You worked with the guy? If he was that bad, why would Brighton & Hove Albion hire him if he was that terrible as you claim? https://www.thespec.com/sports-story/6964861-new-canadian-pro-soccer-league-makes-major-hire/ Long before finally enjoying on-field success the past couple of years, TFC had been a smash hit off the field and in business circles, and the bulk of the credit was given to Beirne and his department. Just to get you up to speed a little: Hamilton, Ontario (Bob Young, CFL Hamilton Tiger-Cats) confirmed and will play out of Tim Hortons Field Winnipeg, Manitoba (CFL Blue Bombers) confirmed and will play out of Investor's Field Halifax, Nova Scotia (SEA-Sports & Entertainment Atlantic will operate the team - owner unknown) Stadium approved at Wanderers Grounds downtown Halifax https://globalnews.ca/news/3542009/new-soccer-stadium-team-halifax/ Surrey, British Columbia (Rob Friend's group) applied for a stadium and 3 sites have been brought up by the city. http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/surrey-soccer-canadian-premier-league-1.4354276 Saskatoon, Saskatchewan (Joe Belan's group with his business partner Grant McGlaughlin and Lee Genier) applied for a stadium. They plan to renovate the Prairieland Park grandstand until their modular stadium downtown Saskatoon is approved and completed. http://thestarphoenix.com/sports/soccer/kormish-canadian-premier-league-an-opportunity-for-saskatoon Kicthener-Waterloo, Ontario (K-W United FC president Barry MacLean bid for a team) https://www.therecord.com/sports-st...premier-league-could-come-to-waterloo-region/ 12 groups of ownership were confirmed to have met at CPL offices downtown Toronto in September. A meeting is confirmed to happen this week CPL News >I can confirm that 12 groups were in attendance in meetings last week in Toronto #CanPL— A. Totera (@4totera) September 18, 2017 Unofficial/Unconfirmed locations linked to CPL : Victoria, Calgary, Edmonton, Regina, London, Vaughan, Ottawa, Quebec City, Moncton, St. John's Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver won't be in CPL in phase I, however, the league intends of bringing clubs to the 3 cities in the last phase...arguably after 12-13 clubs are playing in CPL. CPL said they will look at pro/rel as soon as they hit 16 teams. Regarding ownership: There are non-disclosure agreements in place as the league are still fine tuning legal details until coming out officially. Some came out of their own initiative and also due to have to work with local governments Delay: The biggest delay identified by Paul Beirne are due to factors outside of the league's control, mainly municipalities and the construction of stadiums. Hope I covered some of your concerns. Sometimes no news is good news and the league has controlled the information being put out so far. Leaks and retractions would make it sound amateurish, don't you think? ff But what might happen is forcing them to start Canadians, which is something TFC has had mix reviews on the matter. CPL will most likely be subject to some sort of quotas, which opens the door to force the 3 MLS franchise to do the same. I think CPL will be fine. The CSA will be a major shareholder of the league, something that was never the case in the past. Contrarily to what you think of Paul Beirne, he's the perfect guy to start the league as he was TFC's 1st employee and was able to make the off-field stuff a smashing success. The business community knows him and has their immediate attention based on what he accomplished for TFC which in turns explains why the league might became much bigger than people realize due to the wealth of the owners this time around. Regarding the MLS franchises, they can force quotas on them which is likely to happen once CPL launches. The 3 MLS franchises are still members of the CSA and their participation in MLS is conditional to the CSA sanction, which leaves them little choice but to comply. It's in FIFA convention by the way
Best of luck to the CSA and CPL in getting a division 1 Canadian soccer league off the ground. I can't imagine any fan of the three Canadian teams, or MLS fans in general, have any issue with that. But the situation of the three Canadian MLS teams is not unique in the world. Welsh teams play in the EPL, and nobody seems bothered by it. Fans in Toronto, Vancouver, and Montreal seem perfectly fine with the current situation. There are 20 or so Canadian players in MLS, and they are probably happy with their employment situation, or they wouldn't have signed their respective contracts. American MLS fans have no problem with having Canadian teams in the league. So, what exactly is the problem here? You seem to be determined to see the three Canadian MLS teams punished, for some reason. But, by all indications, they're pretty much the only successful entities in Canadian soccer. Imposing a Canadian player quota seems pointless and counterproductive, since there doesn't seem to be any evidence that deserving Canadian players are being kept off MLS rosters. A quota would just inflate the salaries of Canadian players, but that wouldn't make them any better. If the CSA wants to take steps to encourage player development, they should put their money where their mouth is and increase funding to soccer academies. It's not the job of private soccer clubs to develop players for the national team.
