The Efrain Alvarez Thread

Here's the rundown of Mexican-Americans age 23 or under with international callups. "DA" means they are a US Soccer Development Academy product. Of course most US-based players with El Tri callups are DA products, so no need to denote them.

Based in Mexico

Called up only by the US:
'96 Fernando Arce Jr.
'97 Christian Lucatero (DA)
'97 Jonathan Suarez
'98 Benny Diaz
'98 Leo Marquez
'98 Hector Montalvo (DA)
'99 Jonathan Esparza
'99 Ernesto Espinoza
'99 Brian Perez
'99 Angel Uribe
'00 Manuel Lopez Terrazas
'01 Jerry Ayon
'02 Sagir Arce
'04 Nicolas Perez Guillen

Called up only by El Tri:
'98 Ivan Gutierrez (DA)
'99 Pedro Santos
'00 Jose Adame
'01 Hector Holguin
'01 Sebastian Medina
'02 Domingo Contreras
'02 Cesar Mata
'02 Santiago Munoz

Called up by El Tri then flipped to the US:
'00 Jacobo Reyes

Called up by the US then flipped to El Tri:
'98 Abraham Romero (DA)
'98 Alex Zendejas (DA)
'99 Jonathan Gonzalez (El Tri senior team)
'99 Edwin Lara (DA)
'99 Antonio Nava (DA)
'03 Fernando Alvarez

Flipped back and forth multiple times before setting (for now) on the US:
'02 Michael Barragan


Based in the United States

Called up only by the US:
Numerous. From many places around the country, but seemingly most heavily concentrated at the academies of FC Dallas, LAG, LAFC, and Seattle Sounders.

Called up only by the US but openly wants to leave the program for El Tri:
'98 Marco Farfan

Called up only by El Tri:
'04 Donovan Palomares

Called up by El Tri then flipped to the US:
'95 Jesse Gonzalez (US senior team)
'98 Brandon Vazquez (non-DA)
'01 Gibran Rayo

Called up by the US then flipped to El Tri:
'99 Carlos Avilez
'01 Eduardo Blancas
'01 Salvador Pliego
'01 Julian Vazquez
'02 Efrain Alvarez

Called up by the US, tried out El Tri, then came back to the US:
'97 Sebastian Saucedo
'01 Julian Hinojosa
'01 Ulysses Llanez
'01 David Ochoa

Called up by El Tri, tried out the US, then came back to El Tri:
'05 Alex Alcala (non-DA)

Flipped back and forth multiple times before setting (for now) on El Tri:
'03 Ricardo Pepi

 

So USSF should be allowing 14 or 15 year olds to come and go from a camp as they please, disappearing and reappearing when they choose? Expelling him from camp is fine for that. Grown men on professional teams, making millions, have gotten fined or benched for such offenses. We need to stop acting so obsequiously towards these kids. If he is out at the first sign of discipline, then he wasn't serious about staying. I'm sure Mexico doesn't put up with crap from kids either.

 

Glad someone finally got a real explanation for what happened.

Wonder how often something like this happens. We either really f’ed up or Efrain’s a bit of a softy and jumped ship without toughing it out.

Also a possibility his parents pushed him towards Mexico, and could have already been pushing him from the get go.

 

Rahbie, I think you are making a HUGE assumption. If you have information that the coaching staff that tossed him from camp was treating Latin American kids disparately, I am ALL FOR HEARING IT. If not, I do not think we should be going there. And I brought up pros because it is relevant to note that grown adults, both men and women, much more integral to their teams (not to mention much more invested IN, BY their teams) are subjected to discipline for the same types of offenses. Ripping a team for disciplining a kid in this fashion is way off base. Are we so desperate that we will accept anything, with our tail between our legs? If we lose out on the kid, we lose out. Adults kissing the hindquarters of children rarely works out as we hope.

 

And in that thread, the author mentions he actually does not know the details. He is going on 2nd hand accounts that have left him with significant gaps in the story. The only thing he seems certain of is that curfew was broken, the kid was sent home, and the parents were angry. Much of the rest he seems to be hedging on.

