You might have noticed that Uruguay has 4 stars on their jersey - it because of their '24 and '28 Olympic titles which are officially acknowledged as World Championships by FIFA. At first I thought it might be a bit of a joke and revisionist like FIFA awarding the Golden Balls and making All Star teams which don't make much sense looking at the opinions back then. However I found material which suggest the idea that the Olympic games crowned the World Champion wasn't uncommen back in the days. This is from the Austrian Sporttagblatt one day after Uruguay won the '28 final: The article also states: "....for the second time in a row Uruguay achieved the title of a World Champion" The last minute of the '50 WC final. Quote around 0:55 "...World Champions for the 4th time". The announcer is Uruguayan so there might be some bias. Just found it interesting and wanted to share it. The Olympics arguably had a higher quality of competition than the 1930 WC so I don't have a problem with this.
I'm not surprised. It actually makes sense to have competition for world championships for more often. In no other sport is the world championship decided in 1-month tournament every 4 years. I'd like to know more about this, actually. Are you talking about the likes of Leonidas, Zizinho, and Nasazzi winning the Golden Balls? I don't even remember who was in the all-star teams back then. I remember seeing Monti featuring in both the '30 and '34 version, for Argentina and Italy respectively.
How do you rate, the competition at WCs 1930, 1950 and the Olympics from 1920 to 1952? Probably WCs 1934, 38, 54 were the higher contested
Yeah I'm 99% sure there was no Golden Ball/All Star team back then. Never seen it mention anywhere in contemporary magazines. I think @comme said they were 'made up' too IIRC. I don't know when FIFA made them retrospectively. edit: it's actually explained on wikipedia.... No mention of pre '58. "The current award was introduced in the 1982 FIFA World Cup, sponsored by Adidas and France Football, though fifa.com also lists in their player articles as "golden ball winners" Kempes, Cruyff, Pelé, Bobby Charlton, Garrincha and Didi for 1978, 1974, 1970, 1966, 1962 and 1958 respectively."
Yes, and the 'official' allstar teams only began in 1994. Those retrospective things were made in run-up to the 2002 World Cup. For 1974 and 1978 FIFA took over the 'unofficial' journalist vote integrally, except for in the 'unofficial' journalist vote Krankl ended level with Dirceu, but FIFA only lists Dirceu for bronze. 1. Kempes 2. Rossi 3. Krankl, Dirceu 5. Krol 6. Fillol, Haan, Rensenbrink 9. Luque 10. Cubillas, Hellstrom 12. Passarella 13. Rep, Lato, Bettega, Neeskens, Tresor
Would it be possible to actually make a better list of Bronze/Silver/Golden Ball winners and all-star team, using contemporary sources?
I'm not completely certain about the 1930s tournaments but would say Uruguay had their fortune in 1950. They didn't need to qualify because Ecuador and Peru withdrew beforehand. Then they only needed to beat Bolivia to progress to the final round - Bolivia was very arguably the weakest team in the 1950 tournament. In the final round they tied Spain and then beat a Sweden that already knew they weren't going to win this thing in all likelihood (had been beaten 7-1 by Brazil, making it virtually impossible to become #1 in the group). The third win was the famous Brazil upset (anyone stats about shots on goal for both teams?). All in all, Uruguay won three games, from qualifiers to final. That is generally not enough. After they beat Brazil, they were still only 10th in the Elo ranking and without checking I'd doubt it whether another WC or euro winner had the same. Greece in 2004 was 7th-8th after their win. Denmark in 1992 7th. On the other hand, it is not easy beforehand to get results against Spain, Sweden and Brazil, but they can't complain about the trajectory and order of play.
After a transition from its strong generation of the early 1940s, at the WC 1950 Uruguay lined up a new core of players, based in Peñarol, champion of the previous year, after a chaotic league at 1948. Ok, there were 3/4 veteran players in the starting XI, but the context in the local league with stars playing abroad and the emergence of new stars, made Uruguay a different team than those playing the previous official tournaments
Let's face it, the quality of WC-1930 was no good. It was a jacked up Copa America. The semi-finalists included the US and Yugoslavia. US, including leftover players from the British lower leagues. The US who got absolutely hammered two years previously and four years later. Yugoslavia who failed to qualify for the other two incomplete pre-war World Cups. Off hand I'd say any Olympic Tournament until at least '52 was a more prestigious tournament than 1930. And WC-1950 is more prestigious than any Olympic Tournament.
