So, I would like users in here to post, and possibly comment, their own Top 10 ranking of the best players who are considered "legends" but that most of us have not been able to witness during their times. It's necessary to define the era. To me the "modern era" of football begins in 1970 when the "Telstar" is used as the World Cup ball; the moment when the ball changed forever is for me the most effective unique borderline between the ancient and the modern. So here we are looking at players whose peak season was before 1970. Let's see what comes out of this...
Germany: Goalkeepers 1 Heiner Stuhlfauth 2 Toni Turek 3 Hans Tilkowski 4 Hans Jakob 5 Willibald Kress Right Backs 1 Paul Janes 2 Erich Retter 3 Georg Stollenwerk 4 Friedel Lutz 5 Hans Nowak Left Backs 1 Karl-Heinz Schnellinger 2 Erich Juskowiak 3 Jakob Streitle 4 Werner Kohlmeyer 5 Willi Billmann Stoppers 1 Ludwig Goldbrunner 2 Werner Liebrich 3 Reinhold Münzenberg 4 Heinz Wewers 5 Hans Hagen Centre-Halves 1 Josef Posipal 2 Herbert Erhardt 3 Otto Tibulski 4 Jakob Bender 5 Wilhelm Sold Central/Defensive Midfield 1 Andreas Kupfer 2 Hans Kalb 3 Horst Szymaniak 4 Max Breunig 5 Albin Kitzinger Offensive Midfield 1 Fritz Szepan 2 Helmut Haller 3 Ernst Kuzorra 4 Rudi Gellesch 5 Günter Herrmann Forwards 1 Fritz Walter 2 Richard Hofmann 3 Max Morlock 4 Otto Siffling 5 Eugen Kipp Right Midfield 1 Helmut Rahn 2 Ernst Lehner 3 Karl Wegele 4 Berni Klodt 5 Ernst Albrecht Left Midfield 1 Hans Schäfer 2 Adolf Urban 3 Stanislaus Kobierski 4 Ludwig Hofmann 5 Hans Sutor Strikers 1 Uwe Seeler 2 Tull Harder 3 Josef Pöttinger 4 Adolf Jäger 5 Ernst Willimowski
For England (based on Comme's ranking): Goalkeepers 1 Gordon Banks 2 Frank Swift 3 Sam Hardy 4 Harry Hibbs 5 Bert Williams Right Backs 1 Jimmy Armfield 2 Bob Crompton 3 Ray Goodall 4 Don Howe 5 Alf Ramsey Left Backs 1 Eddie Hapgood 2 Roger Byrne 3 Ray Wilson 4 Ernest Blenkinsopp 5 Jesse Pennington Stoppers 1 Wilf Copping 2 Jack Charlton 3 Maurice Norman 4 Peter Swan 5 Brian Labone Centre-Halves 1 Billy Wright 2 Bobby Moore 3 Neil Franklin 4 Stan Cullis 5 Charlie Roberts Central Midfielders 1 Ernest Needham 2 Jimmy Dickinson 3 Duncan Edwards 4 Colin Veitch 5 Ben Warren Attacking Midfielders 1 Bobby Charlton 2 Raich Carter 3 Johnny Haynes 4 Clem Stephenson 5 Ron Flowers Forwards 1 Billy Walker 2 John Goodall 3 Wilf Mannion 4 Len Shackleton 5 Dennis Wilshaw Right Midfield 1 Stanley Matthews 2 Sammy Crooks 3 Billy Bassett 4 Joe Hulme 5 Charlie Athersmith Left Midfield 1 Tom Finney 2 Cliff Bastin 3 Eric Brook 4 Fred Spiksley 5 Jimmy Mullen Strikers 1 Jimmy Greaves 2 Dixie Dean 3 Steve Bloomer 4 Tommy Lawton 5 Charlie Buchan
I actually don't agree with the way you separated modern era from the rest. I always thought the modern era began in 90s when they forbid goalkeepers taking ball into their hands after a pass from their teammates (back pass rule. 1992). That completely changed the way football is played so for me that's separation between modern era and the rest. Also i like to seperate football in pre and post Cruyff's time since he was so revolutional both as player and as a coach. So that's around 1974 and the total football by Netherlands.
