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Discussion in 'Youth National Teams' started by Real Corona, Mar 22, 2012.
This has US CYA law written all over it as Baysider surmised.
For the first point, the player certainly has a stake in this. This makes it more costly for a European team to sign an American player therefore making it harder for an American player to get signed there.
For the second, MLS did not subscribe to the TC/SP agreement before so I'm not sure why signing a contract necessarily implies that they are under this agreement.
Sorry, but mls/USA FA are members of FIFA without exceptions. The whole load of regulations of FIFA applies to them.
Once again, the player has no stake in it as it is a thing between clubs. The transfer sum isnot going up. Do you really think a selling USA club negotiates a market value transfer price for a player and then says to the buying club...btw I add 5% TC/SP to it as I have to distribute that to former clubs. Really? In what unicorn country do people live to believe that. A buying club is paying what they think the player is worth. If a Yank club wants more, than the buy is off.
So players cannot complain, as the TC/SP only is relevant in transfers really done. Good luck going to court for transfers falling of the table and blaming that on TC/SP.
Is that so difficult to grasp? TC/SP only are in play when a transfer has been done. What is the player going to complain about?
Don't ask us we don't know. Ask the union they're the ones who don't want it.
TC is also when a player signs their first professional contract. Alex Mendez was in the LA Galaxy academy and then signed his first professional deal with Freiburg. Reputedly they are paying him something like 14k per year. At that price, it's easy to take a chance on him. If he doesn't turn out, you've lost a year of a very low salary. However, if they also had to pay the Galaxy $150k (say) in training comp, they might be less willing to take a chance on a player. So you would expect fewer opportunities for US players in Europe.
And FWIW, MLS has ignored FIFA instructions on this for a long time, so how binding they are in practice is unclear.
Well, good luck to them changing FIFA/UEFA rules that have survived the EU scrutiny.
Are they (union and players without transfers) planning to sue the USSF/FIFA/mls for transfers that failed and how are they going to prove it was because of the TC/SP? They can't stop a rule beforehand, so they have to come up with a case that proves their point. Good luck with that.
Maybe I can offer a lecture to that/those player unions about this subject. Think it's alot cheaper than sueing big organisations with big wallets and legal staffs the size of a law firm.
I may be confused but I think we are talking about two different situations. Your scenario seems to imply the selling club in MLS already has the player under contract and the buying club in Europe is paying a transfer fee. In that case, I don't think there is any TC specifically as that is part of the selling fee.
In the case where a player has not signed with the MLS club but goes to Europe on a free (no transfer) this new plan by MLS will now see those MLS clubs seeking training compensation for players they never had under contract but were simply in their academy. For example, LAG wanting an amount for Mendez from his current club. In that situation, I could see the player filing a tortious interference with contract claim potentially against MLS if the player's move to Europe got held up because the European team didnt' want to pay training comp so they backed out of the deal.
Easy example, Kid A at MLS academy has contacts in Europe and goes over on summer break for trial. Kid gets an offer from Dortmund to come over and be on U23 team. Kid A packs bags and his MLS DA club calls Dortmund and says you owe us $50K. Dortmund calls the kid and says deals off. Kid A sues MLS club in State Court for interfering with his contract with Dortmund. No idea if this is what was being envisioned or why the MLS clubs now want these acknowledgments signed but perhaps so.
The sum you mention is impossible, as FIFA has put a maximum on it of iirc 1355€€ for every year a player was in a club between 9 and 20 year of age.
So the max is around 15000€€.
Within the Netherlands we extended the rule and a club that takes in a player in its academy from another academy has to pay 13822€€ per year the player has been in the academy of origin.
So if a club hesitates to pay such sums you really need to have a good look in the mirror and ask yourself if this small investment isnot worth the risk am I good enough to become a pro.
Just in comparison the Ledezma case. Given his status as a non EU kid PSV has to pay him a minimum youth wage for non EU residents. So Ledezma can safely assume he got some talent for the club to splash out that amount as investment in his future.
No, you're not confused. There are two different situations of which one (TC) only can occur once and not in combination with SP.
Impossible, as European clubs pay those all of the time. What matters however is the question of proof the club can give about the time the kid spent in the academy. Only if the kid was member of the USSF (=at the same time of FIFA) and the academy really is part of the mls club (so not a vague kind of liaison without responsibility of the mls club) there's ground for the TC and under the rules of FIFA the Euro club has to pay.
