Yes, maybe Vieri and Klose (at the prime phase of his career) are even better examples. Strange thing with RvN is (and something that actually annoyed MvB when he was NT manager) that he was occasionally capable of excellent things; a speedy dribble, a 'Laudrup shuffle' in the box but then transformed back into a tap in merchant. Later at Real Madrid (Capello) he showed more of his footballing pedigree, most agreed. Showed more of it and more consistently, and he was forced to do it unlike at ManUnited. It was a pity too that his career was marred by four heavy and serious knee injuries. Don't know whether you can pick up/understand a little bit from this but this is/was an excellent analysis and dissection http://nos.nl/video/373010-2007-van-nistelrooij-zwakke-voetballer.html IIRC MvB himself has said that Ibrahimovic and Lewandowski are most similar to him (not that he combined the best qualities/attributes of both, but a mixture of it). For ex. the part between 2:47 and 3:36 of what you show above reminds more of Ibra whereas other above mentioned parts are more like Lewandowski (if fit and in shape). Probably the qualities of Suarez fit better for Barcelona (and Neymar, Messi, Iniesta) at the moment but it would be interesting to see Lewandowski there. If Lewandowski would play instead of Benzema at Real Madrid, would he do better?
Yeah, his technique could be very good at times - the video below aids that impression (which isn't false as such, but I do think, as also shown, his brain and instinct for where to move to and how quickly he decided to move etc etc were big facets of his game - also maybe why he was said to be the ideal player to take advantage of the new offside laws when they started to come in - not only because he'd be seen as a goal poacher lol!): Vieri did have his moments of excellent skill/precision with his shooting of course: I haven't reviewed them today but maybe Klose's WC goals summarise his qualities decently - not without technical skill but not with it being the main factor for him either ofc - I wonder whether if his club form was seen more on par with his NT form he'd get more mentioned on the margins at least in this sort of topic - maybe he's in some respects the opposite to Lewandowski in that way even?
I saw this UEFA graph lately (from October 2015) (note: uncorrected for price levels and inflation) That makes it not unreasonable to think e.g. Vieri or Inzaghi would score more today if playing for the superclubs. The major drawback is that maybe the top 10 clubs demand more nowadays from a striker and he has to be made the main man. The moments that Gareth Bale can go for hat-tricks are also relatively sparse.
I had a quick watch of this (bit of a random choice): And yeah I can see the point comme and others were getting at in terms of involvement in play - there's one nice passage where he is receiving and making a few quick passes for example and at some points his touch and awareness might even make my comments seem harsh (but I was comparing him to Van Basten whose touch for a centre-forward was exceptional or even unprecedented I'd think) - I guess it's that aspect of adjusting my expectations lower and having to re-adjust though and to be fair I never said his touch was sub-standard for a top level attacker, but more sufficient than brilliant and I guess that idea does fit the overall performance and he wasn't receiving a lot of difficult or awkward balls - I think his dribbling and general running with the ball is similarly decent rather than brilliant too. He possibly scores the chance he pulls wide of the post if he'd not been on a drought, but yeah given his goalscoring capabilities I can certainly see why he'd not be thought of as conclusively a lesser player than a prime Torres or Villa or Van Nistelrooy or indeed Larsson (who along with Owen is probably a bit of a wildcard selection but I guess it's good to add them to the debate and I don't say I now don't think they were good enough all of a sudden or anything). In other words in the mix for a thread like this seems reasonable, even considering as Puck hinted at that the scoring numbers might be inflated for top club goalscorers of late. It's just that I probably don't have him making my personal top 10 but I certainly didn't want to make it seem like I was rubbishing him - I do think it's genuinely interesting though to consider which is easier re: goalscoring out of playing 10-20 years ago for a club that dominated, with his help, a smaller league or playing now for a super club that dominates more of a major league and often European games like the above one too.