 

Some people want them to have full spots on the National Team once they show any talent at U-15 level.

Our program should not be bullied by players who don't actually want to play for us. USSF is not well run, but I think they receive too much criticism over dual-nationals.

 

Where's the evidence that our program treats Latino players poorly?

By my rough count, there are 13 (of 20) on the most recent U-17 roster. What about those players? Why do all of them keep accepting call ups if they are treated so poorly? We still aren't scouting Latino players well enough? Or do they not count because there are a handful of Latino players in the last five years who've switched to Mexico (a country they evidently preferred to play for), and then started badmouthing our program because of it?

These defectors are doing a very good job of conning the public. Its the easy way out of upsetting US fans for their decision to switch to Mexico. I'm sure 1 or 2 in recent years were treated poorly, but it has nothing to do with their ethnicity. This is a ridiculous narrative that feeds into the hand of the defectors. They know exactly how to manipulate this issue. I don't know why anyone would be thinking about the NT in terms of race or ethnicity. I want the best players selected. Don't care what their background is. There will be oversight's and some players will be treated poorly from time to time. Its not a well run federation, but to say a defector leaving showcases bad Latino treatment is absurd.

 

I've given this a lot of thought and I tend to agree with you. It's not all that simple. I do believe that the USSF can do a much better job of connecting with Latino players, families and communities. They finally decided after all these years to send a USYNT rep to Alianza de Futbol. That doesn't reflect well on U.S. Soccer. That said, we should never be held hostage by the threat or possibility of someone bolting to another nat'l team. What's critical however, is that there be consistent lines of communication and that if a dual national needs to be reprimanded that he be treated exactly the same as another player who committed the same infraction and who was only U.S. eligible.

We don't know the details of Alvarez's departure from a USYNT camp. If it occurred at a young age, like 14 or 15, it might have been wise to contact the parents. That's hindsight, which we know is always 20-20. However, I wonder if there was any other player, not being a dual national, who committed the exact same offense, and was dismissed in exactly the same way.

But in getting back to the original idea, i.e., that no player should hold anything over the coaches I'm reminded of a high school track coach I knew. He wasn't the strictest coach, but he did believe in athletes showing up for each practice and showing up on time. A new kid showed up on the team. He was found in gym class. He was a high jumper, and had enormous potential. Without any practice he cleared a bar that was set at 6'6". Everyone was astounded, and the coach realized that he had a major talent on his hands. All the other athletes were excited that he would help the team win their conference. Problem was, this kid lacked discipline, and came to practice when he felt like it. After a few missed practices the coach called him in and explained the situation that no matter how talented he was he had to attend practice like everyone else. The kid wouldn't agree to this and the coach of course dismissed him from the team. After the rest of the team learned about this a few of the experienced and respected athletes pleaded with the coach. "Coach, he'll help us win conference, and without him we stand little chance." The coach, of course, stuck with his decision, and the high jumper was never heard from again in track. Whatever the reason is, whether an athlete wants to do his own thing, or whether his dissatisfaction with a coach's decision might lead him to consider playing for another nat'l team, we need to consider the importance of keeping the program together regardless of any other considerations.

 

Assuming the info above is true, a few thoughts:

Calling him up to the full national team at this point is preposterous. I'd be fine with letting him earn a spot on the u20s and would be actively selling that to him as a better opportunity for his career than what Mexico is offering.

Young and talented players often have egos so it doesn't surprise me that he might have reacted over-emotionally to being kicked out of camp for breaking curfew. Fine with the decision, assuming it was consistent with how other players were treated and that it was communicated appropriately to all relevant parties.

That said, a better run Fed would have used this as a teaching moment and framed it as "needing to work on professionalism to achieve his long term goals." Kicking a dual national that has options out of camp without discussing it with his family and advisers borders on incompetent.

Lastly, I've written before that we need one or more 'dual-national outreach' directors that would have credibility in the homes of these types of players. Job would be to assist coaches with staying in constant contact with the dual national cohort of top prospects, their parents and agents. They would also assist with articulating and actually creating a better path forward for these players to achieve their goals.

