The Official Shea Salinas thread

Shea Sucks!!!

 

Shea is way better than you think.

I'm not saying he's a world beater, but he's a pretty good MLS player. Also, we need for Shea to be good, so no more whining.

GO QUAKES!!
GO SHEA!!
Fire Frank!!

- Mark

 

His set piece kicks were pretty damn good in the second half of the Houston game. I hope that keeps up.

 

His end product with the ball is pretty bad. Either a bad pass, stripped possession or a bad shot. I think his only significant ball possessions in the first 2 games were his assist to wondo and the shot he took to the far post against Houston.
He's a speedy good player but just needs to work on his end product.

 

I wish there was time for him to work on it, but there just isn't. It's far too late in his career for him to be learning how to lay off a pass to a teammate in the box. He's not nearly as young as some of us like to think he is. So far, aside from his pass to Wondo in the opening game, I am seeing the same thing we saw from him the first time around. Some speed, some dribbling into two or three guys, and constant losses of possession in the final third.

 

and some nice goals to the near post

 

I thought he was one of the bright spots in today's TFC game

 

As I posted in the other thread, he does some really good things and he had two nice shots on goal against TFC (including his goal). But he also turns the ball over too easily, too often. And I don't think he's been getting any better at this - here's his stats over the first 3 games for passing, showing Passes completed successfully, Passes unsuccessful, and # times he lost the ball before passing by getting tackled. It's the third thing that bothers me most with him - getting tackled and losing possession. He just does that far too often, and most of the time it's his fault for just dribbling or holding the ball too long and not making a decisive pass.

vs New England: 27 successful passes 7 unsuccessful, 13 tackled and lost possession
vs Houston: 23 successful passes, 20 unsuccessful, 21 tackled and lost possession
@ Toronto: 17 successful passes, 9 unsuccessful, 14 tacled and lost possession


With his speed and workrate, he may win back the ball and earn more possessions, so I can deal with him giving it away slightly more than normal. But I'd much rather that it was because he was trying to make a creative pass or beat someone off the dribble down the line, rather than just cutting right into the defense and turning the ball over without trying to make a pass.

 

Just a note, the "tackled and possession lost " stat includes unsuccessful passes. It's really misleading, they should change it. Busch for example had 22 "tackled and possession lost" and 22 unsuccessful passes vs Toronto. Certainly, he was not tackled 22 times.

So vs NE Shea was tackled 6 times (13 minus 7), vs Houston 1 time, and vs Toronto 5 times. 5 or 6 times is more than anyone else though. Most players have 0-2 per game ("tackled and possession lost" minus unsuccessful passes).

 

I think Salinas should get a little bit of slack on the loss of possession kinds of stats because he is pressing the issue. Dawkins is the same way; he really presses the issue and takes people on, often multiple people. This is high risk / high reward stuff. He's going to lose it more often than the other players, but at the same time, these runs that he makes are dangerous and can unlock a defense.

Dawkins is more skilled than Salinas (though not as quick), but they are similar in the way that they force the issue a bit and attack with the ball on the ground. If Salinas is going to play on the left, he ought to be able to develop a good cut inside and shoot move a la Hucks, but I haven't seen much of that yet. Don't know how much he's played on the left in his career.

 

More importantly, if he is going to play on the left he needs to be able to cross the ball with his left foot. If he can't do that all he will have is a cut inside to his right foot and therefore be predictable and easy to defend.

 

in soccer, judging a player by statistics is an extremely inaccurate way of gauging how he actually plays. in my eyes, and the eyes of most others, he was one of our most exciting and dangerous players against toronto. wingers/wide players are always going to lose the ball sometimes, it's not like shea is the only one it has ever happened to. cut the guy some slack! he scored a nice goal, what more can you ask for?

 

I don't know that I've seen it much from him, but I bet that he works on it, and is not totally useless in this regard (like Arturo on the right). I didn't see Hucks lift too many crosses from the left either but he would sometimes take it to the end line and hit low crosses across the goal mouth.

Yeah, the guy was instrumental in both wins - the steal and assist in the first match, and the goal that all but put the game away (when it was in real danger of getting away from them) in the third match.

That said, Dawkins has to get on the pitch somehow, whether it takes time from Chavez or Salinas, both of whom are playing well. Dawkins is just too good to have on sitting on the bench. There is room for all three - just need to figure out who starts and who comes off.

 

I disagree with this. Statistics, when used correctly, are the only way you can tell how well or how poorly a player is doing. Yes, there are things that get left out if the data aren't complete, but to say that that stats are an inaccurate method of determining a player's quality is misleading at best.

Also, "exciting" and "dangerous" may be nice descriptors, but I am much more interested in how effective a player is. Salinas is an exciting player, he can be dangerous, and so far this season, he has shown able to contribute more than in the past. I hope he keeps it up. But our eyes, as well as our individual prejudices are often far more misleading than data sets.