I'll go with this as my estimate: 1 - Pele 2 - Alfredo Di Stefano 3 - George Best 4 - Ferenc Puskas 5 - Eusebio 6 - Bobby Charlton 7 - Bobby Moore 8 - Lev Yashin 9 - Garrincha 10 - Gianni Rivera Excluded by 'peak season before 1970' criteria when perhaps they have a pre-1970 peak to be in contention examples - Johan Cruyff, Franz Beckenbauer Excluded, but disadvantaged by lack of footage examples (there will be more - the first couple here I tend to feel able to consider a bit more and maybe are among the best pre-1960 players; the latter two are prominent names of legends with very little footage) - Giussepe Meazza, Juan Schiaffino, Jose Manuel Moreno, Matthias Sindelar I think especially for 'peak season' I don't doubt Pele belongs. Whether there is some question about Best I don't know (doubtful, but anyway he is generally a 60s and just after player, not 70s onwards - his high placing is based on leaning mostly if not completely towards peak in the ranking anyway too).
Certainly everyone will have their own way to separate eras. However, I wouldn't want this to be an issue in this thread. Maybe I should have titled it "Top players before 1970" and avoid the definition issue. But ok, I see your point.
Reasonable list indeed, even though leaving out Schiaffino (a common practice, it seems, honestly) seems strange to me. All in all I would tend, to my knowledge, to something like this: 1. Pelè 2. Di Stefano 3. Puskas 4. Garrincha 6. Eusebio 7. Schiaffino 8. Meazza 9. Charlton 10. Best
Based on the period between 1920 and 1969: 01. Pelé (BRA) 02. Alfredo Di Stéfano (ARG) 03. Ferenc Puskás (HUN) 04. José Manuel Moreno (ARG) 05. Eusébio (POR) 06. Garrincha (BRA) 07. Giuseppe Meazza (ITA) 08. Matthias Sindelar (AUT) 09. Zizinho (BRA) 10. Bobby Charlton (ENG)
You are kinda missing 5th player. And i can't believe you guys are not actually putting Best in top 5. To me that's more than obvious choice.
It depends on your criteria. Until 1969 Best was only 23 and had only about 5 and a half seasons as a professional player. Even though his peak performance was very high and developed in this stage, his career could be too short to this point. I'd say that he wouldn't have a clear chance in the global against superstars of their own times as Moreno or Meazza (even Charlton among British).
How about an All-Time XI? And what formation might be most suitable at that point? 4-2-4: Lev Yashin; Carlos Alberto, Gyorgy Sarosi, Booby Moore, Nilton Santos; Jozsef Bozsik, Bobby Charlton; Garrincha, Alfredo Di Stefano, Pele, George Best 2nd team: Gordon Banks; Djalma Santos, Jose Nasazzi, John Charles, Giacinto Facchetti; Zito, Didi; Stanley Matthews, Eusebio, Ferenc Puskas, Tom Finney WM variant: Lev Yashin; Djalma Santos, Jose Nasazzi, Nilton Santos; Jozsef Bozsik, Duncan Edwards; Garrincha, Eusebio, Alfredo Di Stefano, Pele, George Best 2nd team: Gordon Banks; Carlos Alberto, Armando Picchi, Branko Zebec; Valentino Mazzola, Bobby Moore; Stanley Matthews, Giussepe Meazza, Nandor Hidegkuti, Ferenc Puskas, Tom Finney Something like that maybe?