This all can only take place after a contract is signed, so the Euro club cannot tear up the contract in case they have to pay the lousy 15€€, unless they put it in the contract as a premise. However that would be illegal in itself as you cannot draw up contracts that contains nullifying of FIFA/UEFA rules.
then it really seems the acknowledgment going around the MLS DA Academies is meaningless. Have heard a number of kids are just ignoring it.
Impossible. Max 14k. and Dordtmund pays a hell of a lot more for Dutch kids. The only thing that matters is the talent perceived and the money worth to spend. And for the rest see my other post.
Situations are being put on the table that are impossible to exist.!
I'm afraid I donot understand what you mean.
Its my understanding MLS Academies sent around a form to the DA kids asking them to sign and acknowledge that MLS will now be seeking training compensation should they move over to Europe before they are under contract with the MLS club. From what I hear, some kids don't want to sign it. My thought was MLS wanted the kids signatures to head off any potential claim by the kid MLS was interfering with their chances in Europe. If as you say, the clubs in Europe will not be put off by this, then no reason for the acknowledgment.
That's great to know on the TC issue. Now if we could get the MLS clubs to agree to pay the non-mls clubs a portion of any solidarity payments or transfer fee the MLS clubs receives when the MLS club poaches a kid for a year then sells him. Ala Chris Richards and FCD where Richards was there a year and sold for a hefty transfer. If FCD paid Houston Texans and Richards club in Alabama a portion of the transfer ( the clubs where he developed) then it would benefit the entire US soccer community.
Do you have any documents stating what you have written? I am not doubting you, but there is a clearly written grid provided by FIFA that spells out the TC by Confederation and each category within that Confederation.
The numbers are drastically different than what you mention.
Being part of the FIFA family means you share with other members of the family what they are due to receive. You can't under the umbrella of FIFA take part in the transfer process and ignore the part of it that makes you pay another member of the family you owe them.
Use google translate.
This is from a legal firm specialised in soccer matters.
This Dutch paper's article I posted already, but it could be in another thread. Good read about how the money flows in relation to TC/SP.
I agree with you but I think that is part of the problem here. If I recall, MLS is taking the position they don't owe anything to non-MLS clubs on either front TC or SP. They contend TC is only for kids going overseas and they don't owe SP for other reasons they spelled out in the lawsuits on this issue.
I don't really care to get bogged down too much in the legal weeds of all of it, I simply propose everyone involved in US soccer would benefit if the MLS clubs passed the money along when they sell a kid they got from another club. It would create an entirely new avenue of money for youth soccer clubs, open doors for more kids to play free and expose many more kids to higher levels of training.
Great stuff - thanks for sharing. I may not have read far enough back in this thread, but it quite clearly states the maximum for a International transfer is €580,000.
Interesting in the Domestic front - US needs to come up with something like that.
I don't know enough to know whose numbers are correct, but this is one link I've found
What would even be the point of paying 1,355 per year? That's not close to what it costs to train a player.
MLS is right about the bold part. FIFA rules governing training compensation only apply to players moving across federations. You can have TC within a federation but the rules are determined by the federation itself.
The problem with TC within the US is that it's hard to get the price right. Say that total (not annual) compensation is $10,000. It's hardly makes any difference to an academy that might produce one pro player every other year. On the other hand, if you make it a serious number, say $100,000, then MLS will hardly sign anyone outside of their academy since most of the players drafted only last a year or two anyway.
I would like to see the US come up with something within its own Federation. I could live with a small(er) amount, but it needs to be enough that a MLS club has to really think about brining a kid into their club. It is so easy for them to just go poach players from non-MLS clubs without putting much thought into it.
Many of these players end up being cast aside and very few of them ever receive a professional contract. If there was a $1500-$2000 (just throwing it out there) annual cost associated with these players, the MLS club would actually need to think ahead about the chance they sign the player to a contract - and what financial ramifications it would have as for payments to that players other youth clubs.
Think you misunderstood it. This is the price paid to amateur clubs when a player signs his first pro contract in the Dutch setting. Different sums are used for players in academies of professional clubs.
This is a part about international transfers and the amounts used across confederations.
This is a part about international transfers and the amounts used across confederations.