 

Reading between the lines of what they've said recently, I think both Alvarez and Gonzalez (not just Alvarez) simply preferred to represent Mexico if Mexico ever wanted them, and although the US could have handled some things better, it wouldn't have really changed the outcome. What would have changed the outcome is a lack of interest by El Tri.

At least in 2018, it seems the USSF has done a good job of Mexican-Americans this year. There are many Latinos integrated into USYNTs who are certainly good enough to fit in somewhere in Mexico YNTs. We know they ventured onto Mexican soil and recruited Michael Barragan, Sagir Arce, and Manuel Terrazas, the latter two of who were among the top Liga MX youth scorers. They apparently kept in touch with Julian Hinojosa and Gibran Rayo when they were with Mexico YNTs, and called them in when Mexico lost interest. We know that they finally have a scout observing and talking to players at the Sueno Alianza event going on. Most (all?) of the Mexican-Americans currently in the Mexico program simply prefer Mexico and would not be recruitable short of receiving a possibly unwarranted callup above their normal age level, and maybe that still wouldn't work either.

As for other countries, this year they recruited Maloney, Kelman, Jimenez, Carmona, and a couple more England-based kids. Last year, it was Dest and Otasowie. Perry seems to be going with us over Sweden. They recruited Vicente Reyes after he received a Chile YNT callup, they unearthed a kid playing in France, we know they have contacted the kid from Real Madrid and the new kid playing for Internacional, they somehow convinced Balogun to try out for a camp, and they did contact Siebatcheu (who doesn't want to play for the US as long as he has France hopes). They lost Omidiji, but he simply preferred Nigeria, and it was reported the US called him up fourteen times but he rejected all of them. Brian Sciaretta said the USSF is even hiring consultants in countries to track these prospects down.

The USSF still has much to improve, but a lot of good work has been done recently in regards to dual-nats.

 

You seriously consider this a good thing? The reason we don't have more Clint Dempseys is because instead of trying to find and develop them, we're spending our resources on activities like scouring northern Europe for anyone with a US passport. In a country with our population, that shouldn't be necessary.

Also, please stop parroting the party line that guys who opt out "simply preferred elsewhere" and guys who opt in were "great recruiting." The USSF's track record doesn't deserve that.

 

I know less than most about this but the one thing that really stands out to me is the bolded portion. I KNOW that they were told, it's just a matter of how and when. They obviously didn't just say to Alvarez:"you broke curfew, get out of camp." So it probably went more like this: "you broke curfew, so you will have to leave camp. We will call your parents so that we can arrange for you to be sent home".

This begs the question: What are they asking for? are the parents asking for input into the decision to kick him out of camp? Is that what we want? I will buy that there might not have been sufficient communication between USSF and the parents but that would have had to happen before the incident. (Parents and Alvarez knowing that he can't break curfew). Of course the flip side is that one might say that breaking a rule like curfew is a very obvious no no, shouldn't require advance warning, and being excluded from a camp is a reasonable punishment. (I'm assuming he was only kicked out of one camp and not barred from the program).

As has been pointed out, breaking curfew for a 14/15 yr old is different than it is for a senior or professional player but I would argue that it needs to be taken more seriously at the youth level. At the youth level there are multiple soccer reasons for disciplining the kid but there are also liability issues as well. I am not a lawyer but I would guess that if USSF has had a policy in the past of being lenient or especially looking the other way when a minor breaks curfew, they would be in a very difficult position if a minor broke curfew and was seriously injured or died while out partying when his parents thought USSF was taking care of their kid.

In addition to liability, it also makes me think of what Pulisic said about how our top youth players are coddled and treated special, while in Europe there are many with similar talents so they are not treated special. (I don't remember the exact quote but that is the gist of it.) Should we coddle and treat Alvarez specially?

I don't know what happened and am not defending USSF because I don't know the facts but I am saying that taking Alvarez' side at face value might not be the right approach either.

