Pasted it wrong from the site, sorry: I myself was in a hurry to sleep too!... What's the big difference, though?... Look at that 'formidable' English defense that took so complacently the 'goal of the century"!... GK Peter Shilton 2 DF Gary Stevens 3 DF Kenny Sansom 4 MF Glenn Hoddle 5 DF Alvin Martin 6 DF Terry Butcher 7 MF Bryan Robson 8 MF Ray Wilkins 9 FW Mark Hateley 10 FW Gary Lineker 11 MF Chris Waddle 12 DF Viv Anderson 13 GK Chris Woods 14 DF Terry Fenwick 15 DF Gary A. Stevens 16 MF Peter Reid 17 MF Trevor Steven 18 MF Steve Hodge 19 FW John Barnes 20 FW Peter Beardsley 21 FW Kerry Dixon 22 GK Gary Bailey In that whole team there literally ain't one single name to be remembered (specially defenders): maybe Shilton? Maybe Barnes or Lineker? (good players but not defensemen)... England? Northern Ireland?... All 'flour of the same bag'...: Now (again) compare to the 'task' Pelé had to face: 1GKGordon Banks2DFKeith Newton3DFTerry Cooper4MFAlan Mullery5DFBrian Labone6DFBobby Moore7FWFrancis Lee8MFAlan Ball9MFBobby Charlton10FWGeoff Hurst11FWMartin Peters12GKPeter Bonetti13GKAlex Stepney14DFTommy Wright15DFNobby Stiles16MFEmlyn Hughes17DFJack Charlton18MFNorman Hunter19MFColin Bell20FWPeter Osgood21FWAllan Clarke22FWJeff Astle Even Italy of that time was more respectable than in your adored 80's: 1 GK Enrico Albertosi 2 DF Tarcisio Burgnich 3 DF Giacinto Facchetti 4 DF Fabrizio Poletti 5 DF Pierluigi Cera 6 MF Ugo Ferrante 7 MF Comunardo Niccolai 8 MF Roberto Rosato 9 MF Giorgio Puia 10 DF Mario Bertini 11 FW Luigi Riva 12 GK Dino Zoff 13 FW Angelo Domenghini 14 MF Gianni Rivera 15 MF Sandro Mazzola 16 MF Giancarlo De Sisti 17 GK Lido Vieri 18 DF Antonio Juliano 19 FW Sergio Gori 20 FW Roberto Boninsegna 21 DF Giuseppe Furino 22 FW Pierino Prati
Ok... But I see you throw me a statement like " Seriously how many times did Pele go up against Yashin? 1, 2 times maybe. Definitely less than the times Maradona went up against Zenga, Dino Zoff or Andoni Zubizarreta etc etc". If "not playing against them on a regular basis" is a downside, then what the hell is Zoff doing on your list of keepers "Maradona had to play against" ? Zoff retired in 1983, before Maradona arrived to Serie A, and the only time when they played against each other was that fateful encounter from WC 1982. So, it was only once. And, btw, Zubizaretta played against Maradona on a regular basis only for a brief period between 1982 and 1984.
I fail to see what point you are really trying to make, so I'm not going to get into this debate. If you can't tell the difference between England, Northern Ireland and Britain there is no hope. That you consider Bryan Robson, Peter Shilton, Gary Lineker, Glenn Hoddle etc as such forgettable players shows a complete lack of knowledge or regard for the game in Europe.
And what the big deal about Maradona (quantitavely) facing 'more regularly' Italian defenses?... First of all not all (as a matter of fact, not even that many) Italian clubs of that time displayed fuoriclassi like Baresi, Maldini, Costacurta, etc... The fact that the 80's in Italy was more defense-oriented (what for me is a sign of self-declared weakness) does not mean that its defenders were qualitatively better than a Faccheti, a Burgnich, a Dino Zoff, a Trapattoni. It's just a conception of game and an unfortunately reactionary & conservative one. Italy BTW never won anything with those super-defenses: its big victory in WCs was with the 1982 offensive team of Paolo Rossi...
Pasted it wrong, it's explained above, and you conveniently disconsidered it, since that was the only and desperate 'argument' that you could find in order to 'back' yours... Besides, Bryan Robson, Gary Lineker, Glenn Hoddle were MFs and FWs and we were talking about defensive lines (Lineker & Barnes were even considered by me as 'good players'). My point was (and that you also ignored): compared to Banks, Bobby Moore, Jack & Bobby Charlton, do you have any doubt they are more than forgettable?... If you dont recognize that, the 'complete lack of knowledge' is simply yours... You saw, but pretended you 'didn't see' that I was stressing my point more on the English defense (since the theme now are 'the defenses at Maradona's/ Pelé's times'): the laughable Stevens, Samson, Martin & Butcher...
