that is the problem with Zico, he refuses to change the order of preference, as if it will hurt a player's feelings. And in Alex's case it is further amplified by the fact that he is from Brazil. Hate to wish someone to get hurt but I hope Alex breaks his leg or something because that is the only way Zico will not start him. With Fukunishi and Endo, at least we know that when the Euro guys are there they won't be starting, but unfortunately we are stuck with Alex and Kaji.
No love for Okubo? I can understand how he might've been left off, but a Hirayama/Okubo tandem up top really should be worth a look, at least in one of the European friendlies. Big/fast forward tandems seem to work the best, and since 3-6-1 is (hopefully) no longer an option....
I guess we will find out when Zico announces the lineup for the 28th whether Okubo still has a chance. Zico sounded like he is not done testing 3-6-1 yet though . I wish he would at least replace Tanaka... and why not try a 4-5-1 with the golden quartet + Matsui in midfield?
what it says is that when the games are played on the US side of the pacific that MLS is light years better than the J league...
He's a former big time player with a "name"....the fact that he is also apparently clueless seems to be lost on the powers that be at the JFA...
? J-league teams have gone to the US and beaten MLS teams, so I don't think location is a matter. Its about Zico actually playing the best J-league players and not unfit or washed up guys. As far as overall quality though, J-league spans two divisions and has more depth (especially when you consider the foreigners I think).
fair enough and frankly I haven't see many J league games, just highlights....It just struck me that the USA, after the first 7 or 8 minutes,totally dominated this game much like they did vs Norway a few days earlier and did it with all MLS players. The Japanese and Norwegians used all domestic based players too, so although "home field" advantage counts the USA league came off as stronger (in these instances) than the other leagues.
true, but when Japan subbed 6 guys and the US subbed 6 guys, Japan took control, so you can say maybe Japan won the battle of the 3rd stringers I'm assuming all players played hard to impress their coaches. I guess the US players showed they are faster and stronger, while the Japanese showed their technical ability and accuracy (I hope Donovan can kick corners better than he did though. even though 1 produced a goal, its not often Nakazawa will allow someone to throw him by the shirt like that and get in front of him). I don't think the Czech and Italian midfielders are going to stand for US having so much possession, so they are going to have to be much more accurate and take advantage of their chances.
It's impossible to say what league is better with two national teams, thats just insane. Watch each league regularly throughout a season, have no biased, then you might be able to say what league is better
I'm kinda' curious if anyone here still feels that Japan has more Euro-based players like Zico said....
I don't, but I think they have more attackers abroad than the US (I'm talking about actually on the team and not the youth or farm team).
Are you insane , 4 odd months to the world cup and you want the manager to get the sack,, once again are you mad. Plus i'd rather have Wenger to Ossim
I'll sorta buy that, but let me show you a typical BigSoccer USA fan post re our starting line-up (if all are available).... https://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showpost.php?p=7515021&postcount=31 The USA doesn't exactly have a "first-11" since our line-up is always changing due to the availability (or lack thereof) of our players, but if you did a poll of the people over in the USA forums our first 11 would contain 8 or 9 Euro-based players: GK Kasey Keller (Germany) D Steve Cherundolo (Germany) D Oguchi Onyewu (Belgium) D Cory Gibbs (?)/Greg Berhalter (?)/Eddie Pope (MLS)/Carlos Bocanegra (England) D/MF Eddie Lewis (England) MF Claudio Reyna (England) MF John O'Brien (Holland)/Pablo Mastroeni (MLS) MF/F Landon Donovan (MLS) MF DaMarcus Beasley (Holland) F Brian McBride (England) F Eddie Johnson (MLS) Bobby Convey (MF, England) is sometimes mentioned as a starter and will probably be on the roster for the WC (going by all the talk here on BS). Marcus Hahneman (GK, England) is the favorite to be our backup GK. (And, just for the sake of listing more USA players in Europe, let's not forget Brad Friedel (GK, England)....though he is "retired" from the national team now.) There are a couple of other MLS players who seem to be making a case for being starting 11 material: Clint Dempsey (MF), Taylor Twellman (F) Josh Wolff (F, MLS) is not a favorite at all to be a starter, but I expect him to be on the roster and contribute at the WC. It all depends on the health/fitness of our players at gametime, but most USA fans would put a minimum of 7 Euro-basd players in the starting 11. Our injured players who need to get healthy before the WC are: Reyna Gibbs O'Brien Mastroeni
