This is where you are using double standards. You always made excuses for Riquelme's inability to adapt to his role in Barcelona, how he played on the wings etc, but your bias against Messi shows how you criticize him for the same downfall.
Double standard? Last I checked nobody including myself has ever claimed that Riquelme was on the same level as Messi have they? Where have you ever read any poster elevating Riquelme as an all-time great, near all-time great, best of his generation..........Why are we now lowering expectation to suit his results? I'm not the one that hyped him up to no end, in fact I was the one telling folks to slow down a bit so that we don't have to deal with the disappointment of yet another "next Diego" and the crap that comes with that. At least I now know you rate Riquelme much much higher than you do from the dozen or so games you may have seen. Getting back to the bias, you have no room to talk. Like I said in that other thread; anyone with over 30 pages of recent searched posts in which 85+% of said posts were Messi, Barca, Iniesta/Xavi related has no room to talk about bias. I'm also still waiting on you to produce one of those "many" posts in which you criticize a Messi performance. Pot, kettle, black my friend.
Congratulation. What a great perfomance against a Nigeria B-team which just had a 17 hour flight the day before the game and which had players which looked like they were falling asleep on the field. Messi truely is remarkable. This meaningless friendly half-way around the world really has changed my perception of how Messi plays for the national team... C'mon... lets be serious... You seem to forget that Serbia beat Germany (ok, very much against the run of play, but still ) and they narrowly beat Ghana in an evenly matched game which saw Ghana not get a penalty for handball on the line. Even when 1:0 down Ghana still looked decent enough to score. So it's not like Germany was untouchable... Especially with a team of Argentina's calibre.
funny everytime argentina beats a team it automatically becomes a B-team and a laundry list of excuses is instantly made for them Did they forget to take in their vitamins in the morning too ?? It is a friendly but it is a good reflection of Messi's level of play with the NT. He does almost everything except score but that will come when the team gets more organized in midfield nd allow him to push up the field.
Apparently, you did not comprehend the post. Your double standard is from defending Riquelme's failure in Barca while criticizing another player with the same situation- playing in a different role. Whether you claim Riquelme is an all time great has nothing to do with the double standard I pointed out. And yes you were telling folks to slow down on Messi's evaluation so much so that people were questioning your ability to objectively rate players, as Messi was obviously becoming the best player in the world, something that took you an extended period of time to realize and acknowledge. As for Messi/Xavi/Iniesta, when they have underperformed, I am among the first to point it out, something you are unable to do with Riquelme. The fact is those players are the best in their positions and have recently rarely done poorly but when they do, I make note of it. Since you already know 85% of my post history, you will see i criticized Messi's first two copa america matches, his shortcomings in being an effective captain, his inferiority to Maradona, his first match against arsenal, his previous overdribbling, and so on. The difference is when I criticize players it is purely for footballing reasons, but your assessments are motivated by an underlying bias that stems from thinking the player is not Argentinian enough and this influences every game evaluation you make on the player. To each his own, but no need to mask an agenda and play it off as an objective assessment.
Yeah right. No Enyeama, Yobo (team captain), Odemwingie, Taiwo, Kalu Uche (that's 5 out of 6 best players for Nigeria), while Chinedu Obasi, Ike Uche and Ahmed Musa came from the bench. What else do you call that if not a B-team? And excuses are excuses, but Nigeria's are great: played a full match 48 hours earlier, had a 17 hour flight in between, had one day to acclimatize to not only a different climate and time zone, but also around 1500 m difference in height above the ground. The defenders were sluggish and sleepy... Yeah. Its a good reflection of how Messi plays in friendlies If the opposing side was more organized in midfield (meaning not falling asleep on its feet) Messi's Argentina would struggle to even get into the opponents penalty area. Sort of like in the second half, when Nigeria put in a couple of slightly fresher A-team players.