But we're talking about the league genius UEFA Cup (scores are aggregate) 1988/89 Napoli 5-4 VfB Struttgart 1989/90 Juventus 3-1 Fiorentina 1990/91 Inter 2-1 Roma 1991/92 Torino 2-2 Ajax (Ajax win on away goals) Genoa make the semifinals 1992/93 Juventus 6-1 Borussia Dortmund 1993/94 Inter 2-0 Casino Salzburg Cagliari make the semifinals 1994/95 Parma 2-1 Juventus Champions League 1984/85 Juventus 1-0 Liverpool 1988/89 Milan 4-0 Steaua Bucuresti 1989/90 Milan 1-0 Benfica 1991/92 Barcelona 1-0 Sampdoria (aet) 1992/93 Marseille 1-0 Milan 1993/94 Milan 4-0 Barcelona 1994/95 Ajax 1-0 Milan Cup Winners Cup 1983/84 Juventus 2-1 Porto 1988/89 Barcelona 2-0 Sampdoria 1989/90 Sampdoria 2-0 Anderlecht 1992/93 Parma 3-1 Royal Antwerp 1993/94 Arsenal 1-0 Parma UEFA Super Cup 1984 Juventus 2-0 Liverpool 1989 Milan 2-1 Barcelona 1990 Milan 3-1 Sampdoria 1993 Parma 2-1 Milan So, during the time period, it is more than evident that the Serie A was the best league in the world and possibly the best during any time period The list doesn't even include Juventus 1996 and 2 other Italians making the CL finals (decided it would stretch out too far) So from 1984-1995 when Serie A was at its height, they won: 4 Champions League (runner up: 3 times), 6 UEFA Cup titles (runner up: 4 times, 3 times all Italian final), 3 Cup Winners Cup and 4 UEFA Supercups (2 all-Italian finals)
Bold statements like that DO DESERVE to be stressed in bold ... How easily the word 'world' is used by a few people to design just a portion of that world, only to fit their 'line of reasoning'... Also incredible your precise overall view of all 'time periods' having lived only 20 (22?) of the last 130 years of football ... And I'm the 'biased Brazilian'...
You've completely missed the point. Apart from Shilton none of those players are defenders. And you prove his point by not citing a single defender as a great player from one of these squads to put on your list of, "Robson, Linneker...etc."
What argument? I wasn't making one. I was merely pointing out that looking down a list of N Irish players, and considering them poor as a proof of the English league's status is hardly encouraging, not to mention the fact that according to you Pat Jennings (a goalkeeper far superior to any that Brazil or S America have ever produced) was an unknown to you. Gary Stevens was a top right back for Everton, one of the best teams in Europe in the 80s. Kenny Sansom holds the record for the most caps for a left-back and is an Arsenal legend. Alvin Martin was a cultured centre-half from West Ham, who was a very good player. Terry Butcher was one of the best central defenders England has produced. Quite possibly superior to Jackie Charlton, who you rated as one of the 4 best CBs of all time. That is who those players were FYI.
What makes you think the English league had a sudden drop off from the early 80s to the late 80s? Maybe from 1988-1990 they were no longer the best, and replaced by Italy in the early 90s, but for the major part of the 1980s, they were the best league in the world.
And who said you were 'making one'? I simply used the word 'argument' btw quotation marks... And I proved to you there was not the slightest difference btw them and the Brittish or English I 'failed' to cite (at that time they all looked 'japanese' to the world's eyes)... If I cited him he could not be unknown to me. But...Pat 'Who?' Jennings being superior to Fillol, Barbosa, Mazurkiewicz, Gilmar, Amadeo Carrizo is one of the best jokes I've ever heard in this whole Forum... Jackie could have not been the most technical CD of all times, but El Pibe wouldn't survive his first dribble against him in the 'Goal of the Century' (that you overrate just because it was on top of always overrated and always humbled England)... With the exception of the respectable English Team of the 66/70s, of course...