Interesting to see how the PES stats guys compare Moreno and Best, to whatever extent that could be an indicator (looking at historical selections of best players ever I'm sure it'd be the case where old-time South Americans, particularly Argentines, might include Moreno, and around the time of the cut-off for this thread many but especially British selectors could include Best): * I didn't study the conversations before posting to see how informed they might be (on Meazza's page I do remember an old-time Italian had posted some interesting and useful things though, even including a bit of rare footage to go with comments and descriptions from even older Italians IIRC) * I'm also using the Miti del Calcio site, as I didn't find a set for Moreno on pesstasdatabase - they often seem to be quite similar anyway and obviously work to the same standards http://www.pesmitidelcalcio.com/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=341 http://www.pesmitidelcalcio.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=483 Balance (Moreno - for the purposes of the game this relates a lot to body strength I should clarify; obviously when not drunk Best's natural balance was great!) Stamina (equal) Top speed (Best - I had the feeling Moreno was also pretty fast myself though) Acceleration (Best) Response (Moreno) Agility (Best) Dribble accuracy (Best) Dribble speed (Best) Short pass accuracy (Moreno) Short pass speed (Moreno - perhaps this attribute is more stylistic based than determining who was better?) Long pass accuracy & speed (equal) Shot accuracy (Moreno) Shot power (Moreno) Shot technique (Best) Free kick accuracy (Best) Curling (Best) Header (Moreno) Jump (Moreno) Technique (Best) Aggression *means how attacking the player plays I think (Best) Mentality (Moreno) Teamwork (Moreno)
I notice now this video which might be the best available for Moreno (not sure whether it includes everything I ever saw of him though, and it might also be the case of needing to work out if possible which clips are showing other players rather than him): These are Sarosi's two sets of PES stats, from each site: http://pesstatsdatabase.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=37108 http://www.pesmitidelcalcio.com/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=1528
It would be nice to use a 2-3-5 here, wouldn't it? But I guess it's best to reserve that for a pre-WWII thread. I'd have a 442 (which can be definitely considered a 424 as well): Jashin* D.Santos, Nasazzi, Moore, N.Santos; Garrincha, Pelè, Schiaffino, Best; Di Stéfano, Puskas * Sorry, I know it's unpopular, but I totally dislike the anglosaxon transliteration system, and while I cannot easily use the proper scientific one (which requires characters that I don't have in my regular keyboard layout - in this case š), I still prefer to use an adapted scientific transliteration rather than the ugly anglosaxon one. PS I always frown at John Charles as a centre-back. I know he did play there for long but it seems to me that his mark in football history comes from his striker spells. I may be wrong though.
I suppose the interesting thing is that the point chosen is roughly half-way between when competitive worldwide international tournaments began in some form (Olympics followed by World Cups) and today. Maybe an all-time XI since that point seems somewhat comparable (leaving aside arguments about whether the old players wouldn't adapt so well in the modern game etc). Having Cruyff and Beckenbauer in such a team based on peak maybe gives it the edge anyway though.... 4-3-3 with libero: Peter Schmeichel; Cafu, Franco Baresi, Franz Beckenbauer, Paolo Maldini; Michel Platini, Johan Neeskens, Johan Cruyff; Lionel Messi, Marco van Basten, Diego Maradona second XI: Gianluigi Buffon; Jorginho, Gaetano Scirea, Elias Figueroa, Ruud Krol; Paulo Roberto Falcao, Lothar Matthaus, Zinedine Zidane; Karl-Heinz Rummenigge, Ronaldo, Cristiano Ronaldo Standard 4-2-3-1: Peter Schmeichel; Cafu, Franco Baresi, Elias Figueroa, Paolo Maldini; Franz Beckenbauer, Frank Rijkaard; Lionel Messi, Zico, Johan Cruyff; Marco van Basten second XI: Gianluigi Buffon; Lilian Thuram, Gaetano Scirea, Alessandro Nesta, Ruud Krol; Johan Neeskens, Patrick Vieira; Luis Figo, Michael Laudrup, Diego Maradona; Ronaldo I guess those might be the best formations to represent the 'modern' game overall anyway.
Which I think is a determining factor in the comparison is the theme of the regularity of their best level. In that sense I think Moreno has a clear advantage being considered one of the best South American players since about 1936, at his 19/20 years, going through his most memorable period with "La Máquina" during the first half of the 1940's and after a short and successful, but uncertain passage through Mexico, he returned to Argentina and was once again considered one of the best players in the continent (if not the best) for the second half of the 1940's. After that he had a decent career decline (after his 33 years) as a main star in Chile and a good player for Boca Juniors (I'm not sure about his end of career in Colombia). Of course, Best had an early explosion from the 1964-65 season (at his 18/19 years), but after reaching an earlier peak of performance in the 1967-68 season (at his 21/22 years) also began a very earlier decline in the early 1970's between the irregular level of Manchester United and his disciplinary problems. It's hard to talk about skills because it's not possible to watch much about Moreno (or almost nothing), but it seems that in general terms there were no big differences in how spectacular they were offensively in the conditions of their ages, but in the ability of the Argentine to adapt to roles with certain defensive tasks.