It's a bit off-topic, but here's my attempt for strengths. Giving 4 points for top guns until 1 point for 4th tier NTs. Withdrew teams in red. OG 1920: (14 teams) 1st tier - Scotland, England 2nd tier - Uruguay, Argentina, Czechoslovakia, Hungary 3rd tier - Denmark, Belgium, Spain, Austria, Brazil, Netherlands, Wales, Ireland 4th tier - Sweden, Paraguay, Italy, Norway, France, Egypt, South Africa, Switzerland, Germany, England-amateur ENTERING --> 1st-0, 2nd-1, 3rd-4, 4th-6 OG 1920 strenght = 3x1 + 2x4 + 1x6 = 17 points OG 1924: (22 teams) 1st tier - Scotland, England, Uruguay, 2nd tier - Argentina, Czechoslovakia, Hungary 3rd tier - Denmark, Belgium, Spain, Austria, Switzerland, Brazil, Netherlands, Sweden Wales, N,Ireland 4th tier - Paraguay, Italy, Norway, France, Egypt, South Africa, Germany, England-amateur ENTERING --> 1st-1, 2nd-2, 3rd-5, 4th-3 OG 1924 strenght = 4x1 + 3x2 + 2x5 + 1x3 = 23 points OG 1928: (17 teams) 1st tier - Scotland, England, Uruguay, 2nd tier - Argentina, Czechoslovakia, Hungary 3rd tier - Denmark, Belgium, Italy, Spain, Austria, Switzerland, Brazil, Netherlands, Sweden Wales, N,Ireland 4th tier - Paraguay, Norway, France, Egypt, South Africa, Germany, Portugal, Yugoslavia, Chile ENTERING --> 1st-1, 2nd-1, 3rd-5, 4th-3 OG 1928 strenght = 4x1 + 3x1 + 2x5 + 1x6 = 23 points WC 1930: (13 teams) 1st tier - Scotland, England, Uruguay 2nd tier - Argentina, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Austria 3rd tier - Denmark, Belgium, Switzerland, Brazil, Netherlands, Italy, Spain, Sweden, Wales, N,Ireland 4th tier - Paraguay, Norway, France, Egypt, South Africa, Germany, Portugal, Chile, USA, Yugoslavia, Perú, Romania ENTERING --> 1st-1, 2nd-1, 3rd-2, 4th-7 WC 1930 strenght = 4x1 + 3x1 + 2x2 + 1x6 = 18 points WC 1934: (6 teams + qualifiers) 1st tier - England, Austria, Italy 2nd tier - Argentina, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Spain, Uruguay, Scotland 3rd tier - Belgium, Switzerland, Brazil, Germany, Netherlands, Sweden, Wales, N,Ireland 4th tier - Paraguay, Denmark, Norway, France, Portugal, Chile, USA, Egypt, Yugoslavia, Romania, Perú, Argentina-amateur ENTERING --> 1st-2, 2nd-3, 3rd-6, 4th-6 WC 1934 strenght = 4x2 + 3x3 + 2x6 + 1x5 = 35 points OG 1936: (16 teams) 1st tier - England, Argentina, Italy, Austria 2nd tier - Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Germany, Brazil, Spain, Uruguay, Scotland 3rd tier - Belgium, Switzerland, Netherlands, Sweden, Italy-amateur, Austria-amateur, England-amateur, Wales, N,Ireland, Perú 4th tier - Paraguay, Denmark, Norway, Egypt, France, Portugal, Chile, Yugoslavia, Romania, Poland, USA, Hungary-amateur, Japan ENTERING --> 2nd-1, 3rd-5, 4th-6 OG 1936 strenght = 3x1 + 2x5 + 1x6 = 19 points WC 1938: (15 teams + qualifiers) 1st tier - England, Argentina, Italy 2nd tier - Austria, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Germany, Brazil, Spain, Uruguay, Scotland 3rd tier - Belgium, Switzerland, Netherlands, Sweden, Perú 4th tier - Paraguay, Wales, N,Ireland, Denmark, Norway, France, Portugal, Chile, Yugoslavia, Romania, Poland ENTERING --> 1st-1, 