I did just fine. You on the other hand...... Here's the part you cannot grasp for some reason. At no point in Riquelme's career did anyone ever imply he is a great winger, could be a great winger or will develop in to a winger. Immediately after the WC2006 many of you were already proclaiming that he would be able to fill the role with ease, that he would be able to nail the set pieces, be the on pitch director. After Copa2007 it got even more exaggerated. He's played that role now as far back as Basile for a few matches and under Diego and Batista exclusively. How many matches before he's comfortable in that role? Maybe we should just acknowledge that for him to win with Argentina he needs to play either as a wing/forward or the support striker b/w a real #9 and a real #10. . You really can't see what you're doing? You've lowered Messi's bar to that of a player you hardly rate. I don't claim Riquelme is an all-time great nor have I ever but if you disagree you can produce the post. And to this date all the areas I said he needed to improve upon are still areas in which he still needs work. I've always cautiously rated Messi as the best in the world for the exception when he still wasn't starting for Barca and the start of his first injury free season. Keep making stuff up, it does nothing to deflect your bias. . Like I said, put up or shut up. I've never once said such a thing. You definitely have me mixed up with NYC_Cosmos and I'm pretty confident that all the Argentina regulars would back that up. Anyone that didn't including yourself is more than welcome to produce said post/s. I've always posted that our best chance to win something is with Messi on the pitch, however his usage and reliance is what I've questioned. He's Argentine and unquestionably the best player in the world. I am Argentine and I am able to criticize elements of his game and performances. That is objective. Show me some objectivity Phil, explain to me why Messi can't finish at the moment.
Ok. Spain lost a game too. They are still the best in the world. And Ghana is a good team. They would (and should) have advanced to the semifinal if it hadn't been for the hand of suarez.
Ok. Spain lost a game too. They are still the best in the world. And Ghana is a good team. They would (and should) have advanced to the semifinal if it hadn't been for the hand of suarez. As far as Argentina's attack you have a point. Their defense? Not so much.
Agree ... and PLUS ... some more... Maradona was a true LEADER who led (any) team in to success and winning with jis skills and his SPIRIT Maradona was a true PLAYMAKER that any team could be built on and relied on (Messi NOW is just a wanna be playmaker or .. in the making) SKILLSET? M<essi still got a LONG way to catch up Maradona that I do not see he will ever be... (control midfield, passing , freekicks, Long and shorty shooting techniques ...)
Once again, your reading comprehension has totally left you. No one here is comparing Riquelme to Messi or accusing you of proclaiming Riquelme as a winger. As I have stated several times, your double standard lies with defending Riquelme's underperformance while criticizing Messi's when both had to play in a different role. Not so sure what is so hard to comprehend about that. I've listed specific examples, the onus is on you to own up to your bias to Riquelme and acknowledge your erroneous claims that I have not criticized Messi. It's been explained dozens of times over. When one chooses to ignore facts and obsess over one criteria which supports their underlying bias towards the player, not much else can be explained
Hold up the mirror Phil. It's your reading comprehension as well as your emotions to the player that are interfering with your ability to grasp anything remotely critical of Messi. I wasn't comparing the two players directly, it was the circumstance and expectation between the two. When Riquelme went to Barca nobody ever said he'd be able to play or adjust to that role. It simply isn't in his skill set. We (mainly Bosteros) acknowledged that from the start. In Messi's circumstance he was hyped from the end of the 2006 World Cup as the guy that was so talented that by 2010/2011 he would be able to play the Enganche role. I don't think for a second that Messi has been a failure in that role but he also hasn't set himself apart from any of the previous #10's Argentina has had over the last 10-15 years. If Messi is the player you and others are saying he is (which I really don't disagree with) then why would you establish a barometer that compares him to a lesser player? With expectations going up so does the bar that they are measured at. You can't move the goals posts to suit your stance, that's weak. So because you say you've been critical of Messi I should just take you on your word? Like I said, put up or shut up, and link those posts that you say have been "critical" of Messi. I, out of sheer boredom searched your posts and what you say is