Post-match: USA vs Mexico Gold Cup final 7/7/19

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by tomásbernal, Jul 7, 2019.

  1. bct81

    bct81 Member+

    Mar 17, 2007
    Colorado (formerly northern Virginia)
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Same old problem

    And I thought we had a free press

    USSF and MLS are already socialist

    Berhalter and Altidore quoted

    Hey Greg - Boyd had a good tourney why did he not play against Mexico?
     
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  2. matabala

    matabala Member+

    Sep 25, 2002
    Come on people, ONE five second clip of a nice sequence and Morales is the new Elvis? I saw a guy do that in a rec league game the other night. Should we call him up too? :(
     
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  3. matabala

    matabala Member+

    Sep 25, 2002
    Evidence please or you're just blowing smoke again?
     
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  4. TheHoustonHoyaFan

    Oct 14, 2011
    Houston
    Club:
    FC Schalke 04
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #654 TheHoustonHoyaFan, Jul 9, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2019
    Posts like yours is where BS goes off the rails. I was very specific about Morales in that I believe that he is currently better than Bradley/Trapp/Roldan, nothing more. That is a testament to how poor those players are against good international competition than how good Morales is. The bar is very low.

    Morales only got 13 caps in 4 years because he was behind Jones, Bradley, Williams, Edu, Beckerman, Mix, Kljestan, and Bedoya. He is not, nor has he ever been a world beater. Nobody is suggesting that he is "Elvis", he is just better than the low-bar incumbents.

    IMO, the current ordered DM depth chart, (against quality international opponents), would be: Adams, McKennie, Williams*, Morales, Bedoya, Bradley, Canouse, Acosta, Trapp. The fact that after 7 months we have only ever seen Bradley and Trapp is what most posters are reacting to.
     
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  5. nobody

    nobody Member+

    Jun 20, 2000
    At least Berhalter seems to be moving away from Trapp. And we really don't know what he will do about Adams as he at first had that hybrid role written in ink using Lima to play it while Adams was out. But, he went on to just get rid of it over time and we haven't seen that for a while now. It is entirely possible that a healthy Adams sends Bradley to the bench as it should. We really don't know yet. My guess would be he at least trots it out once or twice, but he has shown the ability to move on when something doesn't work and he may have already moved on from this notion from all we actually know.
     
  6. Patrick167

    Patrick167 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 4, 2017
    This wasn't dropping, this was changing the way the team was playing. Altidore, or someone, recognized that the midfield was 2 v 4, and Altidore or someone had Altidore become a midfielder. Maybe Gregg didn't like Bradley or Jozy or the captain make that change on the fly, so he subbed Altidore out. After the game, Jozy said he had no idea why he was subbed in and out all tournament, he feels fine.

    If Jozy was gassed, it makes sense for him to drop into a more static role and let CP, "chase bubbles" with his young legs. I don't think that was it at all, but even in you scenario it makes sense.

    And why would Gregg do it? For the same reason he did it versus Chile at about the same time. It is the one way he knows to solve the overrun midfield with Bradley on the field.
     
  7. thedukeofsoccer

    thedukeofsoccer Member+

    Jul 11, 2004
    Youtube: Jimmy Dore, Secular Talk
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Firstly, you single out Roldan as a Ralston liner when he played his best against the toughest comp including in the Gold Cup final against Mexico. Was one of the better players on the field for either side. But he struggled against 177th ranked Guyana whose players in their wildest dreams by and large couldn't be bench players in MLS. So when he had problems they weren't logically opponent caliber-based. Guys like Ralston or Wondo were known for doing the opposite.

    Secondly, you're using random quantity and subsequent fellow unqualified managers (hired by the same fed infected by cronyism) who had to bypass his generation for the most part to call up young players and build for the future as the metric. And you even argue he was infallible to the extent he left out "nobody worth discussing", even though that's true of no manager, let alone a guy who had a hard line rule not to debut MLS players outside of January camp unless they were dual nationals threatening a departure otherwise. Sapong and Opara, for a couple examples off the top of the head, certainly looked interesting when they actually got a shot. And of course call-ups have some influence on career outcomes. He certainly thought that was true when it was time to act like their daddy and punish them when they didn't do what he preferred for their club careers.

    Shockingly you have to decimate a US program pretty damn bad to leave them in position to not qualify in a region as s**tty as CONCACRAP. That's a better metric than any you'd try to provide when it comes to the job he was doing.
     
  8. Patrick167

    Patrick167 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 4, 2017
    It has been two days and we still don't know why Boyd didn't play a minute after Guyana.