To get back to your point about "punishing" the 3 Canadians teams, is the USSF "punishing" it's teams under it's umbrella? Obviously, no. According to FIFA conventions, it's within their rights to do so and the USSF has been doing it. Why do you believe that the CSA shouldn't do what every other nations' association have been doing the entire time? I'd like to remind you that the 3 MLS clubs are under the CSA umbrella and not the USSF. I'm not targeting you, but some fans seems unable to separate North American sport leagues from FIFA from a structure point of view. Basically, FIFA's on top, then the confederations, then the country's associations than the leagues+teams. In a nutshell, FIFA owns the sport. I get your point that that it isn't the private sector's job to provide for the national teams, however, if they want to profit from it, they need approval through sanctioning. Confederations and associations are competing against one another, so it makes sense that they impose conditions that would benefit them (money) and allow them to compete before giving a sanction to a league. USSF impose restrictions on MLS, which has allowed owners to make money and the USSF to have an improved pool players allowing them to put a good team on the pitch. Although MLS isn't a CSA league, 3 of it's teams plays in it and they haven't asked them much so far. The CSA wants the national team to improve and that's impossible if Canadians aren't playing enough. CPL will take care of that, but there's no reason to exempt the 3 MLS clubs from the same restrictions. No? They've been making lots of money thanks to the CSA sanctioning, it's only logical that the CSA imposes quotas of it's own.
What does CSA want the three MLS teams to do that they aren't doing already? They've established academies, are developing players, and have signed a significant number of Canadian players to their rosters. What, problem, exactly, are you looking to solve here? What USSF-imposed restrictions have caused MLS to improve the USMNT pool? What's your basis for saying that Canadians aren't playing enough for the three Canadian MLS teams? I checked quickly, and there are 22 Canadian players on the three Canadian MLS teams, 15 of whom were developed through the team's academies. That seems like a pretty impressive number, given the relative newness of the three teams, and their academies. The basis of your entire argument that CSA should impose quotas on these teams is that Canadian players are somehow being unfairly excluded from their rosters. But, the numbers don't back you up. MLS (and especially the three Canadian teams) seems to have no problem signing quality players to their rosters. What you seem to be proposing is that CSA mandate that the Canadian teams be forced to sign Canadian players that aren't up to MLS standards. How is that supposed to help Canadian soccer improve? Making TFC less competitive will not do anything positive for Canadian soccer. At this point, MLS is Canadian soccer. The Blue Jays aren't somehow less Canadian because they play in a predominantly American league, and neither is TFC.
CSA have left them alone, even now but once CPL starts, they will look at increasing minutes for Canadians through them. Benito Floro and current coach Zambrano are saying the same thing, not enough minutes at clubs level is the problem, not talent. MLS isn't a free for all, the domestic status does that. Americans are guarantee to play, which improves the overall quality of the pool. Don't know if there are quotas or not but there must be a restriction on international players. It's their minutes that's being criticized, not the number of Canadians on the rosters It's not about forcing them to sign more Canadians that don't belong in MLS, it's about playing those who are there and belongs there more. Perfect example must be Jackson-Hamel (Age 24, 10 goals in 20 games - mainly as a sub) in Montreal who's scored way more goals than Matteo Mancosu (Age 32, 6 goals in 26 games - as a starter). Why isn't he starting? Why is Maxime Crepau not the start goalkeeper in Montreal? He was spectacular in the Canadian Championship and very good for the Canadian National team. Why is Spencer playing in Toronto when Hamilton who has scored in MLS isn't? TFC being competitive or not made no difference for the national program. Status quo has 10 years and it failed so it needs to change. I could go on and that's not against MLS but those 3 teams specifically. I get that you might not be aware of it since you're in the US but these questions are constantly being raised by fans and local media FIFA (worldwide) is a different animal than MLB (mainly American). MLS isn't Canada soccer, it's the main 3 cities soccer. Viewership are very bad in Canada and it's been demonstrated that people outside of the main 3 cities don't care about MLS nor watch it. MLS said they had no interest in more teams in Canada, so they can't be Canada's league, that will be CPL
Club minutes for Canadians can't be imposed by the CSA on MLS League play for Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver. Their power is limited. The issue which Floro and Zambrano refer to is the lack of professional club opportunities in Canada for domestic players, which CPL is looking to address. That is good and all, it just doesn't really have anything to do with the 3 Canadian MLS teams. CSA is decades behind and even recently were sanctioning one of the most corrupt leagues in the world, the CSL. They were aloof or ignorant of its condition until it received international attention from FIFA.
