US Goalkeeper discussion thread - Part III

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by ussoccer97531, Nov 15, 2017.

  1. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    That probably fair.

    Something simlar applies to Hamid. What has ever done? He has always been extremely over rated. Not sure how he was GK of the year in 2014, but most likely people ignoring his flaws and focusing on his athleticism. Either way, his standing in the league has declined since then. He failed in Denmark! Id guess people who like to compare leagues would claim that it is lower than MLS. What is clear is that he had competition for the job and couldnt beat it out. He also had at least one really poor game. His national team experiences are just as poor. He has either stood there with nothing to do and gave up 6 goals in 2 games vs Ireland. He has gotten his shot and shown he doesnt belong, but people ask about him regularly. That is much more annoying than someone guessing at young players and chooses a former u20 player on a Bundesliga's second team.
     
  2. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    I don't really understand why Hamid has become the target here. Since 2012 he's averaged less than a cap a year. And there's a reason for that. We all know what he is. He's a USMNT pool player, but not one that's been a key part of the group. And he won't be a key part of the group unless he can beat out the likes of Steffen. There's no evidence that will occur. I don't see posters passionately demanding Bill Hamid callups. So we're all kinda arguing about nothing.

    There are a whole bunch of MLS keepers that are in the same band in terms of the USMNT pool. Other than Steffen, none have really distinguished themselves. Hamid is one of those choices, that's why he's still in the group. I mean, we called up Tyler Miller to January camp. Fine, whatever. A previous poster has mentioned Bono. He's also been called up in the last calendar year. Fine.

    Last year the top 5 finishers in MLS keeper of the Year voting were................Steffen, Frei, Robles, Melia, Guzan. After Steffen, those other 4 are all 33 years old or older. [Melia turns 33 next week.]

    Hence why the competition after Steffen and Horvath is WIDE OPEN. What I do know is that a keeper who doesn't actually get a chance to play first team soccer, like Klinsmann right now, is unlikely to earn the spot.

    For the Gold Cup this summer I'd call up Steffen, Horvath, and Jesse Gonzalez.
     
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  3. LouisianaViking07/09

    Aug 15, 2009
    I concur. JK is more potential theoretically than concrete. Though, he did play in a Europa League match against a Swedish side like a year and a half ago.
     
  4. ifsteve

    ifsteve Member

    Manchester United
    United States
    Jul 7, 2013
    MS and ID
    Club:
    Real Salt Lake
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I don't care that Klinsmann hasn't "done anything" yet. I am not talking about putting him in the squad for Gold Cup or Quals. In fact I listed him after Steffen, Horvath, and Brad.

    But for a friendly I would absolutely rather see JK than Hamid. The potential upside for him is way way higher than Hamid. So yes I would put JK on the squad before Hamid. So get him in camp, give him some training with the squad and build for the future. Hamid isn't in the future.
     
  5. TimB4Last

    TimB4Last Member+

    May 5, 2006
    Dystopia
    [​IMG]

    I'm not?
     
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  6. mattjo

    mattjo Member+

    Feb 3, 2001
    Washington DC
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    So a goalie who splits time for Hertha II in the fourth tier in Germany (13 starts) belongs in the NATS squad? Why are we preordaining him? He may turn out to be gangbusters, but I don't know why we would give him a spot over any other promising young goalkeeper, (should we call in Marcinkowski, Scott, and David Ochoa too? ). Why don't we let them prove it at the club level first; we also have the Olympics and other competitions in which they can get a bit more seasoning.?
     
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  7. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    I would argue we do not have any evidence that Klinsmann's upside is higher than Hamid's. What is that based on?

    USYNT watchers wouldn't even have Klinsmann ranked as the top youth keeper in Germany. That would likely be Brady Scott of Koln, who won the Golden Gloves as the best keeper at the recent U20 CONCACAF Championships.

    [​IMG]
     
  8. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    You seem like you really want to debate Klinsmann. I dont care if you want to replace with another prospect like Scott. The point being is that since there is a drop off in potential in our GKs after Steffen and Horvath, I'd rather give camps and friendly minutes to young guys with potential than guys like Hamid who I dont think has the potential to be an international quality GK that we have become accustom to over the years.