While I can't comment on the overall quality difference between the teams, apart from Diego, the 1986 Arg was clearly no team of jokers.
if we count the uefa coefficient in the 80s i think england was the strongest leaque in the 80s..(ignore the ban)..italy was tied with germany from 1980/81-1989/90 i think second in europe....the combinated uefa coefficients is nearly indentical in this 10 years between italy and germany..spain close behind 4th ranked i think.... italy 134590 points...germany 134030 points 1980/81 italy 6th...germany 7th 1981/82 italy 13th..germany 6th 1982/83 italy 9th...germany 3th 1983/84 italy 2th...germany 15th 1984/85 italy 2th...germany 3th 1985/86 italy 5th...germany 1th 1986/87 italy 2th...germany 5th 1987/88 italy 9th...germany 5th 1988/89 italy 3th...germany 5th 1989/90 italy 1th...germany 2th
I know very well that, and I hope you haven't failed to notice that that was an ironic 'strategic' remark on my part...
One suggestion : the titles won by Serie A between 1985 and 1990 and immediately afterwards cannot be used to proclaim the superiority of its league because their toughest competitor, who previously dominated ECC, was not competing anymore, due to the Heysel ban and, after the ban was lifted, the strength of their teams was seriously affected by this event. Obviously, it was going to be easier for serie A to win more awards when its most serious rival was so severely hurt. While those trophies are rightfully yours, because the teams winning them displayed a lot of quality, to use them in order to shove down everyone's throat not just that Serie A was the best in the world at that time (which probably was) but THE BEST OF ALL TIME shows a total lack of modesty and not very much fair-play. PS : A league packed with stars does not automatically implies the best in the world. Between 1972-1985, the "stars" from Premiership could be counted on fingers, yet their teams won no less than 7 ECC, 1 Cup Winner's Cup and 4 UEFA Cups towards a return of 1 ECC, 2 Cup Winner's Cup and 1 UEFA cup for italian teams during the same time period. Also Premiership was runner up 2 times (in 1975 and 1985) in ECC, 3 times in C2 and once in C3. This makes a return of 12 european trophies and 6 runners up and this with mostly domestic talent and with no other league excluded from the competition. During that time, Premiership did not have even half the number of the "craques" which played in Brazil between 1958 and 1970, and yet they dominated european cups like very few other leagues managed to in the history of european football. And, btw, Maradona played in Serie A between 1984 and 1991. During his first 4 seasons there, Serie A teams managed to get only FOUR spots in the semifinals of the european competitions. There are : Juventus in 1984/1985 (which they will win), Atalanta in Cup Winner's Cup in 1987/1988 (they lost in the semifinals to Mechelen) and Internazionale Milano in the UEFA Cup in 1985 and 1986 (they lost both times in semifinals to Real Madrid). The other times, italian times were eliminated by : In Champion's League : Juventus 1986 - Barcelona Verona 1986 - Juventus Juventus 1987 - Real Madrid Napoli 1988 - Real Madrid Cup Winner's Cup : Roma 1985 - Bayern Munchen Sampdoria 1986 - Benfica Roma 1987 - Real Zaragoza Atalanta 1988 - KV Mechelen UEFA Cup : Fiorentina 1985 - Anderlecht Internazionale 1985 - Real Madrid Milan 1986 - KSV Waregem Inter 1986 - Real Madrid Fiorentina 1987 - Boavista Napoli 1987 - Toulouse Internazionale 1987 - IFK Goteborg Torino 1987 - FC Tirol Innsbruck Milan 1988 - Espanyol Juventus 1988 - Panathinaikos Internazionale 1988 - Espanyol Verona - Werder Bremen You've made into the semifinals only four times out of 21... with English teams out of the race between 1985 and 1988. Normally, that's a decent record, not bad, but not very good either, but when you call yourself "best league of ALL TIMES", that is piss poor. So maybe you shouldn't be so full of yourself.
Boy, what the hell are you still doing here? You should go and watch the videos from the sixties before being this assertive, cuz yet again you prove you've never seen Pelé on the pitch. As if saying that his style was not enthralling and that the league he was playing in was crap is not enough, you also completely ignore the fact that most of his opponents had direct orders to cripple him. Did you watch the world cups at least? Jesus!
You don't mean that do you? Seriously? Dino Zoff held the World Record for minutes without being scored against largely because of the men in front of him at Juve and the national team. Scirea was arguably the equal of Baresi, Gentile simply locked strikers down, and Cabrini was one of the best in a long line of great Italian left backs. I recommend you do yourself a favor and do some reading on something other than Brazilian football before you post next, since you seem to require the same of others on the subject of Pele.