It seems like what CSA wants to do is micro-manage who gets playing time on these three teams? I'm not aware of any other national federation that tries to do something like that. And, no, Americans aren't guaranteed playing time in MLS. There is no USSF rule regarding who MLS can hire. The American teams have a limited number of international slots, per MLS rules, but neither USSF nor MLS tell teams how many minutes they need to give American players. What a bizarre rule that would be.
There used to be tougher restrictions before but they were relaxed by the CSA because it was impossible for those clubs to compete. At the time it made sense, but in 2018 it doesn't. The CSA can't imposed "minutes" but they could require them to start Canadians and that they totally can do it. As long as they are members of the CSA, they have to abide by their rules as well and they are coming I don't disagree with you in regards to the CSA. However, Montagliani cleaned house and changed the culture at the CSA, that's an undeniable fact.
As explained above, the 3 teams and MLS are profiting big time from the CSA's sanctioning without demanding anything in return for 10 years. That's about to change since CPL teams will have to abide to CSA rules, MLS teams can't get special treatment. Some leagues imposed quotas, some impose restrictions on internationals or both. Both are measures ensuring that domestics plays. Example: The latest word on CPL was that a restriction on Internationals was the preferred route instead of quotas due to the size of the domestic pool and the willingness to have the highest quality possible. The numbers 8 and 10 have been mentioned. So let's say a team has a 25 man roster. There's a limit of 8 internationals per teams. You start 11 players per games + subs. Can we both agree that a minimum of 3 Canadians are guarantee to start? That's one way to do it. MLS is either doing that or quotas. (It's a restriction of 8 internationals for MLS) What the CSA needs to figure out is how to address the 3 MLS clubs so they play Canadians. Maybe starting 1 or playing 2 at every games? That will have to wait once CPL starts
Is there any evidence that the three MLS teams are not starting their best players just because they happen to be Canadian? It's a bizarre concept. I'm not familiar with Canadian labor law, but is it even legal to require a company to discriminate based on national origin in who gets to do certain work? It seems odd to me that the CSA (and you) would want to impose a rule that would discriminate based on nationality. MLS (and USSF) couldn't legally require American MLS teams to give preference on who starts based on nationality. If the CSA wants to impose rules that would make the Canadian teams less competitive in MLS, who am I to try and stop them from doing something so foolish? This whole conversation is weird. MLS teams have a pretty strong incentive to hire, and start, the best players available. You haven't shown any evidence that Canadians are somehow being discriminated against in MLS, whether north or south of the border.
That is not exactly correct. There are currently 176 total international roster spots for the 22 MLS teams. That is 8 per team but teams can trade those spots so a specific team can have as many international players as they can acquire slots for. And, remember, having a U.S. Green Card makes you a non-international, not just U.S. citizenship. Players classified as Home-Grown (those that came up through a team's academy system) are also exempt from the international slot requirements. So MLS teams could have an entire roster of players that are not eligible to play for the U.S. national team. My team, Houston Dynamo, had 15 players this year that are eligible to play for a team other than the U.S. Several of them have Green Cards which means the Dynamo don't need international slots for all of them.
The fact that we're 4 pages into your second thread on this topic and you don't know even this much about MLS means you really are just talking out of your ass. Not that I was taking you seriously before, but this really takes the cake. Actually AIUI the international slot rule is part of the sanctioning from the USSF. Its not a MLS-established rule. Now the fact that there's very little difference between the leadership of USSF and MLS makes that fact almost meaningless but I figure we should get the details right.
