The coach's "System"

Discussion in 'Youth & HS Soccer' started by rhrh, Apr 14, 2013.

  1. rhrh

    rhrh Member

    Mar 5, 2010
    Club:
    AC Milan
    My son does rather well on his team (he is the goal and assist leader), but is disappointed with his playing time to the point of depression. Another coach in the club told him "you don't fit into his system" referring to my son's coach's system.

    Is there any solution to this, or is a new team a better idea? He has talked to his coach, who continually praises him about his play and treats him very well - except that he always gets the least time and sometimes is taken out after 10 minutes - even when he clearly is contributing. The coach is very quiet, to the point that he says virtually nothing on the sidelines. My son also tried to get time at another position, but after one five-minute stint at midfield, the coach refused to play him at the other position again. And in those five minutes, he started two scoring chances from midfield, one where the forward missed an open net. Also, there are as few as two or three subs often, so it is not like there are six subs so playing time is at a premium.

    Tryouts are coming up, and he is wondering if he should ask to try out for one of the other team's in his age group, or just not attend. At this point, if his playing time decreased because of a perceived lack of dedication, he wouldn't care. Any advice would be appreciated - we'd like to give the team a chance but it seems foolish to stay where your contributions are not wanted.
     
  2. bulge-in-the-net

    bulge-in-the-net New Member

    Aug 31, 2009
    My son has felt this pain. He is a very skilled, quick but not super fast after the first 10 yards, late bloomer. Voice not changed until he was 15. Smallest kid on the field until 16. He was the kid everyone said was "fun to watch" as he juked and jived through defenders and often laid off the ball at the box for a goal. He was on a top team in the state as a U13 when he wasn't even 5 feet tall. New coach and new tryouts and the team is now full of post pubescent physiological 16 year olds to his physiological 11. Still would be ok if the team kept the same style of play (mix of brazilian flare and possession). But the new coach sees all the monsters he has and doesn't see a role for a maestro in the midfield. The center mids are now both holding mids, essentially there to win 50-50 balls and get it to the man children up top. Son now sees a few minutes each half as an outside midfielder. He is losing confidence as he is told to pass immediately not even allowed any creativity in the attacking third. Confidence goes down and no more "fun to watch". Spoke to coach about what he could work on and the only response was, he will be a great player some day, but he's too small now. You just have to be patient.

    He started tearing up after even training sessions so we moved him over his protests. Luckily we lived in an area with options. We had seen several teams pay a style that seemed to fit with my son's. I called a coach, spoke to him, and after one training session my son was offered a spot. Over the next 2 games he was starting and played about 2/3-3/4 of every game at attacking midfield. He was very happy with the change and thanked me for making the decision for him.

    There are other coaches/ teams that will appreciate what your son has to offer. Do not let him lose his mojo. Let's face it, playtime is a reflection of the respect a coach is giving the player. Your son is feeling disrespected despite his contributions and you both belief that this is unfair. If he is looking at playing in college, he will need to be on the field to make an impression. Look for another team for him as most coaches will not entertain play time discussions and there isn't anything you can do to change his perceptions. It is human nature to see only what confirms you preconceptions and ignore that which contradicts them. It will be difficult if not impossible to be able to get him to see the light.

    Good luck with this difficult and frustrating problem.
     
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  3. rhrh

    rhrh Member

    Mar 5, 2010
    Club:
    AC Milan
    Thank you, I agree with your points and maybe it is not coincidence that my son is on the small side and at 16 does not shave yet (and maybe that is also why he gets so upset - earlier in puberty than other kids). It got so bad that he wanted to quit and join the town team - guaranteed full games at center mid, but virtually no college exposure (plus really upsetting his current team and club). I think the most frustrating thing is that the previous coach of his team really liked his style of play and gave him well over 3/4 of a game, and depended on him for free kicks and corners with great results. The coach does make a difference.
    It's also getting so he missed the coaches who would scream at him, and at least tell him what they thought he was doing wrong. They would also leave him in full games if he was playing well, but that does not seem to matter to this coach.
     