You mean especially in reference to Henrik Larsson I suppose? I understand your post is more about general play, style and impression but in terms of performance it has to be said that PSV is lately even for domestic standards in poor form with difficulties to score goals (compared to last year) and supposedly exhausted players. https://www.whoscored.com/Teams/129/Fixtures/Netherlands-PSV-Eindhoven (that domestic cup game loss was with their best available team) Maybe it is in that regard better to look at the match vs Atletico Madrid instead but I get that's more about style. edit: and some attributes as first touch when fit and healthy that can be noticed without knowing the opponent (to a certain and high extent).
Yeah, that also fits the 'easy game' narrative in a way of course but I just looked up that recent game as a reference. Perhaps looking at his play vs Atletico would be a better guide to how he did under presumably more pressure and in less of a one-sided game. And thanks for the other video - I'll remind myself how much I've seen of that game a bit later too. Yes, I suppose my original comment was also that Larsson was more skilful (I commented on Van Basten after comme's comment of course) so yep I suppose that's the reference I should be thinking of. I do think Larsson was at least a bit more mobile and moved a bit more deceptively with and without the ball - partly due to size even I guess although that doesn't always have to translate and again maybe Van Basten is a good example there, though in some situations perhaps Larsson would also turn a bit quicker or in a smaller space compared to him even. This video is not bad for those who didn't see much of Larsson scoring goals maybe (I notice for Sweden and in the UEFA Cup he did score a fair number of penalty goals it is fair to say - but in the Scottish league he was way ahead of other goalscorers in the charts for year after year but Aubameyang wasn't playing for Rangers of course!):
Yes, I reminded myself of that and concentrated also on looking at the general play. I think obviously when he scores 4 in such a game then it is a great game for him, but particularly his 3rd goal with the drag back is exceptional and I do remember liking and being impressed with that one (maybe the idea and presence of mind is the most impressive thing there but of course his feel for the ball needs to be good enough to pull it off too). It is the sort of performance I do associate with him on a good day indeed, and especially by the end with full confidence I think his movements and touches were generally positive and helping his team. At times maybe his touch seems more average and maybe never sublime (the drag back goal in it's entirety perhaps merits that descripton though arguably) but he is always open to trying things with the ball and it pays off for him definitely. In some ways maybe this is similar - although his best goal where he runs through with the ball and slots it home is not quite the same as his best vs Real of course: I'm not quite sure if this is all his touches vs Atletico (I know why people do it but the replays etc start to annoy me when just trying to watch the performance I suppose, but with all the filling then 5 minutes doesn't seem a lot). But if so (and I assume a load of good stuff shouldn't be missing anyway) then yes he found it much more difficult to get involved than vs PSV. In some ways maybe it does typify a less impressive display by him but with not very many chances to get on the ball at all it wouldn't be easy to judge perhaps. If he scores from those two headed chances then suddenly it would be a different display by him anyway I guess:
Yes thanks for your good ideas. I saw that recently Capello, Baresi and Ambrosini also made the comparison. One thing that helps R9 and MvB their legacy a lot is that they're often credited (by knowledgeable people) for redefining the striker role. Well... maybe others thought it out for them to be fair. It's always hard to predict who and how history will be written. In terms of the most significant differences - and this has also something to do with the average playing position and the extent the team plays on the opposition half - I think MvB assisted a bit more at times. Think of the decisive assists in the 1989-90 campaign against a very strong Madrid team, the winning assist in the final or the nice left footed assist (that you recently highlighted to me) against PSV near the end of his career (sadly). If I look at Lewandowski his stats - and he had a lot more through balls at Dortmund - I think there is maybe a difference here but as said that is also due to average positioning and how a team positioning relates to the striker (hence more of them at Dortmund?). One link (when I googled back for Baresi's view) that is worth sharing is the view of another early 00s old style poacher. It has a connection to the recent Ibra thread too as Crespo seems to hint that Ibra is as an individual player next in line after Cristiano, or next to him ('talent' wise at least). http://gianlucadimarzio.com/en/cres...ewandowski-van-basten-is-the-best-of-all-time http://www.calciomercato.com/news/crespo-marco-van-basten-il-9-piu-forte-di-sempre-179294 (use translate for help if necessary)
Well, Aguero has always been rated very highly among EPL fans. IIRC his goal to game ratio is one of the best ever. If nothing else, he's the most expensive fantasy player. He's always been too injury prone though.