Basically all of Japan's players abroad are or were on the NT except for Kenji Fukuda, who plays in the Spanish second division now, and Sota Hirayama, but most people in Japan want Hirayama to be given a callup soon. It is his first season as a pro and he has scored 7 goals with limited service since he is on a weak team. There are no defenders abroad because they are not big and fast enough I guess. Well actually Koji Nakata played fullback at Marseille but he is better as a midfielder (just the former Japan coach Troussier was in love with him and made him fullback at Marseille). The starting keeper Kawaguchi used to be overseas but came back. Keepers also are not tall enough and don't have the English skills needed to communicate with the defense. Attacking Midfielders: Matsui, Daisuke - Le Mans (France) Nakata, Hidetoshi - Bolton (England) Nakamura, Shunsuke - Celtic (Scotland) Defensive Midfielders: Inamoto, Junichi - West Brom (England) Nakata, Koji - FC Basel (Switzerland) Forwards: Yanagisawa, Atsushi - Messina (Italy) Takahara, Naohiro - Hamburg SV (Germany) Suzuki, Takayuki - FC Red Star Belgrade (Serbia) Oguro, Masashi - Grenoble (France II) Okubo, Yoshito - Mallorca (Spain) Hirayama, Sota - Heracles Almelo (Holland) Fukuda, Kenji - Castellón (Spain II) So as you can see there are a little more Americans abroad, but Japan has a lot more FWs and attacking midfielders abroad. It may seem strange because Japan isn't known for its scoring ability, but foreign teams always find some quality they like in the FWs, and the players are eager to go abroad since they know it will make them better. Depending on the formation, about 5-6 players that start for Japan NT will be overseas players, but when you take into consideration that its almost the whole attack plus their substitutes, it leaves Japan pretty thin when they aren't around. Shinji Ono is now back in the J-league so he was able to play against the US, but he is just recovering from injury. And Zico was desperate to try him as a playmaker while Nakamura and Nakata weren't present, but it backfired as it left no talented defensive midfielders behind him, with Inamoto and Koji Nakata being abroad (and Hidetoshi Nakata who can play the defensive role). Well I think Zico could have found better players if he gave guys a chance... sorry if this was long but then again there is no point in discussion if we can't learn stuff.
Thank you rougou for your input on the Japanese national team here and on the USA board. Below is my knowledge on the USA players playing abroad. We actually have a lot of players playing abroad, atleast 150 players. You can check the list here: https://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?t=235313 Of the >150 players abroad, here are the list of players that actually starters or on the bench with the first team in better leagues(no youth or reserved players listed): Beasley DaMarcus 1982 PSV Eindhoven Holland Berhalter Gregg 1973 Energie Cottbus Germany Bocanegra Carlos 1979 Fulham FC England Brown Adin 1978 Aalesund FK Norway Califf Danny 1980 Aalborg BK Denmark Casey Conor 1981 1. FSV Mainz Germany Cherundulo Steve 1979 Hannover 96 Germany Convey Bobby 1983 Reading FC England Corrales Ramiro 1977 Ham-Kam Norway DeMerit Jay 1979 Watford FC England Feilhaber Benny 1985 Hamburger SV Germany Friedel Brad 1971 Blackburn England Gibbs Cory 1980 ADO Den Haag Holland Hahnemann Marcus 1972 Reading England Howard Tim 1979 Manchester United England Johnson Jemal 1985 Blackburn Rovers England Karbasiyoon Danny 1984 Burnley England Keller Kasey 1969 Borussia Moenchengladbach Germany Lewis Eddie 1974 Leeds United England McBride Brian 1972 Fulham FC England Nguyen Lee 1986 PSV Eindhoven Holland O'Brien John 1977 ADO Den Haag Holland Oneywu Oguchi 1982 Standard Liege Belgium Pearce Heath 1984 FC Nordsjælland Denmark Philipakos Peter 1983 Aris Saloniki Greece Reyna Claudio 1973 Manchester City England Rossi Giuseppe 1987 Manchester United England Simek Frank 1984 Sheffield Wednesday England Spector Jonathan 1986 Charlton Athletic England West Brian 1978 Fredrikstad FK Norway Whitbread Zak 1984 Milwall England 6 forwards, 7 mids. A lot of these players will be called in when we have training camps in Europe. A few will not be called in because it is already too late in the cycle or our coach feels that the players in MLS are better. When all of our players are healthy 9 starters would be from Europe, and 2 from MLS. Trust me, depth isn't something the US lacked. It is world class players like Ronaldinho, Zidane that we are lacking.