there simply isn't there. If my claims are erroneous then the onus is on you to prove otherwise. As far as me owning up to my bias towards Riquelme, when have I stated otherwise? My bias towards Riquelme is something I've openly stated and considering the amount of times he's shown up in my avatar or signature line it would be awfully disingenuous to state otherwise. As far as my ability to be objective and critical of the player I can quickly provide a few links in which I've shown varied levels criticism or questioning. You cannot, and as I said earlier in this post, I've searched your posting history and said criticisms towards Messi don't exist. What's been explained dozens of times over? Certainly not his inability to find the back of the net for Argentina. That's the only fact that is pertinent as it's the only fact about his game play that I honestly have a major issue with. The different role argument is absolute bullshit, being a play maker does not excuse from the obligation of helping with the goal scoring. It may not be the primary role of the play maker but it sure is hell is an expectation. It's also not like anyone has voiced that we expect him to score on every touch. One goal every now and then would be nice, especially when you look at the amount of matches we've either lost or tied by virtue of one goal. I already know you'll come back with the "what about Tevez, Higuain, Lavezzi....not being able to score" shtick but as pointed out before and not just by me, they aren't considered remotely on the same level as Messi hence the expectation isn't the same. Of course you may be saying that Messi should be held to the same par level of expectation because he's actually just a little bit overrated. You simply refuse to address the only issue which has been coming up about Messi and it's his inability to score over the last 1440 minutes. You refuse to address the fact that in that time he's played more minutes, had more touches and had more shots. If we were talking about assists then it would be fine to bring up his teammates but we aren't and if we were I'd be right there with you in the criticisms for those guys. Even Messi has openly voiced his frustration with not being able to score nor did he at any point blame or deflect it towards his teammates. Why can't you do the same? How about you acknowledge your bias or simply address his impotence at shooting on goal over the past two and a half years?
In what sense or association do I have to the player that would make me emotional towards him? I could care less if he quit playing tomorrow. For football, it would be a shame because he has a rare talent and ability, but I have no sort of connection or attachment whatsoever. You on the other hand, carry this vindictive nationalistic baggage that has influenced every evaluation you have made on the player. (whether its him not being 'Argentinian' enough, not playing for Boca, or whatever the situation) This is why I said your reading comprehension has left you. Where in the posts was I comparing the two players? Their situation and role change was the thing pointed out, and nowhere was anyone doing a comparison on their abilities. I do not have the time nor energy to just weed through old posts. I have stated it before and have REPEATED his downfalls in the previous post (his overdribbling, arsenal match, etc). If you really went through the post history then just one week ago you would have seen I criticized his ability to be captain: "Some players do not have the personality for being captain...Messi is not the vocal motivator... He simply is not the best personality for it" So much for it not being there, huh? It has been explained several times. If one chooses to have blinders on then ofcourse you wont pick it up. Him stating his frustration of not scoring does not equate to him thinking he deserves a disproportionate amount of blame and criticism for the team failures. I dont know how you extrapolate that from his remark. You are simply just fishing for quotes to frame your argument. Your problem is you choose one criteria to latch onto (goals scored) and no matter what facts come along the way (playing in a different role, coaching debacles, being forced to drop back and supply to inefficient strikers), you revert back to 'but he isn't on the score sheet'. If you didnt waste so much time trying to find ways to make him a scapegoat and actually watch the matches, you would see he has regularly put in impressive performances and been the only creative attacking force for most of the matches. It is no surprise, as you (and other Boca, Argentinian supporters) have done this from the beginning of his career. To each his own, but dont try to play it off as non-bias assessments and mask your underlying agenda towards the player. It would benefit you to look up the word 'objectivity' in the dictionary and maybe try to apply it the next time you watch him on the NT. Both have been proven wrong above.