    Down 1-0 with 10 minutes to go, if Boyd wasn't available, then why didn't Lewis come in? Why was Lewis on this roster if not for that very spot?

    If Jozy was not able to play 90 by the Final, why was he on the roster?

    The most important thing to happen to this program for the foreseeable future is for Adams to completely heal from his chronic groin injury.
     
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  9. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    Not sure it works in reverse. MLS has a horrible record of evaluating talent. They have been known to lowball players for petty reasons... I wonder if that is where their fans get it. Like our national team under Arena, they seem to have different scale for dual nationals that would hurt a Morales move.

    That last sentence should be true but obviously not under Arena or Berhalter. I count at least 10 average MLS players used in our Regional tournament.

    Miller, Cannon, Gonzalez, Lima, Lovitz, Roldan, Trapp, Lewis, Arriola, Morris, Zardes
     
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  10. MPNumber9

    MPNumber9 Member+

    Oct 10, 2010
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Maybe, although I think that's pretty speculative. More importantly, nobody would sign him for those positions, just like nobody would sign Bradley now for the position he was originally signed for. They'd hire a player better than both of them.
     
  11. USA-Zebuel

    USA-Zebuel Member+

    Mar 26, 2013
    Club:
    Colón de Santa Fe
    Interestingly, I see the problem of our current set up being a conflict between Pulisic and Bradley/Trapp on the field at the same time. This is due to how GGG desires to use them:

    CP as a 10/free radicle with three attacking players results in a two man midfield. This gives us great width/wing play which bypasses the two man midfield when attacking but suffers when the opponent targets MB. In my opinion, McKennie is getting thrown under the bus due to this dynamic. More on this later.

    This is the key reason for the Adams hybrid RB/midfield solution. CP is not CM/CAM/Messi/SS, that is a big ask. So Adams role is to provide that midfield presence to support Mb/McKennie and allow CP to roam free.

    This is where my feelings and logic disagree. I feel that MB is the problem but I am fairly convinced logically that the use of CP as a free roaming creator is the catalyst for a cascading diminishing effect on the team:

    1: MB cannot be a registra AND a defensive stalwart. If he is on the team we need two more CMs. Full stop.

    2: Adams is forced into RB/hybrid due to CP eating the third CM spot, not because of MB.

    3: When Adams is not available the RB is just an RB and the midfield is overrun when facing a quality team. See Tata’s adjustment second half.

    4: McKennie’s skillset (in my opinion) is a ball winning, jumping header winner, broad skill set motor, late box run maker in the mold of JJ. With him having to cover for MB (due to CP taking third spot) he is going to fail defensively and offensively. Plus we lose the advantage of getting him to win second balls and headers from our over strengthened wing play.

    5: our LB (which we do not have a great option for) needs to stay home as our RB provides mid coverage. This causes predictability as to where we can attack from. We are pretty lopsided.

    6: Jozy/Zardes ends up droping back to provide mid support resulting in diminishing the hold up play/ header from cross presence.

    Solution: CP on the Left or on the Right as a winger. MB stays on and gets the support needed in midfield (Adams presumably) left back can attack, and we can press up high instead of the half ass press we have been employing.

    Please be kind in your roasting
     
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  12. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    As I stated to Casper, it's speculative that Pulisic would start for MLS teams too and hopefully we'll never know (until his career is sunsetting). Why is it so hard for poster to understand that there's a global meritocracy and by and large, water rises to its level.

    Let's see where Bradley and Trapp sign - I believe both of their contracts are up so they're both available on a free and have the passports/requirements to move abroad easily if there's mutual interest.
     
  13. TimB4Last

    TimB4Last Member+

    May 5, 2006
    Dystopia
    Sorry, we don't do kind. I agree that we have a problem, but putting two luxury players on the field at once - Pulisic (the free radical, who's allowed to do whatever he wants) and Bradley (the defensive midfielder who can't defend) - is not the answer. If Pulisic must stay, then Bradley must go, sorry.
     
  14. MPNumber9

    MPNumber9 Member+

    Oct 10, 2010
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    My point, is, there are other factors that determine whether or not clubs buy players and why, so it's not cut-and-dry. For example, the Galaxy currently have 3 American CMs that can and have all played a flavor of the 6 role: Lletget, Corona and Kitchen. It'd only make sense to sign Morales if he were going to be a significant upgrade over those guys, and he wouldn't. That's the position most MLS clubs are in. As a pool, we basically, have a bunch of guys hovering around the same level of MLS/Championship/Lower-end BuLi.

