The You don't see that very often thread

I think leaving the corner arc would be a good addition, we always have the guy put the ball down then kick it with his heel towards goal, usually several yards so there's no mistake that it moved.. I can understand how trickery may not sit right with some people and I DID question in my head why they would do this when clearly dominating another team so easily when they could have practiced it when they were only up by 1.

I don't think we would ever use it to blow out another team.

 

In the two examples recently given the score was 5-0 and 4-0 when the play was pulled off. That's more about embarrassing the other team than anything else. I just don't get it, just like I don't get the "push the limits or you're not trying" mentality.

 

When I was an AR in a high school match we had a coach come up to the crew before the game and said he wanted to let us know of/ask us about a trick play his team does. Before he got to explaining it the CR told him essentially "hold on, let me get the other coach if we're going to discuss how I'm going to call the match so it's fair." Interestingly enough, the coach decided he didn't need to let us know/ask us about a trick play.

Another game I was an AR right in front of the "trick" play where one player "kicked" the ball only to have his teammate come over, move the ball with his hand and then proceed to dribble it. So we had to decide if the ball was in play for the deliberate hand ball or in play for the double touch!

 

Yeah, I liked Randy Vogt's column today about not officiating any differently in a blowout, but if I saw a team do this, I'd at least be wondering how I'm going to keep control of the game when the losing team starts retaliating.

 

Deliberate verbal tactics are one of the USB cautions in NFHS play. So, “you take the corner” could fall under that domain. It would have to be a time and temperature type of thing for me as a referee. Not sure if I would call it or not, but it’s in the rulebook.

 

OK...I'll be the sore thumb. Doing these plays is NOT soccer. (I call that the anti-statement )
There is no place in soccer for trickery or deceit. Look at how we treat "diving" or "flopping". We don't like it because one team is trying to deceive the referee and/or the other team. We also don't allow a flick up to the head before heading back to the keeper. It's actually called "trickery" in the LOTG. We have also mostly eliminated "trick" penalty kicks.
If you want to play a game of trickery..play checkers or something else, but not a sport that is constantly having to clarify the laws because people want to "trick" and "deceive".
Here's a thought. Play soccer.
If I referee one of your games...I'm the curmudgeon who says "sorry I didn't see it clearly move" and depending on the play, more than likely an IFK for a double touch.
I also like the idea of the ball having to leave the corner area but that itself creates issues because the ball may be placed on the very outer edge of the line and only have to "slightly move" to now leave the corner area....and you still end up with players trying to trick.

 

I understand where you are coming from, but of course it isn't that straightforward. If I am dribbling toward you, feint left, and then cut to the right with the ball I am trying to trick you. If my teammate passes the ball to me and I dummy it, I am trying to trick the defender into covering me while my teammate behind me takes the shot. Both legal and illegal deception can occur during the game. The LOTG and associated references define some actions as trickery and illegal, but it is a stretch to include any type of deception you personally don't like in that category.

 

Agreed. But why would you limit it to corners. Every free kick should have the same standard applied.

 

"Blue, you're the away team, call it>"
"Heads."
"Heads it is. Blue captains, what do you choose?"
"We choose to dribble in a straight line, passing only once per possession, red team must only shoot from outside the PA and ONLY after announcing where their shot will be placed."

Reminds me of a Bill Cosby bit about coin tosses through history. I agree, it's absolutely a game of trickery. Playing the ball around for an entire half to lull the opposing team into chasing it in the second half so you can then throw guys forward and score is trickery. Strategy is a form of trickery. There's a difference between sporting trickery and unsporting trickery, like yelling "LEAVE IT!" to an opponent, that's unsporting. Having three men run over a free kick before the 4th kicks it is sporting trickery.

We can all disagree and have different opinions on it, but it's definitely not illegal.

In my blowout match, the losing coach was really very gentlemanly about it. Chatted with him quite a bit while standing on the half line the entire second half. He's got a very young team, he knows the other team is preparing and practicing for playoffs next week. At least we got to cut the 2nd in half and move on. TBH, his team was pretty checked out from the get-go, end of a long season, I imagine.

 

100% agree there is a big difference between sporting and unsporting trickery. We do not allow our kids to take fake dives or call off an opponent.

To knowingly not allow a corner kick turn from a long shot to a short pass is unbecoming of a referee and I hope that SCV-Ref was joking. If he was serious, I doubt that he has ever played the game then.

 

Had the same thing in a HS match many years ago. coach came up to me before the game and said that they play a trick corner and to please be aware because the last ref called the double touch. Game goes on and the team has pulled this trick already once. So they get another CK and player takes the ball and moves it where he wants it with his foot, after a second or two he leaves because the coach actually wanted another player to take it. Player walks up and picks up the ball to tee it up and *tweet" handling.

You live by the sword, you die by the sword.

 

Was the ball in play when the player moved the ball with his foot to re position it? Was he rolling the ball to obviously re position it? I agree with Spencedawgmillionaire, the law currently allows for weirdness to occur, either by a referee that doesn't like that a team has a trick play, or by players trying to do a trick play one time, and the other just re positioning the ball.

