who would you name? would you base it simply on stats or the diversity in the goals they've scored or the performances they had to win titles?
Hard to say and some players who are arguably forwards more than outright strikers but (not in any order): Shevchenko Van Nistelrooy Henry Villa Eto'o Ibrahimovic Rooney Drogba Van Persie Aguero
In no particular order: Messi Suarez Ibrahimovic Van Persie Shevchenko Ronaldo Henry Drogba Eto'o Raùl I think all of these guys made a fantastic contribution to the 21st century. Overall I tried to tend towards longevity and consistency, but I did make an exception for "il fenomeno" Ronaldo.
Taking a wide definition (but not including those whose best role was always more as second striker) and based more on peak if not completely, and being generous anyway to those who are borderline 90's/00's players and who may have had their peak form or some of it in the 90's and certainly don't have great longevity at peak form in the 00's (but still not having R9 as high as he'd be for the 90's). By grouping and using alphabetical order: Messi Henry C.Ronaldo Raul Ronaldo Shevchenko Eto'o Larsson Owen Van Nistelrooy I think if either Messi and CR7, or Owen and Larsson (depending on reasoning) were removed then it probably would be Ibrahimovic and Suarez who'd come in now though.
Those are definitely players that the bookmakers of http://topratedbettingsites.co.uk/ always put into consideration when making the odds for an upcoming event.
Yeah, arguably so. I was going wide enough to include cases like that I suppose lol, but not wider! Maybe the way he played it could be argued he was one of two strikers/forwards at times, and not acting as a sort of trequarista as such but I know he even played from behind two strikers (Mijatovic and Suker for example) in some games though that'd be more relevant to the 90's. Alongside Morientes, or even Ronaldo, then if one of them is designated second striker then it's him I guess.
Thanks. Yes I see where you're coming from if you talk about 2000-01 and then alongside Ronaldo. There's a nuance with Italian like support strikers as Del Piero, Baggio or Zola or even the ones who have as many assists/pre-assists than goals (or more assists than goals) like Sheringham and such. There's one season where he had more than 10 assists but that was as 'trequartista' behind Suker and Mijatovic like you say (13-14 league assists). The 2nd best season in that regard was the first season with Ronaldo next to him (2002-03; most arguably Ronaldo's best season in Madrid). Also later at Schalke he had way more goals than assists.
The poachers ("fox in the box") of the early 00s have died out a bit though. (although RvN had a good assist rate at UCL level as opposed to PL level; maybe/possibly aided by playing deeper and in a modified formation for european matches) Vieri from around that time is a good example as well.
I totally forgot about Owen. But Larsson? Really great for Sweden and Celtic but could he really compare with world class strikers?
Owen should not be on the shortlist. No way. He had neither the longevity nor the peak that others here can boast.
Hmm, I think he was world class (with more 'ability' than a Lewandowski or a Trezeguet overall, and even a prime Torres or Villa arguably). It's just he spent his prime in Scotland so I can't prove he would have excelled as much in a higher profile league (but despite his CL Final assists, he was past his best by the time he went to Barcelona I'm sure). It's all about opinions though, and I've always been one to try to estimate outright ability (and of course effectiveness and that's where for players like him the 'unproven' label comes into play I think to an extent - in other words I could be wrong). I know others like to deal with the proven moreso, and I understand that and anyway people might perceive he actually had less ability than these other players I mention and I can't say that's wrong. When I realised I probably had him in, I did think twice though lol, so added the disclaimer about him and Owen and Ibrahimovic and Suarez as a get-out clause maybe lol!
I felt on peak he was ok in there but fair enough - you haven't crucified my post so I'll not get upset lol (I know we respect each others views anyway and I also know you're a big fan of Suarez so might be irritated if anyone classifies him as striker but has him borderline rather than clearly inside). If I move much away from peak and don't allow him his 90's form too, then yes I'd drop him out too though which is why I added the disclaimer too. He wasn't bad though (maybe with his poor longevity, mainly due to injury robbing him of mobility/pace/agility, and his 'undeserved' Ballon d'Or people are quick to actually under-rate him a bit now particularly as at club level it is now easier for strikers at top clubs to rack up a lot of goals and his peak tallies even seem small in comparison even if the overall GPG from his era to this didn't change a huge amount). On his RM form (although he did ok ish at times) for example he'd be nowhere in a discussion like this, but in 1998 (or more relevantly 2001) at his best for Liverpool and England I think he's not such a bizarre choice and I think we should be free to add names without fear of reactions from others lol (but again your reaction was polite and I don't mind it at all, even though it is also decisive against my choice): He wasn't too bad at racking up assists either to be fair (although I don't even associate him with being a great provider or an unselfish player with great vision ofc) http://lfcstats.co.uk/premmostassists.html
It is also an interesting question to think about what is easier out of scoring lots of goals for Bayern Munich today or Celtic in Larsson's time I think (re: Lewandowski). At International level Larsson's peak doesn't seem inferior. And he was a more mobile, skilful player too with more pace so for me Lewandowski has to be a better scorer to compete, or he has to show he can take over games at the highest level maybe (CL latter stages, WC/Euros). All about opinions and personal perceptions though like I said.
I've said this before and people reacted badly to it but Lewandowski is the Van Basten of this era. Not at that level, but in his style of play. He's complete, links up play brilliantly and could quite easily play in other roles if needed. He's the fastest foreigner to 100 goals in the Bundesliga and has an excellent record in the Champions League. By the end of his career I think he will be rated extremely highly.