Indeed it is but it happens more than you know. Even Bernier in his prime used to be benched most of the time at the disbelief of both fans and media. Both Henry and Drogba said that Bernier was world class talent yet, benched. Jackson-Hamel barely starts even though he's been the better striker all year long over Matteo Mancosu. I used to follow Montreal Impact so I know them more than the rest. Vancouver was always the club doing the best in that area, TFC...a joke. Montreal? a comedy of mismanagement...both clubs have a history of changing managers almost on a yearly basis. I can see why the CSA gets annoyed at Canadians not playing due to mismanagement. In the Voyageurs Forum, we like to joke on how Orlando is more a Canadian club than TFC. MLS isn't the problem, those 3 are in the way they handle Canadian talents. But they are, most league's around the world are putting rules to ensure domestic players see minutes. I don't get why the CSA doing the same to the 3 Canadians clubs is such a big deal. If anything, they have an advantage over Americans club by double dipping. The CSA being more strict would just make level the playing field. I don't see why making the 3 teams starting 1 or 2 Canadians would put them at a disadventage. In 2008? Maybe, in 2018, no way. In the US Americans (domestics) Canadians (internationals) In Canada Americans (domestics...in Canada) Canadians (domestics) Montagliani was the first one to challenge this as the CSA president (now CONCACAF president. He wanted Canadians and Americans to have the same status on both side of the border. He even threaten to not renew the sanction of the 3 clubs which would ban MLS from Canada. MLS responded by created he Homegrown program for Canadians to compromise. That's awesome on MLS, they did their part, now the 3 clubs must do better. It's rather odd that with all the money these teams generates, they have been this poor at developing talents, while League 1 Ontario and the youth system does better. If those restrictions triggers changes in their academies, that's a good thing, right now, it's a joke on these parts.
That's very new for Canada my friend. Only as of 2016 and effective this year. It took Montagliani threaten to strip the 3 clubs of their sanctions. Some Canadian players granted domestic status in MLS; Generation adidas Canada created http://theprovince.com/sports/socce...tatus-in-mls-generation-adidas-canada-created to add to my point above regarding he 3 MLS and their academies. Would this below be necessary if the 3 MLS academies were producing great players? "It was also revealed that a joint taskforce between Canada Soccer, MLS, and the three Canadian MLS clubs, will work together on youth development initiatives."
Never hid my disinterest in MLS and it's complex rules. That's not only me saying that but media finds MLS rules rather complex. I used to be a huge Montreal Impact fan, but I was never a fan of the league...which unfortunately is the reality for most Canadians
The media and fans always think they know better who should get playing time than the coaches and professionals that actually run the teams. There's nothing special in that regard when it comes to MLS teams based in Canada. I know plenty of leagues around the world have rules that limit the number of foreign players. Are there actually any leagues that require teams to start a certain number of domestic players? In any event, my point was that it would likely be illegal under US law for the USSF or MLS to impose such a rule. Generally, an employer here can't discriminate based on national origin. I would expect Canadian law to have similar restrictions. Wouldn't you have a problem with your employer arbitrarily limiting people from working on a certain project because they're not Canadian citizens? If Canadian players are good enough to start for the three Canadian MLS teams, they won't need this rule. But, as has been pointed out before, American employment law doesn't allow Canadians to be treated as domestic players. If the Canadian MLS teams don't want to treat American players as domestic, they can do so, I suppose. Well, you're completely wrong on this point. The three Canadian MLS teams have done a very good job of developing players. Of the 22 Canadian players on those teams, 15 were developed in their respective academies. Given that the oldest Canadian MLS team is 11 years old and the newest is barely 7, I'm not sure what you're complaining about.
The point of treating Canadian players developed in the academies of the three Canadian MLS teams as domestic players for purposes of the rosters of the American MLS teams is to make it easier for American MLS teams to sign them. This actually goes against the point you're trying to make. Efforts to make it easier for American MLS teams to sign these Canadian players suggests that the three Canadian MLS teams are doing a good job of developing players, and that American MLS teams are interested in hiring them.
I think we should agree to disagree on the domestic status between Canadians and Americans as NASL and USL have been deemed Canadians domestics. As for development of the 3 MLS academies, it's a know fact that they aren't the best at development. Developing MLS players doesn't mean that you're developing the best overall Canadian talent.
It's not a matter of difference of opinion. If NASL and USL are discriminating in favor of Canadians, they're violating American law. It's pretty straightforward: https://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/nationalorigin.cfm Who would you consider the best Canadian talent? Looking at the current roster of the Canadian men's national team, there seems to be a number of players who came up through the MLS academies, and a number of players who appear to be dual citizens, based on where they played as youths. Who are all these great Canadian talents being developed, in Canada, by non-MLS youth systems?
