. :)
     
  13. neems

    neems Member+

    Liverpool FC
    United States
    Apr 14, 2009
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think it's beyond my comprehension as to why all the players regardless of gender aren't paid the same kitty at senior level. USSF is a non-profit tasked with promoting the sport in the United States. This is the number one thing revenue should be used for... Youth, Refs, Coaches, Paralympics, Infrastructure.The players finances is literally the last place we should be having this argument.

    If someone like Michael Bradley or Carli Lloyd quit over money then we move on and set new expectations.

    Playing for the National teams shouldn't be viewed as a career or some sort of entitlement. That said, there is no reason we can't provide equal compensation, amenities, and concessions. Zero reason.

    There should be perks for the players and rewards for success. One of those is knowing you are representing the country and giving more opportunities to other people in the game.

    Unfortunately, due to the private market, a real equal scenario might carry considerable risk for the women's team.
     
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  14. Germans4Allies4

    Jan 9, 2010
    I hope all you WNT apologists appear when we're talking about the massive failures of the female YNT program from U20 and below.

    The agenda that Ellis and her cronies had to destroy the development program is in full effect. Female dominated coach/scout staff with YNT and a DA not different from any other league is just the start. An old Full team that falters this Summer, after U17 and U20 WC failures, show there is deep trouble.

    And the contract part of the argument is directly tied to some of this. But, pay the same. I'm all for that. BUT, don't give them NT contracts and don't fund their league...just like the men. With the lack of winning on the horizon, they'll be wishing they never opened their mouths.
     
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  15. MRAD12

    MRAD12 Member+

    Jun 10, 2004
    Chicago
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    One good point you bring up is that playing for the National team should not be seen as a career. The Club level should be seen as a career.
     
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  16. neems

    neems Member+

    Liverpool FC
    United States
    Apr 14, 2009
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Exactly. Which is why the revenue part of the discussion is rediculous. From a player standpoint, this is a completely voluntary endeavour. Players can turn down call ups. If they choose to because they have the same perks as the women then that's their own issue.

    There should be no entitlement with the revenue made at the NT level - regardless of gender.

    USSF Mission Statement:
    ...the Federation’s mission statement has been clear and simple: to make soccer, in all its forms, a preeminent sport in the United States and to continue the development of soccer at all recreational and competitive levels.

    That being said, I agree with others that USSF has made this a problem for itself and that is in part to how antagonistic it's leadership has allowed the WNT player relations to become. Although, some of the women's players haven't help either over the years.

    They should be paid equally and capped as a way to control cost. Maybe revisit it every couple years. The numbers in the filing for the men are outrageous. Way too high SMH. How many more coaching and refereeing intiatives could we fund with that money?
     
  17. McSkillz

    McSkillz Member+

    UCLA Bruins
    United States
    Nov 22, 2014
    Los Angeles
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'm not a sports historian but my understanding is that the United States sporting culture stems from the collegiate athletics system that the US has had in place for probably over a century. College is where American gridiron football really took flight, and basketball became popular. As far as baseball, the professional leagues for baseball are the oldest leagues in the US(my assumption). We probably had our US National Soccer Team around 1913(since that's when those special centennial kits came out) but why soccer never flourished over the other big three sports, I don't have immediate answer but I'm sure some on here could explain the various circumstances in the US at the time.

    My father who is in his early 60s and a multiple athlete(did football, basketball, and baseball) told me that soccer was the most unpopular sport at his high school and only dweebs(his words not mine) that weren't good enough for football or basketball or baseball took up that sport and made the team easily. So even 45 years ago, the soccer scene was bleak in the US.

    Women's soccer scene is super new relative to the men's game but there's that famous photograph of England women's squads in the early 1900s during WWI having some entertaining matches before they were apparently banned from playing.(why they needed to be banned, my millennial brain can't comprehend)

    As for why I'm telling you all of this, I have no idea so I ask for forgiveness if this is a "well duh" for you. I guess I was thinking about the US male athlete pool and US female athlete pool and why males aren't encouraged to play and flourish in a developing sport such as soccer and become a star in that said sport rather than enter an already impossible lottery of becoming a star in the NBA, NFL or one of the baseball leagues.
     