Phil you really need to stop posting angry it doesn't suit you. With regards to the bold part, you need to link or simply STFU. This is now the second or third time you've attributed that sentiment to me yet it has zero foundation. About three posters in the Argentina forum have expressed those views and I was not one of them. You are going to find posts of me speaking against those guys and my disagreement with those sentiments. Like I said, link those posts in which I take exception to his not being Argentine enough or better yet not having played for Boca. If you can't or won't post them (since they don't exist) nor acknowledge you are wrong on this matter then stfu. No it hasn't. Nothing about my posts compare the players, it compares the situations and the difference of abilities of the two players and how and why that has effected expectations. In your eyes the hands down best player in the world should have the same expectation of lesser players. That's the point. Holy cow I stand corrected You provided proof you were critical of his personality and not his game play. Gold star coming your way! It hasn't been explained, it's been deflected but again not explained. Pointing out all the other things he does which I've never really had issue with doesn't address nor explain why he simply isn't scoring. How the hell did you come to that conclusion from my post? I simply pointed out that what I see as an issue must be enough of an issue if Messi voiced his frustration about it. I've never connected the matter with his deserving more criticism. That's just stuff you're making up now. What do the things in bold actually have to do with his finishing? It's not like he isn't getting the shots nor is like he's taking shots from 35-45 yards out. As I've pointed out before, we aren't looking for the 10-20-30 goals outbursts as that isn't realistic but one goal Phil? One goal may have had a profound effect in how our Copa played out yet that isn't a concern to you as you'll simply point out that "nobody else is doing it". Scoring isn't the be all end all but in football it's in my opinion pretty important. Once again you can throw out all the bullshit excuses which address other matters but it still doesn't address the following: How is it that a player of his caliber with his obvious finishing ability get the disproportionate amount of shots and touches as he does yet can't put it past the keeper? It isn't like he doesn't score on the same kind of shots at Barca. Address his finishing, that's all and nothing else. I haven't blamed our performances on him. I've also posted to the effect that he's looked impressive in matches from Costa Rica, Uruguay, South Korea, Mexico........I've never denied any of that, I simply find it bizarre that a player who produces that kind of output for his club cannot score one goal for his country. Yet again link or stfu on this already. You won't find a single post or article that links any questions or criticisms of Messi to the club. It simply doesn't exist aside from inside your "objective" mind. You also throw this whole agenda word around and based mostly on the bullshit you chose to make-up. The only agenda I have is for that of my country to win a major tournament for the first time since 1993. I've posted it before and I'll post it again. Country, club and then player. Between 1978 and 1986 we didn't exactly have a huge Boca presence on the NT yet my ardent support for the side never backed off. Winning a major tournament is my only agenda. You tell yourself whatever it is you need to but ultimately you haven't really proven anything. You know, you get up in arms about Messi receiving disproportionate criticism yet compared to other #10's most notably Maradona he is actually getting off kind of easy. Maradona was consistently shredded by the press and fans when he wasn't perfect. Is it fair? No but it comes with the territory and as long as he's Argentine and he wears that number he will be wearing a target. It was the reason that Riquelme for a while with the NT chose to wear the #8.
Messi has the talent. Expectations. They come from fans and media. To be a king. Better than Diego. The best player of the generation. The greastest player ever. You are judged on what you are. A top player is expected to perform to his level.
Not sure where you are interpreting that from. As you said in another thread, that is the way you and I debate. And ironically it is you going around posting 'put up or shut up', STFU, and 'based on your bullshit'. Then where does the bias stem from? A recent post of yours even stated how you 'might start giving the kid some slack and not be so hard on him'. So even indirectly that is admitting a bias. No, it has nothing to do with expectations. It was a double standard with two players in similar circumstance that you gave a pass to one while criticized the other. Interesting way to admit you were wrong on the issue. Tell me, how many genuine straight forward shots has the player blundered for the NT? You seem to still miss the point. No one doubts that Messi needs to help his team with scoring, but when you look at blatant facts, in the role he has been given and the lack of support and supply then it puts things into perspective. No one is giving him a free pass, but to throw the amount of blame towards his play based on that one criteria is foolish. So because something unjustified has been done in history means that it is ok to blindly repeat it? If a player genuinely deserves the criticism then a proportionate amount should be expressed towards him, nothing more, nothing less.