Good posts there from namdynamo and dsp87260 explaining the depth of the US side. One question I would like to ask the Japan supporters is, "Isn't there a Japanese guy who could take the helm of the JNT instead of Zico?" It certainly is not the right time to replace him, but isn't there a Japanese coach who could do the job better?
Yeah, but I was just trying to stick to the players I felt would be starting or at least on the roster for the world cup (although I did gratuitously throw in the Friedel reference). I wasn't trying to troll or anything, but I had seen it discussed earlier and no one had pointed out that we indeed did have most of our starters/best players in Europe (more than Japan, despite what Zico said).....that and I don't really know any of the Japanese players very well so I figured either way it would be educational for someone (the Japanese fans or me).
I agree with you. Abe will be the best of the three when Inamoto is not in the squad. Endo is not a player who can get to cover for Inamoto's absence , rather he will be only some useful when Nakata and Ono are not in the squad and he plays along with Inamoto. About Fukunishi , honestly I don't like him.
Well I would choose Takeshi Okada, one of the former NT managers. He did a good job leading the Marinos to 2 league championships in a row. Since foreign coaches seem to be in style a lot of people would pick JEF United's Croatian manager Ivica Osim. The JFA might want him to take over after the World Cup, but there might be health issues with him. He recently bashed Zico as described in this article: http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/dy/sports/20060208TDY24004.htm I don't agree with him about Nakata and Nakamura, as they have done very well abroad, but he is right about Zico's selection process in general.
Yeh, not many Japanese seem to know much about US soccer, so there is nothing wrong with posting stuff especially since this is a relevant thread (unfortunately there aren't that many Japanese to reach here). The informed fans will know US's ranking and the progress they are making, but the average person just associates US with "the big 4" sports. I think Zico might be one of those people too
The last two coaches have been foreigners; the two before them were Japanese. The problems that occurred with those Japanese coaches, however, caused the JFA to decide not to choose another coach from Japan for the time being. They may go back to a domestic coach after Zico, but the reasoning is actually pretty sound: - Japanese coaches, because they speak Japanese (well . . . they ARE Japanese), will be extremely succeptible to pressure from the press, which can be really brutal (the press nearly destroyed Okada, even though he is clearly a very good coach. It took him almost four years to recover, and he was only in the job for about one year). - Japanese coaches are likely to get caught up in team-related politics, which can sometimes be even more cutthroat than the press (this has even happened to Zico, and he isnt even Japanese). - Japanese coaches are not well known overseas, and will have a harder time using their connections to get Japan good friendlies (dont know if this one is accurate any longer, but eight years ago it certainly was). - If Japanese coaches make "controversial" personnel decisions, players may develop a vendetta against them (as Kazu has done against Okada for almost a full decade). - Foreign coaches are easier to fire. If a Japanese coach doesnt work out, it may be hard to get rid of him until its too late (this nearly cost Japan qualification in 1998, because the JFA kept wavering about whether to fire Kamo or not, and when they finally pulled the trigger, it was almost too late). If a foreign coach isnt getting results, you can toss him out in a matter of hours. - etc. Like I said, I dont know how many of these reasons are still applicable, but if you have any familiarity with the Japanese press, and the JFA, you will quickly realise that the Japan NT coach is better off if he can maintain as much distance between himself and these two groups as possible. That might be very difficult for a Japanese coach to do. I think there are several Japanese coaches who are absolutely qualified to coach *A* national team. But not the Japan NT. . . . And that has nothing to do with coaching ability. It has to do with the dodgy politics and social pressures that they would face.
So you admit that you were making the "facts" conveniently fit your argument. I guess I shouldn't have expected any more from a Wynalda fan.
huh? not exactly.....I said I didn't know about the Japanese players (ie how good they were, etc.) but from the evidence I saw put forward before I posted and just from common sense, I was pretty sure Zico was wrong. It turns out I was right now wasn't I? (Just like Wynalda a lot of the time.)
It's an interesting contrast to the US, because our distribution of overseas players is almost exactly the opposite. Most of our best goalkeepers and defenders play abroad... so do many of our attacking players, but in general the defensive players have had more success in Europe, while our MLS attacking players are almost on a par with our Euro attacking players.