I'd question Messi as #1 since he will be 33.5 years old when the 2020s start. Maybe the HGH maestro has the eternal youth, who knows. Ten times breezing past defenders at the age of 32 is physically impressive for sure. I'm somewhat reserved about so many defensive players and midfielders high up, and also three of my compatriots there. Previous decades have shown dutch players will not receive those plaudits by the internet brigade, regardless of how many championships or (tournament, CL) topscorer titles you win, or even topping the CL assists chart (RvN etc.). It also depends on what creative talent will emerge. So far I'd say this. De Jong: I never doubted he'd do well and has his added value. I can understand Arthur has shone just as much, but Arthur is also less concerned with the defensive and transitional aspects. He has only 11 caps but already scored or assisted goals against France, Germany and Peru (the first two in competitive games). De Ligt: as people know, I was sceptical last season and it would be easy to say "see, I was right". The reality is though also the likes of Nesta, Desailly, Stam, Koeman, Rio Ferdinand and many more needed time to settle in. Some like Van Dijk have an immediate impact, others never do (Bonucci at Milan; Buffon at PSG). I watched the Inter game yesterday and thought other than the penalty and the scene where Lukaku dribbled past him he was okay. He plays at his less favored left side, instead on the right, needs to learn the language still. I liked Stefan de Vrij; he was one of the best players on the pitch and had two impressive dribbles, some nice shoulder drops and he didn't make mistakes (at both goals). The match commentator said: "the one who should start for orange isn't the one who plays for Juventus". Van Dijk: Liverpool is now eight points clear and with the best defense (with Allison still to join). I think he needs some rest (see here and here - please check) but can understand Klopp cannot do without his communication. van Dijk's so proactive in his communication. Called for 'MILLY!' to receive a headed pass what seemed like three seconds before the original ball came in. Probably have to be in the ground to see/hear all of what he does— Paul (@flataboveashop) October 5, 2019 There are some attackers with potential coming through. Malen, Ihattaren, Boadu, Dilrosun… If one of those do well then they might supplant one of those defensive 'stars' in due time. In general I'm reserved to see so many defenders and midfielders in a top 15. Most of the times it doesn't work like that and as a midfielder you need to be in the right place and right time too.
I see no signs of slowing down really. Even unfit he's completing double figure dribbles already and the passing will remain the best in the world. If they were to lose Valverde and he was replaced by a Ten Haag or someone closer to the Cruyffian style then I could be even more confident with that pick. I'm also relatively confident with the pick of three Dutch men and two Portuguese. Maybe the awards might not show it but in discussions like here they will be recognized. Joao Felix is the one at most risk - I just realized Atletico have only scored 7 goals!!! It will be very hard for him to stand out initially. Maybe there's too many defensive players, but I'm trying to think of attacking players who give me a degree of certainty and I'm not so happy with them replacing Van Dijk / De Ligt. I like Mane and Sancho but precedent shows Van Dijk will age better than Mane and Salah (the age gap isn't so big & the positions they play plus the unlikely hood of Mane/Salah becoming some visionary #10s as their speeds wane). MDL was good last night I thought, in the 2nd half he stepped it up and was in the end a bit better than Bonucci.