The best (those making a difference for the national team), who played youth level in Canada outside of the MLS academies currently on the squad. Atiba Hutchison (Besiktas)- from Brampton Braves & North Scarborough (Toronto) Soccer Club Cyle Larin (Orlando) - from Sigma FC, Mississauga Alphonso Davies (Vancouver Whitecaps) - Edmonton Strikers & Internationals Manjrekar James (Vasas) - North York Hearts-Azzuri (Toronto) & Sigma FC, (Mississauga) Sam Adekugbe (IFK Goteborg) - Calgary Foothills & Vancouver Whitecaps (still very green though) These difference makers on the team either played their youth football in South America (Cavallini) or Europe (Piette, Petrasso, Hoillett). Scott Arfield was born in Scotland. The best MLS academy graduates I'd call a difference maker is Anthony Jackson-Hamel. He's #3 behind Cavallini and Larin as a striker. Best prospect? Liam Millar (Liverpool U18), played his youth football in Mississauga before moving to England. North Mississauga soccer grad signs with Liverpool https://www.mississauga.com/sports-story/6881897-north-mississauga-soccer-grad-signs-with-liverpool/ "As a club that helped developed Millar since he was 12, North Mississauga has received a solidarity payment of roughly $30,000 from Liverpool." “We’re going to use it as a landmark. We had Doneil going to West Ham too, so that’s two players in the last three to four years going on to an English Premiership club. It speaks volumes.” It's fascinating that youth clubs with a fraction of the resources of the 3 MLS clubs can develop these type of players but our 3 clubs can't. You might not know this, but in these parts, we know that MLS Academies results are nothing to brag about. The rest of the MLS players on the national team aren't difference makers and aren't getting consistent minutes at club level. Canada's problem was always depth and that depth coming from MLS isn't enough and aren't getting enough minutes to improve. The hope is CPL will provide more depth to the overall pool and get players the minutes they need to improve.
I think you're going to find that the Canadian players who end up playing in the CPL aren't really going to make much difference for your national team, in the long term. What we've seen in the US is that as the MLS academies have developed, the best prospects end up there. There will always be exceptions, of course, but that's been the trend here, and there's no reason to think that Canada will be any difference. I'm just not understanding why the CSA would want to have a combative relationship with the three Canadian MLS teams. Before Toronto FC, Canadian soccer was a wasteland. The USSF has historically had a very positive relationship with MLS.
Benito Floro gave comments before his firing by the CSA. He said that talent wasn't the issue, but they lack minutes at club level. He was more specifically talking about the depth players who don't see regular minutes. He gave specifics regarding ball possession and set pieces and how players aren't used to be pressured the way they are in international games. Also, he pointed out that their are stuff that needs to be mastered at club level and that it wasn't the time to teach those during call ups. He pointed out that having no national league was a huge handicap. Let's not be naive, CPL will improve the status quo. 3 clubs for an entire nation is insufficient. To give you some context: https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...eg-dyke-homegrown-talent-world-cup-2022-qatar "If we want to maintain a national side capable of competing against the world’s best, we need change. The FA exists to protect and promote the interests of English football at all levels. That makes this problem our problem, and we take our role very seriously." Why should the CSA act any differently? Their mandate is the same as the FA and if something's wrong with the 3 clubs, it's their job to raise the issue and address it. MLS has been in Canada for 10 years and there has been no results. Status quo doesn't work, makes sense to implement changes. The goal is to make to qualify and compete in the World Cup & tournaments, not to just entertaining 3 cities and make those clubs richer. A good national team is good for everyone including MLS.
DISCLAIMER: I haven't read this thread beyond the OP. The CSA will eventually claw back the Canadian teams from the lower-tier leagues, but they will either reach an agreement or turn a blind eye to the MLS franchises in perpetuity. There's too much money at stake for the Canadian MLS clubs, the owners have a ton of power in Canada (especially MLSE), the CSA would get drowned in litigation from the teams, players and probably the league office (whether they are right or not), and the CSA wants the exposure for Canadian soccer than having teams in MLS does and will provide them. They also want the development resources that these clubs have, for helping create the next generation of Canadian soccer players, so they won't want to create a situation where the Canadian MLS clubs are essentially unsanctioned by the CSA. They'll want to work with them. There's a zero percent chance that Vancouver, Montreal or Toronto ever leave MLS for a Canadian top league, even if it means a bad breakup with the CSA 20 years from now.
I think that if CSA tried to exert too much pressure over the three MLS teams, the most likely scenario would be some sort of coup to get rid of CSA's leadership. Going to war against a Canadian sports institution like MLSE, one of the richest men in Canada, and an ownership group made up mostly of savvy tech guys seems like an act of suicide. As far as I can tell, CSA has been pretty useless and incompetent for, well, forever. It's tough to take them seriously if they're trying to claim that the three MLS teams are what's wrong with the development of Canadian soccer players.