2nd-5, 3rd-4, 4th-6 WC 1938 strenght = 4x1 + 3x5 + 2x4 + 1x6 = 33 points OG 1948: (18 teams) 1st tier - England, Argentina 2nd tier - Hungary, Brazil, Italy, Uruguay 3rd tier - Denmark, Austria, Yugoslavia, Sweden, Czechoslovakia, Spain, Scotland, Paraguay, Perú 4th tier - Switzerland, Belgium, France-A, Germany, Portugal, N,Ireland, Wales, Chile, Netherlands, England-amateur, Italy-amateur, Turkey ENTERING --> 1st-0, 2nd-0, 3rd-4, 4th-4 OG 1948 strenght = 4x0 + 3x0 + 2x4 + 1x4 = 12 points WC 1950: (13 teams + qualifiers) 1st tier - England, Argentina, Brazil 2nd tier - Hungary, Italy, Uruguay, Sweden-A, 3rd tier - Denmark, Austria, Yugoslavia, Spain, Sweden-B, Italy-B, Scotland, Paraguay,-A Perú, Czechoslovakia 4th tier - Switzerland, Belgium, France, Germany, Portugal, Paraguay-B, Chile, N,Ireland, Wales, Netherlands ENTERING --> 1st-2, 2nd-1, 3rd-5, 4th-7 WC 1950 strenght = 4x2 + 3x1 + 2x5 + 1x7 = 28 points OG 1952: (25 teams) 1st tier - Hungary, Brazil, Argentina 2nd tier - England, Uruguay, Austria, Yugoslavia, Sweden-A, 3rd tier - Denmark-A, Czechoslovakia, Italy-A, Spain, Germany-A, Scotland, Paraguay, Perú, Sweden-B, USSR 4th tier - Switzerland, Belgium, France-A, Portugal, N,Ireland, Wales, Chile-A, Turkey-A, Brazil-amateur, Austria-amateur, Denmark-B ENTERING --> 1st-1, 2nd-1, 3rd-2, 4th-3 OG 1952 strenght = 4x1 + 3x1 + 2x2 + 1x3 = 14 points
I looked up the rosters for uruguay CA49 and can barely recognize players. They really tanked their elo rating with losing games there - any chances they just send a B squad?
I didn't know that FIFA officially acknowledged 1924 and 1928 as World Championships but I think it's a good decision by FIFA. To me there is no doubt that these Olympic football tournaments were of the highest competitive level at the time and Uruguay was quite clearly winning these deservingly and were lauded as the world's best team. Of course it's always unfortunate that England and Scotland weren't present but that's just the way it is.
Is this before or after the tournament? I mentioned it before (also for Puskas pre-1952 and his sudden corrective jump in international fame) but the interesting thing about 1952 Hungary is that they only sporadically played top teams before this. https://www.eloratings.net/Hungary The last occasion before the 1952 Olympics was the amateur team of Sweden in November 1949, beating 5-0. In the three games before this draws against Italy (home), Sweden (away) and loss against Austria (away) in terms of top opponents. Uruguay of the 1920s is in Dutch newspapers mentioned as the world's best team, or somewhere near that (some narrow minded traditionalists thought only 'the English way' was the right way and how the sport was meant, imho). Their gamesmanship wasn't always appreciated, as noted here below (see also Ariaga's comments on this in the other 'old lists' thread). This was already the perception before the national team played them. https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/du...cation-1979-1994.1978389/page-4#post-36957997 http://resources.huygens.knaw.nl/bwn1880-2000/lemmata/bwn2/denis