Anything can happen, but I hope that at least 2 Brazilians will be in the TOP10 in the next decade. This decade was what? Just Neymar. It was a poor decade for Brazil in terms of offensive talent. Coutinho, Jesus, Firmino, Fred, Pato (injured), Douglas Costa, Willian are OK but not a superstars like Rivaldo, Romario, R9, Kaka, Ronaldinho were once. About Brazilian names many will flop, others will settle down, the names: Talles Magno, Reinier Jesus, Gabriel Martinelli, João Pedro, Vinicius Jr, Rodrygo Goes, Pedro Guilherme + Richarlison, Everton, Gabriel Jesus, Pedrinho and perhaps between 2020-2025 still the ones like Neymar, Douglas Costa, Firmino and Coutinho. Of the players I've been following this year, I'd like to point out Martinelli. He played very well the Copa São Paulo de Juniores and then he was top player in the sum of (Goals + Big chances created per 90) and also the top dribbler per 90 in the São Paulo state league (minimum 7 apps), all playing for a fourth national division side, Ituano. Ituano scored 19 Goals this season, last season that was 13. This year Ituano also progressed to the Quarterfinals. And so far he has done well against Forest and Liege for Arsenal. In the Liege match (Liege is ranked as ~100º in the Elo ratings), he had 2.8 NPxG + xA (2 G, 1 Assist) that is a lot for a 18 year old player and even for consolidated players (see Understat) Gabriel Martinelli vs Standard Liège:7 Shots, 3 on target, 3 big chances, 2 goals, 1.6 xG. 4 shot assists, 2 big chances created, 1 assist and 1.2 xG assisted. 2 dribbles, 1 foul drawn, 1 time dispossessed. He even threw in 3 tackles and 77.8% pass completion. Impressive.— Scott Willis (@scottjwillis) October 3, 2019 Gabriel Martinelli's game by numbers vs. Standard Liege:47 touches10 total duels7 shots5 chances created5 recoveries3 tackles2 take-ons2 goals1 assistOne sublime performance from the 18-year old. pic.twitter.com/4D09JIBNyQ— Squawka (@Squawka) October 3, 2019 He may be a flop who knows, but for € 6-7 million, he is a good bet in my opinion. I hope he or some other player of the next generation from a future take a further step, because Neymar I do not believe will be here for much longer, already he physically looks like another player compared with the player he was before his first serious injury in early 2018. He lost a lot of agility and fluidity. Back to the topic, Of course, Messi is strong and probably can be the best between 2020-2025, his legs remain very young for his age, strange that a physically natural-gifted like Cristiano has aging much earlier (signs since his 11/12 season for me actually). But after 2025 I expect new players to take over the scene, Mbappe is the best candidate I think.
About João Felix to me he is so technically gifted that he simply can't be a flop. He is failing to make an impact at this beginning that's true, but let's give him time and than we can see what he can really do.
The best thing i like about him is not technique per se, because i think they were better technicians at his age. Isco comes to mind, but his vision and idea of football. The spaces and plays he sees before they even happen and ruthlessness and speed with which he executes is beautiful. He also has audacity to try and lose posession. With that kind of mentality and talent only the sky is the limit i say.
But a less-athletic-than-peak Ronaldo is still more athletic than 99% of footballers, and even now in his 30s, his athleticism remains a competitive advantage, if not so big an advantage anymore.
Messi's legs looks a lot younger and fresh compared to Cristiano's legs. 99%? lol not really. Maybe he jumps higher than 90-95% of footballers and that's about it. He was not a beast he used to be, he lost a lot of acceleration, agility, balance, strenght, power etc. Messi that is still more agile and with more acceleration than 99+% of footballers. No surprise that he is dribbling 10 players with a high success rate each match this early season.
Fine, 99% may be an exaggeration. Post-2014 Ronaldo, which is post-physical-peak Ronaldo was still one of the supreme athlete in world football. Very few players could match his combination of speed, power, agility, jumping, and balance. Even now, way into his 30s already, he is no longer the physical specimen he once was, and he can no longer dominate physically, but as a physical package, he is still better than vast majority. Even now, his athleticism remains a competitive advantage for him, but no longer a significant one. Yes, Messi's agility is still at a high level (not as high as before, but 80-90% of young Messi is still a level of agility very few footballers could ever match) but I wouldn't say it's some unreachable level like he was at a young age. He's lost stamina and pace. I see a player now who is still very agile, but his dribbling relies much less on physical advantage and more on technique and intelligence. Compared the say pre-2010 Messi who had a GOAT-tier athleticism specifically for dribbling.
99% is not 'may be', it is exaggeration. And it is not post-2014 but post-2011 for me, in 2011/2012 season he wasn't really as dominant physically as 2010-2011 or before imo. Maybe he is above average now, and yes he maintened most of jumping hability and top speed but agilty is the first attribute that declines while aging. "Very few players could match his combination of speed, power, agility, jumping, and balance". Not really. No way, what happens is that he has the right timing of his sprints and has developed tactically, but he cannot go from defenders simply by explosion like Messi can. Cristiano plays as if he is in his mid 30s. He still fit of course. But I wouldn't be surprised if Cristiano Ronaldo retires in two years and Messi continues to dribbling past ten players per game until 2035, all natty of course.