 

This is a uniquely american view. in sports like baseball, football, and basketball, stats define effectiveness. in soccer, however, not so much. zidane never had the greatest pass completion rates compared with other central players, but anyone with 2 eyes could tell how great that he was. nor did inzaghi or nedved, two of the greatest players to ever grace serie a football

statistics are far from the only way to define how effective a player is. this isn't moneyball, there is a reason that scouts actually go to games instead of just looking up statistics. the term "having an eye for talent" exists because people judge talent with their eyes, not with their notepads

 

Interesting point - are you sure about that? If so, then I would agree, that what I was reading into the rate that Shea was turning the ball over was inaccurate. As you point out, he still tends to get tackled more often than others, but as someone else pointed out, if he does that because he's trying to take guys on rather than make the safe pass, I can live with that (at least sometimes). What has bothered me most with his play is that he seems to be able to beat the first guy he takes on and even the second, but then he doesn't make a decisive pass or move with the ball and gets dispossessed while just dribbling. I do think he was better against Toronto and didn't just lose the ball on aimless dribbling, though, so hopefully he's learning.

As for the comments about whether stats do or do not tell the story, I agree they are only part of the story. Watching without looking at stats has told me that Shea turns the ball over too often, particularly in the final third. So I looked at the stats to see what they said, and they seem to support that notion.

I'm not saying he shouldn't get playing time, I've just been surprised that Frank has played him continuously while sitting down Chavez, rather than the opposite. Even though Shea has an assist and a goal, overall to me Chavez has been more dangerous when he's on the field. So if I had to pick someone to sit down or get subbed off, it would be Salinas and not Chavez. But they both have done well in the first 3 games, and have definitely brought something to the Quakes that they have not had in the past several years.

Having said that, with the way the both Salinas and Chavez defend and contribute offensively, Dawkins may have a hard time getting a starting spot. If Salinas can continue to improve his play in the final third, then he could be a major asset for the team.

 

I'm pretty sure. The unsuccessful pass and tackled and possession lost stats are usually the same, or very close, and keepers almost always have the same number in both categories. Very rarely do I see a keeper lose the ball to a tackle...no way Busch gets tackled 22 times in one game.

 

Yallop says he returned a man...He's been better than his first stint sure. But with Chavez and Dawkins I don't see him starting for too much longer. We'll see though.

 

That was a great shot, first time, at a post, not the keeper.

Nothing to hate there. I missed the game and have to go by the highlights, but looks like his corners were good too.

 

It is not a uniquely American view. Statistics are becoming more and more popular for many sports, including soccer managers across the world. The issue, as I stated before, is with data sets. The more you can quantify, the more you can understand a game. "Seeing" the players doesn't necessarily tell you anything you couldn't learn with the right data. For the most part, that data either doesn't exist or it isn't publicly available.

Now, in terms of Salinas, I would say that the majority of his plays going forward get broken up. I'm pulling that out of you know where because I don't have the numbers of passes completed in the opponents half or opponents 18 yard box to tell me what percentage of his passes are successful in attacking positions. But if I were to go on seeing alone, he is about 15, maybe 20% effective in creating shots on goal or other plays that could result in a goal. It's easy to say whatever you want when you don't have to rely on data to prove it.

That said, I'm relatively happy with Salinas and his contributions so far this season. He has proven that he is better than before. If he keeps playing like this, combining with teammates and creating goal scoring opportunities, then keep him on the field. I don't think anybody would argue with that. I think some are complaining about him (me included, but don't want to speak for anybody) because we have seen more positive contributions from Dawkins in recent history and have a better understanding of what he can and most likely will do if on the field.

 

All of this, what stats do and don't show, you'd need to collect a lot more data.

Like if a player (Cronin) makes a backpass, is it because it's his only option? or because he's spineless wimp? (Or because that's what the coach wants him to do?)

If Shea gets dispossessed going forward, is it because he's making a risky play? Doesn't have the skill to keep the ball? or because no one shows for him, so he has no one to pass to and gets closed down while waiting?

You could capture that sort of data and record it, and I bet someone does. I also bet that it would be expensive to get that data.

Shea has been playing a lot better than his detractors would have us believe. The first goal against the Hosers came after a blistering longish range shot from Shea that TFC's 'keeper had to parry way, giving up the corner that led to the goal.

So, some of us complain that Shea is too reckless, or takes risks that he's not good enough to pull off. While some of us complain that Cronin is too conservative, always making the safe rather than dangerous play. It's an interesting dichotomy.

I do expect Dawkins to start in place of Shea at some point, but it may be another week or three.

GOOOO QUAAAAAAKES!!!!!!!
Fire Frank!!

- Mark

 

Soccer is such a free flowing game that attempting to quantify passes really doesn't make that much sense. It is a uniquely american view as well. quantifying a player and his game are still no substitute for watching a game and seeing how he plays. no statistic can quantify the open space a player fills, the pressure he puts on, the passing lane he cuts off, the runs he makes(and how those open up the field), etc. Trying to base your view on a player based on statistics alone is just downright silly