I guess Aguero will be better remembered than his countryman. Although maybe not as technically refined and technically balanced as Lewandowski and Ibrahimovic, Aguero can make goals by himself either by a dribble or combining with team mates. The true reasons can be misty and opaque, but it is said that Real Madrid let Higuain go because he's too much a striker of the old days. Napoli and Juventus are still excellent teams but - with all respect - a class below the superelite like Real Madrid. Juventus is perhaps comparable to Manchester City in terms of level (not wages and financially). It is not said that Serie A is easier to score (there are quite a few who think CR7 will not score more than 30 in Serie A, which is still be exceptional of course despite the higher goals per game as in the glory days of the league) but the Premier League is the more popular league around the world. Internationally Aguero his goal record is more impressive too. Both in terms of ratio and the level of teams he scored against. Same holds for the national team imho. See here: http://www.weltfussball.com/spieler_profil/gonzalo-higuain/ In return one can say that Higuain had for four prime years CR7 and Benzema alongside him while Aguero was generally the main scorer (though early on he played with Forlan). Higuain didn't score European goals until the 2009-10 season while Aguero had already bagged 10-12 goals in the european cups. Conversely, excluding penalties Aguero never scored more than 19 league goals in a season for Manchester City (a relatively free scoring team; one of the very few in history who've scored more than 100 team goals in a season). Overall I guess Aguero will be remembered better than Higuain.
Based on peak level(2000- ) 1.)Thierry Henry 2.)Ronaldo el fenomeno 3.)Luis suarez 4.)zlatan ibrahimovic 5.)Samuel eto'o 6.)Andriy Shevchenko 7.) Rademal Falcao 8.) Wayne Rooney 9.) Didier Drogba 10.)Diego milito All of the above were big game players(exc Henry )which for me is very important when considering players with the highest peak Drogba gets in for being a cup final specialist(in England),two 30+ goal seasons for a defensive Chelsea side and last but by no means least his heroics in 2012 against bayern Munich Rooney gets in for being one of the most talented youth players in the world 2004-2006 then being part of the most feared partnership in Europe 2007-2009 winning 3 consecutive leagues/champions league then in 09-11 he was one of the top 3 strikers in the world,scored in the CL final against arguably the greatest club team of all time at the peak of their powers(he was also voted 4th place ballon dor in 2011)) Henry although not really a "big game player"(referring to cup finals only)was the most talented,consistent and just all round devastating striker of this century/millennium so far His all round game puts every other elite striker of the last 16 years to shame and frankly even going back further to the 90s strikers like peak R9 96-98,Romario,papin,Vieri etc simply couldn't create to the same extent as Henry did in his arsenal prime And obviously when I say he wasn't "a big game player" I'm only referring here to cup finals that's not to say he didn't repeatedly destroy big teams at league/CL level for example Manchester United scoring around 9 goals against them in 8 seasons and also intermilan and real Madrid in the CL Eto'o is probably the most accomplished African player in history with big game moments, being one of the best players in 2 treble winning sides but for me in terms of natural talent I would still definitely place him behind weah(maybe even behind abedi Pele) but ahead of Drogba I can't be bothered to explain my reasons for my other inclusions(and anyways I have made my feelings on zlatan pretty clear in the "Ibrahimovic thread" and my inclusion of R9 is obviously a given) I would say on his day post peak R9 was the closest striker I have seen to come close to Henry and in fact there