Ronaldo lost balance more so than anything. He is stiff and obviously physically in decline. Salah could not go in the same conversation with peak Ronaldo in terms of athleticism, but he is clearly superior atm.
You're making it sound like he's some sort of Pipo Inzaghi The claim isn't that he can't dribble anywhere near Messi level. The claim is his athleticism is still superior to most footballers, and that it still gives him a competitive edge. I saw it last season when I watched him play for Juventus. It was clear to me that he still relied on his athleticism, and that it still gave him a competitive edge.
Also this according the daily newpaper LANCE! (https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lance!) Martinelli was the best player of the group stage with 6.96 rating (http://blogs.lance.com.br/blogdalancetv/confira-selecao-lance-da-primeira-fase-do-paulistao-2019/) and ended as the second best player just behind Derlis Gonzalés from Santos (https://www.lance.com.br/futebol-na...tos-dominam-selecao-lance-paulistao-veja.html) when he failed to make a impact against São Paulo in the KO stage. São Paulo, Palmeiras, Santos and Corinthians are top teams at thier peak in Brazil in fact (2-5º https://www.sofascore.com/pt/torneio/futebol/brazil/brasileiro-serie-a/325 in the 2019 Brazilian first division _________________________________________________________________________ Rodrygo first goal at Real Madrid: This guy's touches are already elite imo and his general technique and football IQ are superior compared to Neymar in similar ages, my opinion. But, he doesn't have the same audacity and agility/acceleration/balance of Neymar however. If he can improve in these aspects he will be a very good player. ___________________________________________________________________________ In Argentina they are talking about this guy, Thiago Almada: a skilled attacking midfielder with a look to pass and with goalscoring ability.
Martin Ødegaard vs Spain45 passes90% pass accuracy4/4 dribbles won4 key passes3/3 accurate long balls1 tackle won1 interception1 aerial wonTop performance against a top team from a top player. 🇳🇴 pic.twitter.com/ToEHhMc6HV— Football Talent Scout - Jacek Kulig (@FTalentScout) October 12, 2019 And Sergio Ramos had again a difficult day Tampoco cometamos el error de pensar que el nivel de Ramos es el que ha mostrado hoy. Se puede ser uno de los tres mejores centrales del mundo (para mí lo es) y también se puede hacer un mal partido. Os encantan los extremos. https://t.co/USmrkw3UfS— MisterChip (Alexis) (@2010MisterChip) October 13, 2019 Hola, Francisco. Sergio Ramos no ha jugado bien hoy. Ha cometido varios errores y ha perdido balones en situaciones comprometidas para su equipo. Las coberturas de Albiol han evitado que dichos errores acabaran en gol. Eso es lo que ha pasado. Y mi trabajo consiste en contarlo. https://t.co/Ek8h0iaaIS— MisterChip (Alexis) (@2010MisterChip) October 13, 2019
Yeah sorry, I kind of forgot about him indeed. He looked very good on the highlights vs the under 23 team of Portugal for sure! (who also had a fairly talented team). The assist and the goal was of a high quality. As always it is very hard to say how those things play out, so for now I'd mention the ones who have already shown it against (multiple) top class opponents. That is the best bet. Thus Mbappe is a strong bet and of our own country someone like Malen is the best pick so far. It is also hard to predict what the perception will be. Sure, Frenkie de Jong is of great class (really great outward bending through ball too vs Belarus yesterday), and has too many qualities to not be a success, but also in his case it's hard to see how it will play out. Take an Arturo Vidal of the past decade or Edgar Davids previously. They had many (effective) skills, press-resistant, with defensive capabilities (like De Jong) and many accomplishments too (many semi finals, many finals, many league titles) but are they seen as top 10 of their generation? It's hard. For me personally Arturo Vidal is for a variety of reasons a strong choice for a 2010s XI but the consensus will not gravitate towards this direction. It is positive thing for sure FJD has so far - even if he's not a frequent creator - goals and assists against PSV (in 2017-18), Feyenoord, Germany, Peru, France and Valencia (for the opening two goals) in competitive important matches. If he has also that then the style has real substance as well. edit: and has some through ball pre-assists vs the good/great teams too... Yesterday he made a big mistake though by not following his man; he saw him and looked multiple times over his shoulder but thought 'nah the defense will cope with it'. Wrong. Sign of complacency.