In a somewhat modern adaptation: Yashin Nasazzi ------ Moore D. Santos ---------------------------------------- N. Santos -- Bozsik ------ Edwards Di Stéfano Garrincha --------------- Pelé ----------------------------- --------------------------------- Puskás
Yes, I understand the points you make for sure. To some extent it's also hard to talk about longevity/consistency 100% conclusively I think, relying more on the career description than we'd have to for say Messi vs Rivaldo (I'm not saying those two are close on 'skills' or peak performance but just as an example of a long peak in general vs a short one it's maybe apt), but certainly Best's decline is well documented despite that at certain points in those early 70s (1971 primarily probably) he was playing like one of the best players in the world still. Sometimes people say to me Best was the best player they saw live and cite a game at Tottenham or Chelsea in the early 70s, or something like that. Of course, it makes a difference if we tend more to a 'best' (no pun intended) or 'greatest' (over career) top 10. It's difficult for me when it is indeed hard to talk about skills (and peak effectiveness) because hypothetically if the conclusion would be that actually Best was quite a lot better in peak time, then I'd be choosing him ahead as the 'better' player regardless of longevity I suppose. It's also hard when Moreno didn't play European teams I suppose, or in World Cups, but it should be said as Vegan has stated that certainly some Argentine pundits did compare him in 'skills' to Pele (not necessarily favourably/equally but as if a comparison was worthwhile at least) and some Argentine old-timers (maybe not all River Plate fans!) said that Moreno was better than Maradona at least towards the start of Maradona's career. There have also been some comparisons to Cruyff, so it's not impossible I would think Moreno was just as talented as Best....but I can't just assume so if you know what I mean?
One additional point I might make is that despite what PES stats site may suggest, Best was actually quite adaptable himself including as RoyoftheRovers described playing in a midfield 3, as somewhat a box to box player (also wing forward in a 4-3-3, winger in a 4-2-4, supporting inside forward, support striker). I don't think he was really great or reliable on the defensive side, but could be good at tracking back with his speed and 'engine' and also certainly at tackling whether playing as winger or more in the centre of the midfield. I know RoyoftheRovers did also feel his short peak was a bit exaggerated (although maybe that his peak level could also be over-blown perhaps from what I recall).
Another nice exercise! For me personally, modern era players are those on film. So for this one ill try to make a top ten of the players "in the dark". 1. Meazza 2. Scarone 3. Fritz Walter 4. Sindelar 5. Moreno 6. Sarosi 7. Zizinho 8. Pedernera 9. Valentino Mazzola 10. Sastre
Until 1970: 1- Pele 2- Di Stéfano 3- Puskas 4- Eusebio 5-10 Yashin-Meazza-Moreno-Zizinho-Garrincha-Charlton From the 10th there could be a group made up of Didí-Kopa-Sindelar-Sarosi-Rivera-Moore-Zamora-Matthews-Kocsis-Facchetti-Seeler-Bozsik-Suárez-Gento-Schiaffino-Nordahl-JL Andrade-Nasazzi-Scarore-Varela-Bican-Erico-Pedernera-Nilton Santos-Djama Santos and others. Since Beckenbauer and Cruyff were in the middle of their careers and the best of them was seen in the 70s I have not included them in the list.
I agree that between 1960s-1970s, the game started to being something different to what it was before. My take on is the introduction of Science into the game, I mean a far more professional training method, nutrition and professional behaviour from players, also better equipment, pitches and control of fouls. All these things, expressed in better fitness and physical performance of the players and the whole team, for a modern era. So, no more, careless but super skilled players were able to being strong factors to decide titles, marking the end of a romantic era or "when men were real men".