US-Panama and hands to the face

Discussion in 'Referee' started by superdave, Mar 29, 2017.

  1. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    There were at least 3 incidents where Panamians out their hands/arms out in the run of play and struck Yanks in the face. Not one got a yellow. I remember Agoos getting a straight red for such a play. Now, in my opinion, none of the Canaleros used as much force as Agoos, so I'm not arguing for reds. But no yellows?
     
    BTFOOM repped this.
  2. BTFOOM

    BTFOOM Member+

    Apr 5, 2004
    MD, USA
    Club:
    FC Bayern München
    Welcome to US Qualifying on the road in Central America. This is typical behavior AND non-calls by the ref.
     
  3. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    There seemed to be a general aversion to yellows, period, from what I watched. You had 24 fouls, some of them pretty hard, and no yellows. If Ramos wasn't willing to pull a yellow for PI or a hard tackle or a tactical foul, you're dreaming if a flailing arm that could plausibly be excused as "accidental" would get cautioned. And to be honest, I was much more concerned about the targeting of Pulisic than any hands to face we saw yesterday.

    As for Agoos, first that was 20 years ago--things change. Second it was the single referee in the world who was probably most likely to give a red for something like that at the time. And third, Agoos was turning to look toward the Mexican player as he struck him, so it was impossible to argue it wasn't deliberate.
     
    cmonref, SouthRef, refinDC and 1 other person repped this.
  4. Ickshter

    Ickshter Member+

    Manchester City
    Mar 14, 2014
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    Exactly. I cannot believe that we didn't see any YC's for some of those fouls. I mean straight behind the player with NO chance to play the ball and swipes both legs out from behind. How much more do you need? That game really could've used a few cautions IMHO
     
  5. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    Since the US plays Mexico (the marquee game in CONCACAF) in the qualifying match after next, I wouldn't be surprised if the referees were told to keep their cards in their pockets to prevent players from picking up a suspension due to accumulation.

    Only one US player was booked in the Honduras game and Mexico had a total of 3 cautions in their two games this weekend.
     
  6. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I don't think that happened explicitly. But the position some of these referees are in did cross my mind over the weekend. For the first two Hexes, no referees from countries involved in the Hex were allowed to referee. Back then (and earlier) our top referees went to other confederations for qualifiers and outside referees came here. And technically speaking, using referees from Hex countries is a violation of World Cup regulations, but apparently CONCACAF and its members have decided they don't care and/or they got a FIFA waiver.

    Ever since they've allowed Hex referees to come from countries that are playing in the tournament (that coincided with the move to pre-selected WC candidate lists in 2006), you end up with situations where a referee from one country could affect who is on the field against their nation in the next matchday. It's particularly pronounced this year and already happened 4 times over the first 2 matchdays. It's just not a good situation to be in. What if Geiger does get Mexico v Honduras next matchday, right before Mexico plays the US? Any controversial red card or suspension for yellow accumulation would be very bad from a public relations standpoint. I don't think referees are told to keep the cards in their pocket, but I think they all know the potential consequences are if they are liberal with them and they are wrong.

    Also, strictly to the point of the US v Honduras game, I'd argue that zero US players should have been booked and that one was too many. Sometimes, there just aren't that many cautionable offences--particularly when you're winning 6-0 and there are no major incidents, other than the tackle on Lletget.
     
  7. EvanJ

    EvanJ Member+

    Manchester United
    United States
    Mar 30, 2004
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I read that Bradley got away with a handball. Phil Schoen said it was Jones. Does anybody have video of it and should it have been called?
     
  8. sitruc

    sitruc Member+

    Jul 25, 2006
    Virginia
    The ball hit Bradley's arm near his shoulder and then hit the hand of Jones about a second later.
     
    EvanJ repped this.
  9. SouthRef

    SouthRef Member+

    Arsenal
    Jun 10, 2006
    USA
    Club:
    Rangers
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The 1997 incident with Agoos is here (start at 2:35)



    Not the hardest hit I've seen, for sure, but 100% intentional strike to the face.

    That takes me back, though... The first WCQ series I really followed carefully.

    Also, I think that was the only one in the last 20 years that the referees were assigned by FIFA directly and were not restricted to confederations. That was a good idea, in my opinion - I wonder why they stopped doing this?
     
    IASocFan and dadman repped this.
  10. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Me too, though I paid some attention to UEFA in 1993, to the extent is was possible back then!

    Note quite. In the 2001 Hex, all the referees were from outside CONCACAF or from CONCACAF nations not in the Hex (until the final matchday, when it became irrelevant).

    I'm also not sure if FIFA made the assignments directly or if CONCACAF arranged them so it didn't run afoul of WC regulations. Technically speaking, FIFA does not allow referees to be from the same group that their home nation is playing in during WCQ. CONMEBOL got a bit of an exception when it moved to the single table in 96-97 because otherwise no South American referees could work those games (even then, for nearly the entire second half of the schedule, only Brazilian or CONCACAF referees worked the matches--Esse Baharmast got two big matches this way). CONCACAF apparently didn't get its exception until 2006 qualifying. It looks like the rule still applies in all other confederations, save the for the rare occasion where a referee's own team is already qualified or eliminated at the very end of the process. But CONMEBOL and CONCACAF have decided, I presume with FIFA's okay, that they will just use their own referees.

    No matter what, things were definitely different back then. In 93, 97, and 01, it was not uncommon at all for referees to be moving around among confederations. It would be crazy today for a non-UEFA referee to get a UEFA qualifier, but (using just one example) Brizio Carter did a really big England-Norway match at Wembley in 1992. That would never happen now but looking back, it seems like WC candidates, past WC referees (and future ones) were deliberately sent around the world to do big matches, get more experience and to be tested. In 1997, both Esse Baharmast and Arturo Angeles went to Asia late in the process (Baharmast for South Korea v Japan; Angeles for China v Kuwait) as well as big name referees like David Elleray, Horacio Elizondo, Kim Milton Nielsen and Mario Van der Ende. Baharmast did 5 or more big WCQs, all outside CONCACAF, in 1997. The practice became less common in 2001 (Hall did Saudi Arabia v Thailand, but not sure of any others). And it seemed to disappear entirely in 2005. Too bad, in my opinion.
     
  11. cmonref

    cmonref Member

    Oct 16, 2016
    Stillwater
    Diverse game experience makes great referees. Great shame they don't get the experience anymore, but politics conquers all.
     

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