As a Bayern fan, I couldn't agree more with you on this. Even though every Bayern fan and club official knows that recently he is facing a scoring drought, there is something really unique about his ability and intelligence which I rarely find in current era strikers that weighs much more than just scoring goals. His role in holding the possession and linkup play upfront are so crucial for us that even made us even forget about his recent scoring drought. I mean he is not a "Suarez type" player who scores goals in a variety of different ways and who the opponent can sense his direct attacking threat from minute to minute, but his presence in such a unique way serves no less importance to the team.
Yes, if I was considering Vieri it'd have had to be for 90's rather than 00's I think but I know what you mean about classifying him that way too. Interesting that originally the new offside laws were thought to benefit players like RvN (he'd been doing well without them too though) but yeah his type is not so common now (Klose is err close? but not really of this era anyway). He too was not as rounded in skills or anywhere near as quick as Larsson so I didn't mean to pick out those things as deciding factors, but in my perception maybe Van Nistelrooy did have the advantages in goal sense and suchlike that I'm not sure Lewandowski does to the same extent (using him as an example as someone who's not going to be too far away from such a top 10 though and in it in some opinions - not to disparage him).
Hmm, you could be right and I could be wrong comme for sure. I just feel Van Basten's technique was a lot superior (more his touch on the ball, the way he took the ball in wheras Lewandowski seems maybe more Bale-like in that category - sufficient but not exceptional if you know what I mean although maybe too much focus can be put on 'skill' and maybe I can be guilty of that although yeah in the case of Van Nistelrooy, who maybe I'd see more as comparable to Lewandowski indeed overall as well as for 'skill' I didn't exclude him from my selection of course so I don't define everything in that way but I just think if the technique/touch is of that exceptionally high level it opens so much up for a player, if he'd not fouled, and it means he can excel at any level of football and not only when his team is with the advantage and creating him lots of chances - I don't say Lewandowski can't play better than he did in the Euros in a different tournament as that concept is obvious and all sorts of players play below par in tournaments, but I do say it doesn't seem obvious he could light one up like Van Basten did in a decisive way). I definitely think you know more than me overall though comme, and particularly about modern football (and the complete opposite - ancient football!) so I don't want to be trying to seem like I have the superior insight or opinion here, but just help people understand where I'm coming from and I think the longer a player takes to control the ball the easier he is to defend. The stats will back Lewandowski when it comes to goals, and that has to be in part because he does excel in a way that 'normal' players don't, but I just don't know whether back in the Eredivisie or Serie A or Euro 88 he could seem very Van Basten' like in the 80's into the 90's. I know you said before you don't actually see him as being exactly like Van Basten though - you clarified in another thread to me once before when maybe I was under-rating the Pole lol! Maybe as with Vidal I just haven't watched Lewa's best games in full and get my opinion conditioned by averge and below par displays, like can happen for anyone with any player they don't see that regularly I suppose.
You even say not at MvB's level in your post lol now I read again - sorry. But yeah I guess it doesn't have to be I think he's nowhere near a top 10 to put him outside it if you know what I mean. I didn't put Crespo in it, didn't put Klose in it etc etc and I also think they qualify as generally world class and so can Lewandowski. Maybe sometimes I expected more from him, or maybe now I expect less than he can deliver even. I did see games for Dortmund where he did well and scored impressive goals and he was clearly a big part of that team, and a crucial one re: their success so I know he hasn't just landed it lucky by signing for Bayern (just as Owen's name wasn't just plucked out of a hat for the 2001 Ballon d'Or though even if he wasn't a unanimous or widely agreed choice and I don't think he'd have been mine either even though things came right for him in some big games and made his name that year which I guess influenced the voters).
Amen. I think it's between him and Suarez for the title of best no.9 of the 2010s. Because I come from a more English perspective, I've viewed him as a really good Teddy Sheringham.
Anyway, yeah I guess what comme means is he sees Lewandowski as the standard-bearer for 'complete centre-forward' who also scores lots of goals at the moment, and I understand where that view comes from at least definitely. If I said "trust me Lars Bohinen was Nottingham Forest's Zidane" or "Stan Collymore was Nottingham Forest's prime R9" then ofc I wouldn't mean in exact terms either or that they could/did everything the legends did, but just that there might be some similarity albeit not the same level. Maybe this new upload can even help to explain what I mean re: Van Basten though and I do think his exceptional touch and associated fluidity when he was playing at his best was one aspect of his completeness (I think maybe solo goals from deep were a capability he had that Lewa doesn't so much too but that diminished after his Ajax years maybe): I know I have to come back to Carlito on another thread about things including Van Basten not being technically inferior to C.Ronaldo too so maybe this video can even be considered to make a start on that! The things that comme listed in terms of similarities though - yeah I don't dismiss those ideas for sure, so it's more the exceptional technical level of Van Basten (that can also aid team play and not only individual play of course) and things like that that maybe makes me see the comparison as a bit of a stretch overall (less so than when people compared Dzeko to Van Basten when he signed for Man City though, and again I guess there were aspects in Dzeko's game that might make that idea not completely weird in some ways - maybe the same could be said for Huntelaar in some aspects or indeed Trezeguet but overall and particularly technically in open play the differences are even more obvious too with such comparisons for me probably).
Hmm, give him Sheringham's technique/first touch and vision and then maybe I could get closer to agreeing with comme's comparison too lol!