    What additionally hurts Morales is stylisitically he's old-school destroyer which few teams even in MLS play with these days.
     
  15. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    I'll keep on saying this - Morales isn't a destroyer. How often have you watched him play?

    MLS is not equal to lower-end B1! it's roughly comparable to B2. C'mon.
     
  16. nbarbour

    nbarbour Member

    Jun 19, 2006
    Washington DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Agree 100% with this. But why all the machinations to keep Bradley on the field? Never in the history of US soccer have we had the luxury of playing with less than two defensively strong CMs against quality opposition. Bradley is dead defensive weight at this point in his career, and that is the cascading effect -- not where we happen to line up our best player. He's given a ton to the shirt, and now it's time to give him an amazing send-off match.
     
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  17. QuakeAttack

    QuakeAttack Member+

    Apr 10, 2002
    California - Bay Area
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You haven't watched Morales play have you? He is not a destroyer. He is a two-way play.

    In the past, he has been underwhelming in the USMNT, but in his defense, he hasn't been given a lot of opportunities. The challenge is that I'm not sure whether he would fit into GGG system. Of course, that is the problem. I can tell you that Roldan is not better option (and I like Roldan). So, let's give him a shot...
     
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  18. USA-Zebuel

    USA-Zebuel Member+

    Mar 26, 2013
    Club:
    Colón de Santa Fe
    Agreed. But GGG does not so I took a pragmatic approach within the framework.
     
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  19. USA-Zebuel

    USA-Zebuel Member+

    Mar 26, 2013
    Club:
    Colón de Santa Fe
    My point wasn’t that this is what is happening to keep Bradley on, it is that this is what is happening to give CP the third CM spot as a free roaming SS
     
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  20. nbarbour

    nbarbour Member

    Jun 19, 2006
    Washington DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Fair enough. But I think this is true if Pulisic is on the wing as well. Since when has the US had the luxury of a 6 or an 8 that can't defend?
     
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  21. onefineesq

    onefineesq Member+

    Sep 16, 2003
    Laurel, MD
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I was always middle of the road on him. When the groupthink thought he sucked with the Metrostars, I argued that he was better than he was being given credit for and was being scapegoated (way back in 2005 or so).

    When he we went to Europe and started off well and first became a fixture on the national team, the groupthink was that he was better than sliced bread. I argued that we were vastly overblowing him at that time, though yes, he was in fact good.

    When he started to fade and groupthink started to treat him as public enemy #1, I have tried to remind that this is generally the normal career arc, especially when injuries are involved.

    So supporter? Well, as a US fan I try to support all these guys. I have just had a more moderate opinion of him than the prevailing opinion, for the last nearly 15 years.

    But everyone's time comes to an end. It is just that time for the US men's team at this point. If it doesn't happen now, we will be behind the 8 ball in developing the chemistry between the players who we will be relying on to qualify.
     
  22. MPNumber9

    MPNumber9 Member+

    Oct 10, 2010
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Very occasionally and not recently. I'm going off how people have described him, which is physically gifted ball-winner and iffy passer.

    There's isn't a ton of daylight between the top of the B2 and the bottom of the B1, obviously. Bottom of B2 is far below MLS-level.
     
  23. Patrick167

    Patrick167 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 4, 2017
    That is all fine, but could it work with Adams at the 6? Is Adams that good that we can be outnumbered in midfield and it wouldn't matter? You seem to be assuming that MB has to play. I agree that if MB plays, CP as a CAM is a problem. But MB is too old for the next WC, imo, and shouldn't play again.

    I also think Mexico took advantage of our asymmetry. We would do better with a LB that can defend and attack. If Mexico switches Pizarro to the left, then have the LB attack, switch Arriola and Morris, and pin that player back. That seems much more tactically flexible. I think there is a reason you don't see this asymmetrical 3 back system used much anywhere.
     
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  24. ETSC

    ETSC Member

    Jul 5, 2004
    Pretty typical of the US due to generational shifts and lack of quality in depth. As key players move out of the pool, the quality players coming in never play the same role.

    Option A is to flog old Bessie for one more tournament, option B is trying a quality player out of position, option C is what plugger won't be a complete disaster in the spot.
     
  25. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    #675 DHC1, Jul 9, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2019
    7 out of the last 8 relegation battles between B1 and B2 have been won by B1 (87.5%) and before Union pulled one of of the hat this year, it had been seven years since a B2 team won.

    that's not particularly close.
     
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