 

As a teacher in an urban school, I see this all the time. Student gets in trouble, has bad grades, doesn't get along with teacher etc "he/she is racist". Are there racist teachers? I would be stupid and lying if I said no but the simple fact is that most cases I have been aware of do not involve racism. It is an easy way out. It's like a kid saying they do badly on tests because they have test anxiety when the real reason is that they don't take notes, don't do homework, don't come for tutoring, and don't study. I'd be pretty anxious about a test too if I wasn't prepared.

When I used to coach soccer, my players often got mad at the referees calls and blamed the calls on racism. The reason this is so funny to me is that our team was 100% Latino and we would be playing against a team that was 100% Latino. The only white person on the field was the referee. (of course, sometimes there would be more than one white referee). So tell me this....who was the ref discriminating against?

 

One last thing: Who do I think he should go with? US or Mexico?

He should go with the team he has the most connection with. As a Mexican American he has ties to both countries and both national teams. At some point he has to decide what is best for him based upon what will make him happiest. Playing for a national team is obviously a plus for the professional career but it is much more than that (or at least should be). It isn't just about money. Heck, even a job/career isn't just about money. We all want to be happy. That is what he should base his decision on.

 

In fact.........................these types of threads piss me off.

Maybe I'm the only one that remembers Andrew Oliver, then star of the 2011 U17 team, being kicked out of Bradenton for breaking the rules. White kid from Indiana.

Has nothing to do with ethnicity.

There are team rules. You break the rules, there are consequences. It doesn't mean you're kicked off of the squad forever. It means that camp you're kicked out. Jeeeeeeeeeeeeeesus. So yes, I guess a consequence is that his commitment to the US program was so flimsy that he went running off to Mexico. OK. What am I supposed to do with that information?

That guy in the twitter feed just went on a rant without knowing the facts. He admits he doesn't know the facts. I don't know the facts. So why is he automatically going down the angle with race? Are we supposed to coddle the dual-nationals just to keep them from leaving the program?

 

USSF is not well-run, as I said. It shows their incompetence that they missed the Alianza tournament in previous years. Their incompetence doesn't stop there, which is why we shouldn't be assuming anything untoward. They still haven't hired a U-17 coach, a U-23 coach or a NT coach. I completely expect them to have blunders, but I think that we shouldn't be thinking it has anything to do with any specific ethnicity. I see some people say this, including media types, and it just sounds like a conspiracy theory.

Everything Herculez Gomez was saying in the aftermath of the Gonzalez situation sounding like he was being fed info from Gonzalez's camp. We should be trying to analyze the biases here of who is saying what. It shouldn't just be believe anything we hear. Lets say Efrain Alvarez was a big US fan and wanted to play for the USA. Would he be switching to Mexico for being disciplined? Isaac Angking was disciplined by being kicked out of Bradenton. I don't know exactly if he was eligible for other countries, but he didn't defect. Alvarez did. We shouldn't assume ethnic discrimination, unless we have concrete evidence it happened.

 

I don't want to make this into a larger sociopolitical discussion, but there's certainly racism and discrimination in our society, and some of it is against Latino's. Soccer though? I think this is probably the area of our society where its least present. As I mentioned, 13 of 20 on the most recent U-17 roster were Latino players. We have Latino YNT coaches, the federation president is Latino, we have many Latino players on our NT.

If a Latino player is uncomfortable in the US set-up and believe that they don't fit in because they are Latino, they have every right to switch to another program. I'm sure some have done that in the past. Some German-Americans have probably done the same thing. Maybe an English-American or two. I don't think we should be changing anything specifically for these players. The overwhelming percentage of Latino USMNT/USYNT players seem to enjoy our set-up. We have a very diverse NT/YNT set-up. With that diversity comes a situation where every player interacts with different races, ethnicities, backgrounds. All players are put in that situation. They should all be expected to adapt to the multi-cultural NT. If they can't, they should play for another NT.

 

I also know a player that was at that camp. He witnessed the event. It was much more serious than missing curfew. Efra was involved in a serious physical altercation with another US player. That player was also sent home, and was not called into the several camps that followed.

 

The (alleged) plot thickens.