Jerrito, Historically, Italy ALWAYS devoted itself to defense, but in 1982 what really decided were the 3 goals by Paolo Rossi vs Brazil and his 1st goal in the final against Germany... If it weren't for Italy in modern times [from 82 on, i.e the last 1/4 of a century] assuming at least once in life an offensive attitude, it would have only won titles [2006], gone through quarterfinals [98], disputed semifinals [90] & protagonized finals [94], ALL OF THEM mediocherly ending in PKs and OTs. I need no 'reading' for that: I lived that. And even suffering with Brazil's defeat at the Sarriá, I do miss that brave Italian team that once chose to send its own 'glorious' catenaccio tradition to the depths of hell!... And win - in a genuine way - a World Cup title to its country. The rest is just Italian distemper ...
Of course we needed goals in 82. But look at the first round for Italy. 3 draws in 3 games I believe. We rely on defense and counter quite a bit. That is part of the Italian "method". Besides, how many World Titles would Brazil had if it could put together a more than mediocre defense? Perhaps appreciating it a bit more would help your side. You just seem to discount any nation other than Brazil in ALL of your arguments, which makes all of them pointless in my opinion. To sum it all up... Brazil - Always great offensively Italy - Always great defensively What is your point???
I think you are a little bit confused. First, What Zoff did in 1972/1974 (since his record dates from those years) is irellevant for what happened in 1982 (the event KK was refering to). Second, none of the three you mentioned did actually play at international level when Zoff established that record... neither Scirea, nor Gentile or Cabrini. So, I don't see what exactly were you trying to prove by bringing that example... Besides, when refering to particular events, refering to specific styles of play of each country has absolutely no meaning... For instance, in 1986, the best defense of the tournament was... the brazilian one, conceding ONE goal during the entire tournament, after 402 minutes of play, against a top-class opponent - France of Platini. In 1958, again, Brazil had the best defense in that tournament, conceding only after 369 minutes of play against the most offensive team of the tournament, France of Kopa and Fontaine. If you want to talk about great italian defending, we can talk about WC 1990, where Zenga holds the record for a clean sheet, with 517 minutes without conceding. The second is Banks with 442 minutes in 1966. Brazil also did a very good job in defense in 1986 or 1958, conceding after 402 and 369 minutes. Italy 90 or Brazil 86 also conceded only 2, respectively one goal during the tournament. England in 1966 conceded only 3 goals, Brazil in 1958 only 4. Holland in 1974 conceded thrice, West Germany only 4 times. Brazil in 1978 conceded only thrice in 7 games, Argentina only 4 times. Brazil in 1994 conceded only 3 goals in 7 games, while the super-strong italian defense (you know, Baresi, Maldini&Co) had 5 goals scored against them. In 1974, Brazil conceded again 4 goals in 7 games. Italy also conceded 6 goals in 1978 and 8 in 1970. Returning to 1982, that italian defense with Scirea, Cabrini, Gentile and Collovati conceded 6 goals during the entire tournament, 5 of them in the first 5 games, which is just as many as the so much bad-mouthed brazilian defense from 1982 (which it is said that it sucked...) In fact, between 1958 and 1994, Italy managed to play at least 5 games in 1970, 1978, 1982, 1990 and 1994. In those tournaments, they conceded 8 goals, 6 goals, 6 goals, 2 goals and respectively 5 goals. So practically only ONCE did the italian defense allowed less than 5 goals against them. Brazil at the same time managed to play at least 5 games in 1958, 1962, 1970, 1974, 1978, 1982, 1986, 1994. The number of goals conceded were 4 goals, 5 goals, 7 goals, 4 goals, 3 goals, 5 goals, 1 goal, 3 goals. The overall record of the italian defense : 34 games, 27 goals conceded. GR : 0.79 Brazil's overall record : 49 games, 32 goals. GR : 0.65 So, the italian defense wasn't exactly that rock solid as it is generally believed and Brazil has some things to boast of even in defense, not just in the offense. The problem was that, on severall occasions, the brazilian offensive displays were so stellar that it overshadowed everything else...
Read the post above and please review this statement. At WC Level, Brazil has been superior to Italy defensively (speaking for period 1958-1994)... To figure out this, someone just need to look past the stereotypes attached to each nation and analyse their campaigns. PS : In 1982, you did not "rely on defense and counter quite a bit". You just sucked in the first group stage, qualified with a lot of luck due to goal difference but, fortunately, you woke up in the next stages and put some great displays especially against Brazil, Poland and West Germany (when you did play offensive). The statement that Italy - always great defensively is seriously overrating. Maybe in Serie A. At WC level, it does not show. Brazil never had 8 goals scored against them like Italy had in 1970, for instance.