 

So it sounds like any time a player tosses or drops the ball on the ground when another player is coming to take a throw in, you call it an illegal throw, right? That would be a necessary and congruent application of the laws based on this logic.

 

No, that's not what he's saying. This goes to the key problem of the trick corner--the kicking team can't have it both ways. The same action can't, when it benefits the kicking team, cause the ball to be in play, but not be in play when it does not benefit the kicking team. It isn't Shrodinger's Cat that is or isn't in play depending on what happens next and what the kicking wants the effect of the kick to have been. Once the team establishes that a kind of touch is intended to put the ball in play, that applies to the next one, too.

 

Which is why we just make sure our player rolls the ball out of the arc.

 

We actually had this same, similar rather issue.

We did our trick corner in the 1st half.

THEN, in the second half, our player sets the ball down for a corner and the referee allows a defender to just take the ball off the corner and dribble downfield. AR just stood there like a dope. Our HC got tossed for his following fit of rage (his first dismissal ever, he's pretty chill).

Post match, I'm asking CR about it and the AR says that he placed it down with his hands and never touched it after that. He should have popped and wiggled, so not really the referee's fault, but CR then says "See, THAT'S why I hate trick plays, YOU should have known better." Meh, whaddya gonna do?

 

Whoaa there big fella...
Please don't call my soccer credentials into question. I'm 57 and there has not been a year since I was 6 that I haven't been involved in the sport.
But that is not important. I never for a moment suggested that a short pass corner kick should not be allowed. In fact, there should be more of them IMHO. But there is a mile of difference between a short pass and "pretending" that you haven't yet put the ball into play. It is simply unsporting. Talk about a way to change my words.
And while I feel the need to clarify, there is also a mile of difference between faking a pass (throwing a dummy while dribbling) and using trickery. One has always been a part of the game and the other has only been part of the game since teams started to look for loopholes in the LOTG much like people look for tax loopholes. While legal..immoral. And while tax authorities continue to try and close tax loopholes, the IFAB continue to try and close loopholes for trickery that were never intended to be part of the game. I guess I just don't understand the mentality of those who say "let's see what we can get away with". I know it exists...I just don't understand it.
And if I don't see the ball clearly move, there is a whistle.

 

I don't know? Ball was touched and visibly moved. Do you want me to try and put intent into the players actions? usually frowned upon under most LOTG.

How should I know?? The team has already told me that they are going to try and deceive the other team, now I am supposed to guess at what time they decide to do it?

I just see it as to many of these youth coaches are drinking the Bill Belichick kool Aid of coaching. Like stated before trying to find a Loophole in the LOTG to benefit a team at the expense of their opponent. It's the way of the world and the dignified coaches just wanting to teach kids life lessons while getting them some exercise and having fun has long since left the barn. If you want to try and get one UP on your opponent, congrats. Not my style, but careful what you wish for, world is fraught with unintended circumstances.

 

Sorry about that, but your last post made it sound like you were going to call it a no-kick. Re-reading that post and this one shows me that's not what you were saying, sorry about that.

Like I said before, and maybe not clearly said before you originally posted, our player kicks the ball a foot or so at least. The ole barely tapping it play is a tough one, and currently legal. If they just change the law to have it leave the area to be in play, and then you will have to live with the teeny tap that has the ball leave the area...

 

Had a JV boy this week taking a throw-in, between the benches. With the ball in his hands, he jumps in the air and turns 90 degrees as he throws the ball. Tweet. Both coaches are chuckling. He looks at me with that expression of "what?' "You have to keep both feet on the ground." "I can't jump?" He seemed genuinely surprised. In guess he thought he'd invented a better way to take throw-ins.

 

Here's a "what would you do?"

AR2. Had a high school boy who did flip throws. Unfortunately, on his third or fourth throw of the game after springing off the ball he realized he was under-rotating and wasn't going to make it, so he dropped the ball. He still landed ugly on his back and we had to call the trainer out.

The ball had never entered the field of play, but we're under NFHS so that doesn't necessarily matter. The CR and I conferred and decided it was improper, both because the throw never entered the field and because he released the ball with no feet on the ground, and gave the throw to the opposing team.

The player's coach went ballistic and said there wasn't an attempt to throw the ball in, and should have been considered like a player pump-faking on a normal throw. That got the fans going, particularly because they were already upset that the home crowd found the failed flip hilarious.

 

Yep. And you wonder why referees quit. As I say quite often in my games at the first hint of dissent at a throw in: “Folks, we are NOT arguing throw ins today.”

I had a match once where a coach went to the tell on a throw in, and that got thrown out on a more important discussion. He then was unable to get his pass back and coach later that day in a State Cup semi final.

 

U17B. I'm AR1. I'm setting up for the kickoff with the back line and I look down and here comes the coach from the other end of the field. He's not looking at me but directing his players. I look at him and tell him to get back on his side of the field. He tells me he is allowed to coach from that end as that's where his defense is. No coach. Just because the players switch ends that doesn't mean you do.