    Specifically on Klinsmann, he definitely has more upside potential than Hamid. He has the physical tools and many years to develop into a quality goalkeeper. That doesnt mean he will reach it, but the potential is there. Giving young players shots doesnt guarantee them anything. It simply gives them an opportunity to show what they can do and gain experience.

    This whole idea of earning seems to be something that Arena created in his second cycle. I havent seen anything to believe we are any better than we were in the 90s. Three of our top four goalkeepers were given a shot before "earning it". I could probably argue that Arena held back Howard. I thought it was great that Gansler benched Vanole and let a 19 yo college kid play in goal for qualifying.
     
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  9. mattjo

    mattjo Member+

    Feb 3, 2001
    Washington DC
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    There is a difference though. Meola just beat Vanole out. It wasn't based on potential. It was based on the right then and now.
     
  10. LouisianaViking07/09

    Aug 15, 2009
    JK is only potential at this rate. Heck, even Howard is more likely to be called up than he. JK needs to find a level where he can be no.1 Even if it's 3 Bundesliga
     
  11. LouisianaViking07/09

    Aug 15, 2009
    what's the 411 on this kid?
     
  12. ifsteve

    ifsteve Member

    Manchester United
    United States
    Jul 7, 2013
    MS and ID
    Club:
    Real Salt Lake
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Some of you seem to be over the top with my thinking on JK so I'll try and be crystal clear.

    1. My current pecking order for games of significance is Steffen, Horvath, with Guzan a fallback.
    2. I am not anointing JK with anything. I just think he has potential worth calling in to a camp for friendlies to get him started down the path the staff would like to see.
    3. I am fine with Scott too for that matter.
    4. Hamid has shown me plenty and that plenty says he is too inconsistent for international play. He isn't as good as Steffen or Horvath IMO. And I would take Guzan over him. So I see no reason to continue to bring him in. He isnt in my plans today and he sure as hell isn't down the road. But JK (and Scott) MIGHT be.
     
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  13. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    Meola couldn't have beaten out Vanole if he hadn't been called up and given a chance. JK and Marcinkowski were recently called up to our u23s. Let's fast track those guys and even those in the u20 pool into our senior team with no expectations beyond getting them exposed to the level of play.
     
  14. mattjo

    mattjo Member+

    Feb 3, 2001
    Washington DC
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    So you believe right now our young keepers are good enough to beat out the established starter/front runner? (just like Meola did when given the chance... was he given the chance because he was young or because he was better. Those are two very distinct qualities).

    On top of that, aren't we young at keeper already? Our front runner is 24; our #2 and #3 in my mind are Sean Johnson (29) and Horvath (23) (partially due to the system Berhalter plays that requires keepers to play with their feet. Frankly, that is a shortcoming for Horvath just as it is for Hamid- I like Bill, but don't think he fits the system and really struggles playing with his feet. Horvath could end up with a similar problem if he doesn't improve in that area).
     
  15. LouisianaViking07/09

    Aug 15, 2009
    JK and Scott can battle it out in the u-23's. Plenty of chances there.
    I concur with your pecking order though I'd rank no.3 as a free-for-all with Guzan/Johnson/Hamid/Gonzalez.

    I'm not sure if Hamid did himself any favors with stating his opinion. Dude needs to return to Denmark and show what he can do. Even if he's only ever a no.3, at least he tried.
     
  16. ifsteve

    ifsteve Member

    Manchester United
    United States
    Jul 7, 2013
    MS and ID
    Club:
    Real Salt Lake
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Certainly they both should be with the U-23s first and foremost but that is not the same as getting called to a camp with the big boys which I would do at my first opportunity.
     
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  17. gunnerfan7

    gunnerfan7 Member+

    SJ Earthquakes/Arsenal
    United States
    Jul 22, 2012
    Pleasanton, California
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The way I see it, we have three young-ish GK's with high potential. Steffen (24), Horvath (23), and Gonzalez (23).

    We have a couple of highly-rated teenage GK prospects that are on our YNT's in Brady Scott (19) and Damian Las (17).

    We have several veteran GK's with not much (or zero) NT experience, and not great resume's in Hamid (28), Frei (33), Melia (33), Johnson (29), Robles (34).

    We have 3 old GK's that have lots of NT experience. Howard, Rimando, and Guzan (34). The first two are retiring after this season.