@feyenoordsoccerfan Articles like this with claimed 'facts' on distance run etc. https://as.com/futbol/2019/10/12/primera/1570864441_466536.html
Re: Stengs. I've heard/read he looked on the slow side in his teenager years but he's born 18 December while the cut off day was 1 January in his time/region/cohort. So it wouldn't be surprising at all if he comes on his own when he enters his twenties now. It was a question mark too ofc whether he'd recover from his horror injury but apparently he's on his way to do so (what do you think? you might answer on your thread if you like). Van Dijk is born in July when the cut off day was 1 September (until 2000 it was 1 September and he entered a football team before that day), which has been one of the contributing factors in that was sometimes-and-sometimes-not selected for the underage orange selections (with trainers and coaches aware of not overusing him - we all know the examples of teenage wonders who play 40+ games at the age of 17 - the productive VDV for example - and are then burned out later on, especially if they are not the 100% model professional). So clearly this is another thing to keep in mind: there might be another Joao Felix, maybe not, who is just a relative late bloomer. For Andrea Pirlo or Zidane this applies too - evidently born very late in their cohort and established themselves as starter past the age of 23. Meanwhile, a Maradona or Pele are pretty much born at the 'perfect' date. The examples of players who were strong players regardless of the cut off day at the age of 17 (Vanenburg, Seedorf - to pick two examples with widely different physical strengths but with good games against top class opposition) exist too of course, but it is proven again and again the cut off day is a very significant factor.
Yeah, that was my worry too. I watched him going up like a rocket in his first real pro matches and was thrilled by what I saw. So when he was cut short because of his injury it was a long wait to see how he would return. So it was a big relief to see him grow back to the player that excited me and it's such a shame his development has stalled for that injury time. But I'm very happy his agility and technical skills didnot suffer from that injury. Maybe it even made him mentally stronger on top of his skill qualities.
Yeah, one that comes in my mind is Michael Owen. I watched him rise as a sixteen yo kid at Liverpool and was a big fan of him. However the overburdening at young age with matches in my eyes contributed to him having a suboptimal longevity of a career. I wonder what the new trend in Dutch football, making players physical ready for first team play at a younger age than 10 years ago, will do to the longevity of the current youngsters.
Yes they overburdened Owen and also too hasty recoveries. See this profile: https://www.lfchistory.net/Players/Player/Profile/391 Older lists are also a reality check (FourFourtTwo 2001): http://listsoffootball.blogspot.com/2012/10/four-four-two-top-100-talents-2001.html Now, it looks absurd here Heitinga is placed ahead of his countrymen but he injured his knee shortly after and it never healed. He played still a World Cup final (somewhat harshly sent off there for a very light touch) and was Everton player of the year ahead of a Leighton Baines, Fellaini, Saha, Cahill, Phil Neville, Howard, Pienaar or Arteta. A few percentages more or less can make a huge difference for someone's peak level or career. Also noticeable is the low ranking of Kaka at the bottom, while he is one of the older players on the list and others of his continent are (as usual) placed high. Some of those high up never achieved anything of note (semi final, final etc.). World Soccer 2007 top 50 talents Glaring is Aissatti ranked #2 - while Fellaini became well overtaken by others of his generation - but by that point Aissatti had played really well against Milan and against Pirlo in a tactically demanding role. It is no myth he outplayed the Milan midfield that day aged 17. Maybe overburdened as well? Your idea? In general I'm against the tendency to hype up players (what we especially see with South Americans; but also instances as Joe Cole or Wayne Rooney) before they have played a single good match against a high level opponent. The under-21 World Cup or whatever just doesn't count.
I actually think there's a double edged sword with players that young in high profile status. They're both busy maturing physically, but also mentally. So when they get in this high profile mode their natural development gets stunned by the physical and mental stress going along with the important roles they have to play. That makes me worry about the current trend, especially at Ajax, to turbo charge development of youth players to get them ready as fast as possible. I fear for the playing longevity of the current generation.
The root for thgis trend lies with the big money clubs. 20-25 years ago they bought our mature players, thus giving the young players a chance to gradually fit into the first teams. Then they started buying our players at ever dropping ages. This caused the chain reaction in order to keep a first team afloat the talents had to come through faster too. In the end it will result in the big money clubs paying ever more for less longevity if this continues.