are a few performances he had in real Madrid that even Henry himself couldn't match Now To conclude my top 10 21st century strikers based on consistency would be 1.)Thierry Henry 2.)zlatan ibrahimovic 3.)Wayne Rooney(from 2004-2011 I would say he was always a top 20-25 player in the world which is amazing) 4.)Luis suarez(his peak maybe higher than Rooney/ibrahimovic but going back not that long ago let's say 2010/11 he was on nobody's radar as being the best or even one of the best strikers in the world) 5.)Van nistelrooy owned eredivisie,the premier league and won the pichichi in his first season in Spain.He remains the best "hitman" of this century comparing him to a player like inzaghi would be blasphemy(RVN was miles better) 6.)eto'o 7.)Shevchenko 8.)Drogba 9.)Sergio aguero 10.)either higuain or David villa
Don't know where to put it but today this column appeared in one of the major papers. Difficult to accurately translate the tone but after reading I felt a tiny bit emotional indeed (like the writer). 'Google translate' did a pretty good job; it only took a few minutes to alter this. http://www.ad.nl/sport/van-basten-in-b-fifa-pak-b-is-te-veel-voor-me~a26a3d67/ http://www.ad.nl/sport/ik-probeer-er-iets-leuks-van-te-maken-in-deze-functie~aaf7f285/ (ok, I didn't cry or have tears but for five seconds I could get what he feels)
I can see your ranking inclination is based on "flair" and "style" of players games rather than "achievements" and "importance" Raul winning La Liga 7 times and UCL 3 times as one of the most important players does not get a mentioning here? Pushing a post 2000- R9 that high is clearly based on personal preference rather then "solid" achievement with clubs. If i where to add Raul to your list above and reshuffle the ranks to make "achievements" the measuring stick Raul will outrank Ronaldo Fenomeno and most of the names you listed there. Here is my own view of the matter keeping more or less the same names you mentioned but with Raul as an addition and some minor twists in the order. Bare in mind this is based on some players being a "factor" at winning league, continental titles for the clubs they played in (and ignoring individual qualities). Unfortunately, post 2000- R9 had only season 2003 as major factor to win La Liga title (his only league title in his entire career). Whilst Drogba was more "key" player for Chelsea's EPL, FA and UCL titles than R9 ever was for any club he played in any league in his entire career. the only category in which Ronaldo Fenomeno makes it to the top of a striker 2000's- ranking list is when the WC02 is included. Out of the lot only Henry comes second to R9 with NT performances. However, if Club performances (excluding WC, Euro + Copa) is explicitly discussed than a list based on contributions for club titles will be more like this : 1.) Thierry Henry 2.) Samuel eto'o 3.) Raul 4.) Luis suarez 5.) zlatan ibrahimovic 6.) Didier Drogba 7.) Ronaldo el fenomeno 8.) Andriy Shevchenko 9.) Rademal Falcao 10.) Wayne Rooney But a ranking list including National Team performances post 2000- then R9>Henry>>>.>the rest.
To explain further (maybe I should have done before) I think when he was scoring the most goals he had become both a false 9 (ish - not like Cruyff or Laudrup had played the role in the mid 70's or early 90's) and the main striker rolled into one. Using my wide definition I'd classify him at that time as qualifying to be a striker (perhaps) in position and role combined. Previously he'd played as wing forward and maybe more of an outright false 9 as he started to play that role too (including at times in 08/09 when he switched with Eto'o). Afterwards he's played as wing forward come number 10 I suppose. By support striker I mostly meant players who played alongside a main striker (typically in a 4-4-2 but not necessarily) or literally in support of the main striker but without clearly being a midfielder (Bergkamp in the 90's at Arsenal for example).