This is an excellent question. I have often wondered just that, considering the fact that he scores so often for Barca and so rarely for Argentina. Well, here's what I have found regarding shots that should/could have been goals from Messi in the Copa America (only from looking at his highlights posted on youtube in matches against Bolivia, Columbia and Uruguay; considering that those were the ones in which Argentina really needed him to score) - Vs Bolivia 1. 1st Half, took first time shot with his right foot from just inside the box after being fed the ball from the edge of the box on the right wing. A more two footed player would definitely have made it more difficult for the keeper than what Messi did and a right footed player would probably have scored. 2. 2nd Half, chested down and half volleyed ball from the edge of the 6-yard box after being put through on goal by a lob from the left wing. IMO this was one of his best chances and if he had volleyed the ball straight away instead of chesting it down, then there was a good probability of him scoring. Vs Columbia 1. 2nd Half, freekick from the corner of the box on the right side (around 25 yards is my guess) that Messi skyed into the stands. Granted he is not a freekick specialist, but skying it from a deadball situation at a critical juncture in the match is not what I would expect from him. Vs Uruguay 1. 2nd Half ET, picked up a lose ball and took a shot from edge of the box (position similar to Ronaldinho's when he scored against Milan in the 04-05 CL) towards the right side of goal. Comfortable save in the end for the keeper, could have been better (he dragged it a bit IMO) considering that it was on his favourite left foot and that he had a bit of time with him having arrived from deep to pick up the lose ball and thus having no marker(s) on him. 2. 2nd Half ET, defender blocked shot from close range after a lucky ball fell towards him on the edge of the box and he took it upto the 6-yard box by dribbling across a defender. One of the best chances, definitely should have finished this and become a hero for Argentina, considering that this was right near the end of extra time. I guess 5 good chances is not a lot, but I am not aware of any of the forwards getting more (more clearcut yes, but more no) from chances that Messi created for them in the Copa during the above matches. I could be wrong though ofcourse, just as I could be wrong with the chances that I have listed above (there might be some more or these might not be clearcut enough). However, I don't think that he would be getting more or better chances to score in a cup tournament, considering the position that he is playing in at the moment. To be frank, the players that Argentina have started these matches with meant that there was nobody to share the offensive creative burden with Messi (he had two forwards ahead of him and 3 CMs/CDMs behind him). Looking at his displays as AM up untill now, I think that this is too big a task to put on his shoulders. I think it is best to let him play as an inverted winger, which would be the position where he would be most comfortable and most dangerous. Especially considering that it is easy for the opposition to crowd the center of midfield to stop him since there he is not able to use his pace, which is his main weapon, as effectively as he could on the wing.
Thanks to Castrol Stats for WC2010, Messi had no less than 30 shots (15shots on goals) and no goals in that WC. Call him bad luck or so but 0goals/30shots was a terrible stats so to speak especiaLLY for Messi's caliber Just a reference with Ronaldo (same caliber of Messi) at WC2002: 28shots with 18shots on goals to result 8goals
Best to rely on evidence obtained through looking at player highlights in the match IMO, since the above Castrol stats would put both 30-yard hopeful long distance shots and 1-on-1 shots in the box with the goalkeeper, in the same category.
The main problem that most people have is that they prefer to rank players based 5% of their career games rather than the full 100% sample size.
OK, what is everyone's opinion on why Messi is not scoring for Argentina? Seriously! Moishe says that Messi fans have been deflecting on this issue. Let's here some real reasons. Is he not good enough? I personally think part of the reason is Messi himself, part of the reason is his teammates and part of the reason is the coaching of the team.