    As far as I'm concerned, I don't see much point in bringing in anyone from the veteran-but-zero-US-experience category unless someone's injured. Guzan is perfectly placed to play the Rimando role for us, we have at least 2 excellent young GK's ahead of him, and 2 teenage GK prospects to put in there as well.
     
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  18. LouisianaViking07/09

    Aug 15, 2009
    Forhet Guzan. Out with the old,in with the new. Id reckon with Johnson or Gonzalez as a no.3.Gonzalez will hopefully improve. Johnson is reliable to a degree. Guzan had his chance. Besides is he willing to ride the bench?
     
  19. ifsteve

    ifsteve Member

    Manchester United
    United States
    Jul 7, 2013
    MS and ID
    Club:
    Real Salt Lake
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Exactly my point when I started the no Hamid discussion. Whether you think Steffen or Horvath should be 1 or 2 I don't think there is much argument that together they are 1 and 2. And there are loads of guys to give #3 roles to depending on the match situation. Guzan, Gonzalez, Johnson, and yes several kids which I have lobbied for. There is just no reason IMO to look at Hamid anymore. And if I was in charge I probably wouldn't look at anybody but a young kid at #3 moving forward.
     
  20. soccersubjectively

    soccersubjectively BigSoccer Supporter

    Jan 17, 2012
    Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This is a good point but it's also worth noting that he got his chance at Virginia and the U20s. A player proves themselves at a lower level, which Klinsmann and JTM haven't. Simply capping a player does very little for their overall development.

    Also Meola was on another level than those gks, and we know that because of what they have (or haven't shown) at lower levels.
     
  21. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    I have no idea and would guess not. I really have no idea who will be our top GK in in 3 years and 7 years, and since we don't know who our 3rd GK is today, I'd go with a veteran like Guzan or look at the ones who have the potential to be down the road. The biggest point about Meola was that he didnt meet the criteria that the poster was creating. My argument was as specific to say these younger players could win the #1 spot, but they might be able to add needed depth and who knows beyond that.

    If you are worried about being young, then Guzan is the right choice. 28 and 29 yo players with limited international team don't add much and are basically just taking up a spot of someone who has potential. I don't care for Hamid at all. I think he is a poor GK who relies on his athleticism. He has never faced the pressure a goalkeeper has to face at the highest level.
     
  22. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    What had Meola done that Klinsmann hadn't when he got his first cap in 1988? Both played at the u20 WC. A much better comparison to Meola would be Steffen. In 2015, Steffen was am NCAA all-American and had a successful YWC. I view him as at least as talented as Meola back then but he didnt get called up until 2016 and wasn't capped until 2018. It would have likely been earlier if not for Arena.

    I didnt say anything about simply capping them. I thought we were talking about the #3 GK. I'm not sure he would even get capped. I'd think just a few camps could be quite beneficial for a young goalkeeper. Just training at a higher level can provide quite a bit information for GK who is looking to improve. I bet Steffen was glad in 2018 that he had been in a camp before.

    Probably, but why does that matter. We should only make exceptions to stupid rules when the player is the best? We also know Meola wasnt up to the level many thought in 1990. He needed a lot more experience at higher levels.
     
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  23. Dr.Phil

    Dr.Phil Member+

    Jan 18, 2004
    Club:
    FC Bayern München
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I wonder how close vom Steeg is to Marcinkowski and Klinsmann. The Galaxy II games I have seen him in he has looked good and a lot more confident.
     
  24. ChuckMe92

    ChuckMe92 Member+

    Jun 23, 2016
    Columbus, OH
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'm guessing the top three at the next camp would be Steffen, Horvath, Gonzalez, and correctly so. First two are clear selections, especially Horvath who is arguably the top GK in the Belgian league right now and has become a vocal leader for Club Brugge, and is reportedly drawing interest from English and German clubs. Who should start is another question but it seems clear those are the top two in whichever order. Gonzalez was called to the March camp and is not only third in MLS in GAA and fifth in save percentage, but also second place in pass success rate. Gonzalez has more work to do before clearly being a national team-caliber GK, but he's more deserving than other remaining options, especially with his young age and high upside.
     
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  25. LouisianaViking07/09

    Aug 15, 2009
    Johnson has gotten many call-ups this year so far. Though, calling him in just to ride the pine will upset his club. Though I agree Gonzalez should be included.
     

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