I'd say Baggio fits most accurately as a second striker like Bergkamp probably, although at times he played almost like a true AM I think didn't he (arguably Bergkamp did too in his latter years I guess). Baggio was called a 9 and a half (by Platini I think) so maybe he had some aspects that a false 9 would have, but I don't think he was normally the most prominent player up front on his own in the nominal formation. Whether it can be argued that a support striker is just a false 9 with a partner in some cases I dunno (then maybe Baggio fits, as might Nigel Clough, Kenny Dalglish, Peter Beardsley, Dimitar Berbatov, Teddy Sheringham etc but I'd say they were all support strikers mainly and/or in their prime and distinguish that from the false 9 role). Totti when he won the Golden Boot maybe for false 9 (but again, though with a completely different style and attributes overall, maybe more like Messi in being the focus for goals and wandering around less, moving to the wings less, dropping deep less than Cruyff or Laudrup in Netherlands 1974 for example or Barcelona early 90's on the occasions when Laudrup did take the false 9 position - not to diminish Messi's scoring or indeed Totti's too much though). Perhaps Rooney when he has played in the central striker position was false 9 ish in some ways, but maybe less so than Messi even when Messi was scoring the most goals I'd think. Because Rooney played that role a bit different to how he plays as a support forward, and stayed more up front waiting to be served chances.
Sorry to return to this; The same creator has uploaded past three weeks these two videos, which are perhaps even better examples (without annoying music)
If you ask me not in the sense that Baggio played behind a center forward (on rare occasions he didn't) but otherwise it is a good comparison in terms of style and role (for clarity I limit it here to the 1.5 years where Baggio was in his absolute prime and lighting up big games). Baggio himself has said that he recognizes something of Messi in how he played the game. Baggio was for obvious reasons a fair bit more physically impaired, but otherwise there are many overlaps in technical qualities and their physical attributes. Including the reliance on short bursts, short explosions of brilliance. Laudrup was in Baggio his era better capable of lifting a mediocre team to adequate levels because of his better range and coverage (to put it very short and simplistic). There was a wider range where you got the best and the best effectiveness out of Laudrup. The (operating) range of Baggio was smaller, but within that most effective range you saw excellence. Also in the sense that Baggio was an excellent passer if needed, but that the emphasis was for himself and the team - how the team moved around Baggio - still on scoring. Ravanelli and Vialli were good partners for him during his best years (where Juventus scored 58 and 59 team goals a season). I'm not saying Baggio was of Messi his level and dominance (that ship sailed as soon as his physicality deserted him, including knees and ankles) but stylistically and the short bursts then yes. Another downside of Baggio were his frequent rows and clashes with many managers and coaches, and he was very often subbed out because of his attributes (and the natural way Italian managers reacted/react to pressure and strains on the defense).
Yes, certainly they are additional examples to show the clean and precise first touch with various balls coming towards him and the capability to immediately control the ball and be doing something useful with it even without time and space. Especially the second one maybe - later in his career after having more injury troubles but he's moving well and in good shape there definitely. Maybe vs Red Star he's actually using the ball a bit better in terms of end product after controlling it, in comparison to the other performance vs them, rather than showing better control - maybe more things come off accurately in the end, wheras some nice attempts in the other game didn't quite. But he got one assist as opposed to one goal in terms of the end product that mattered so similar/identical in that respect.
I realise now actually, though it's clear enough when I read greatstriker's question again, that indeed he was asking about whether Baggio compared more accurately to Messi, and not to Cruyff/Laudrup (I think!). I was initially reading it the other way I think.
Yes, that was more like it. In comparison to the "others" mentioned one player comes close in terms of his position and style. And position and style endows "operating range" like @PuckVanHeel observed in his recent post. Of course, no player is equal nor the same. Players are more like "fingerprints" in that they are unique in individuality and how they operate within the team. Yet, it seems to me Baggio does share a common denominator with Messi in most aspects of individuality and how he operates within the team. Now, whether the term "false 9" can label both these two is open for debate. But first, we need to agree on the "definition" of the term first. What is meant by "false 9" to begin with. Since this term seems to be used interchangeably and randomly by many posters here and pundits there in different contexts.