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  18. Layman

    Layman Member

    Mar 7, 2002
    We are not talking about FIFA prize money. We are talking about USA controlling body not rewarding enough what the girls in USWNT did to get the honor and respect of the US players and their countrymen.
     
  19. El Naranja

    El Naranja Member+

    Sep 5, 2006
    Alief
    Club:
    Houston Dynamo
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    If they truly wanted equality they'd drop these contracts and allow anyone to get a NT callup and not block others from such an honor. That isnt what they want, as shown by their actions for years now.

    And FIFA tournaments, and CONCACAF and CONMEBOL, are big parts about how USSF is funded.
     
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  20. Layman

    Layman Member

    Mar 7, 2002
    Does anyone knows what he is talking about? In tournaments among nations, we are talking about national teams that bring GLORY to their own countries. This is what the USWNT has done and I don't see any reasons why they should be paid less than the national men's team which has not done so.
     
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  21. El Naranja

    El Naranja Member+

    Sep 5, 2006
    Alief
    Club:
    Houston Dynamo
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Because glory is relative, as are the funds available.
     
  22. MRAD12

    MRAD12 Member+

    Jun 10, 2004
    Chicago
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    I'll take a guess.

    I believe what this person is referring to is how the contract is structured. Am I right?

    For instance. I was at an NWSL game last summer talking to someone who seemed like they were in the know. This person mentioned that one of the things in the USWNTPA contract was that once a player is brought into USWNT camp, they have to offer that player a contract within a certain amount of time (I forgot what it was), otherwise that person cannot be brought back into camp for another year. Does anyone know if that is true?

    The claim I think by some "fans" is that the current players structure the contract so that they can be on it for a long time, as a career if you will, thus minimizing the chance of other players taking their place. Thus the assumption is why some players are on the USWNT way past their "use by date".
    This is my guess.

    I personally do not know all the details of the contract as I'm sure most of us don't, we just hear supposed bits and pieces here and there.

    The US men I believe, can rotate players as much as they want.
     
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  23. Patrick167

    Patrick167 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 4, 2017
    The USWNT entered into a contract with USSF. Why should they get paid more than what they agreed to? They didn't have to sign it. This is the real central question.

    As to what you think is the real quetion, on the field results matter not at all. You could say that if the USMNT entered the WWC, they would surely win it very like the Dream Team won the gold medal (every game would be a rout). It would be no contest. Conversely, the USWNT would not make the Hex. I don't think that argument is useful either, but it is alike to the one you made.

    Taking your argument to its logical conclusion, the two teams should play and the winner get all the compensation, because the best team should be paid.

    Obviously, I don't think either of these last points have any merit as well as yours. Because the two jobs are not the same. It is not like saying a female SVP at Pfizer should be paid the same as a male SVP. The two jobs are completely different.

    Everything outside of the contract the women signed with the USSF, not that long ago and of their own free will, should certainly be equal. Monies paid to the teams by FIFA or other 3rd parties is not relevant. Giving each team an equal percentage of the revenue they bring in over a period also would be fair. But employers are not required to be fair, just to abide by the contracts they sign.
     
  24. lil_one

    lil_one Member+

    Nov 26, 2013
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Under the old CBA, contracts did have to be offered after a certain number of days in camp. I don't remember the exact number without going back and looking at the doc.

    By what was reported (and seen in this thread), the 2017 CBA was supposed to deal with some of this though. The number of contracts was reduced, and is supposed to continue to reduce (with the goal of slowly working down to 0 towards a structure similar to the men's). Additionally, in the new CBA, there was some more flexibility and a reduction on the restrictions for more call-ups (no details known on how flexible it became since we haven't seen the new CBA).

    On that note, has anyone seen the MNT's CBA? It seems to be pertinent to this discussion.
     
  25. Yoshou

    Yoshou Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 12, 2009
    Seattle
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That doesn't shield USSF from a discrimination lawsuit, but it might hurt the USWNT in court.
     
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