  4. jeremys_dad

    jeremys_dad Member

    NYC Football Club
    Apr 29, 2007
    The Big Easy
    Club:
    Paris Saint Germain FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    If your coach can't reasonably explain why any player sets the bench so much, if that player is good, it's time for change. Sometimes it's a combination of issues why a player doesn't get out a lot. Kids that sit our clubs bench at our regional fixtures clearly aren't as good, but understand thoroughly, along with their parents, that Player Development has very little to do with winning matches.

    Our kids teams have been bitch slapped so many times that if our family didn't get that Euro styled feeling about kids games not being important over all and to be happy about his own play we would have turmoil at home. Bring it up during those five minute sessions of throwing the ball at him :)

    He's not seated unequally at scrimmages...right? That wouldn't seem fair. College showcase events outside of his league, and billed as such, your son should absolutely expect totally equal playing time. If Showcase appearance time isn't equal, you and/or that club needs a new coach. I'd discuss Showcase Event expectations with the club before they got one more nickle. ODP provides an evaluation.

    Our kid always plays against much larger, faster kids with their quicker reactions. He decided to run with this theory...that if you get rid of it one or 2 touch there's much less chance for a wrecking from an oncoming. He's learned how to keep the ball and draw fouls where/when it's worth it. Refs all call against a big guy. He just moved to a back position and currently is not benefiting from that skill set.

    Talking encourages others to talk so that there might just be that one instance someone yells "man on" for a blind side avoidance. Just that one. Aside from that it shows a maturuty as long as it's not whining for a pass all the time.

    Hustling more then the next kid and being smarter, backing up passes, being always in the canals, perfect shape positionally, every practice. Going to extra practices a year up or down once a week. Doing religiously cardio and constant touches at home. A good coach knows if they dribbled an hour every night since last practice. The home situps and pushups...crucial. Be able to demonstrate an ability to go box to box for 90 is not an easy feat. I know. I'm good for about three of them. (3 box to box runs)

    There are a lot of ways for smaller players to play big in important crucial fashions. I notice the really small kids that are good, are looking around a lot more and they seem to perform speed and direction changes a little bit easier. They all were watching a lot of games (I'm not a facebook "friend" any more so I don't know)

    If your concerns about not getting much time for exposure exist, maybe think harder about video. Perhaps make your highlight tapes at scrimmages and practices. Sounds hokey but good coaches see things we don't know are there. Perhaps taping in that relaxed atmosphere might be beneficial? Certainly wished we had videoed earlier.

    Good luck
     
  5. dcole

    dcole Member+

    May 27, 2005
    Does your son tend to look for penetrating up field movements and passes rather than looking for square balls and drop passes? I'm going to take a guess that your son plays a very direct style, whereas this coach is trying to play more of a possession style. These new age, possession style coaches are usually the ones who sit silently on the sidelines and only give vague directions to the players (like "solve the problem"). They fancy themselves Zen masters in the Barcelona style and are put off by players who do things like taking the ball to the goal and scoring. I'm being faceitous, of course, but I do think there are lots of coaches out there who simply abhor a direct style of play, even if it results in the ball being in the back of the net. I suggest that your son move on to another club that doesn't mind direct play. ( I think I'm remembering correctly that your son is like 16 or something, which is why I say get out of Dodge rather than trying to overhaul your son's entire style of play. Not enough time left on the clock for that.)
     
  6. NHRef

    NHRef Member+

    Apr 7, 2004
    Southern NH
    Ask the coach what he needs to do to improve playing time. Simple question and should be a simple answer. If not, that tells you all you need to know.
     
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  7. rhrh

    rhrh Member

    Mar 5, 2010
    Club:
    AC Milan
    No answer from that - and my son has offered to play other positions, and no dice.

    Yes, of course it should be a simple answer! My son is 16 - at an age where parents aren't supposed to talk to the coach. Yet many parents do continually talk to the coach, and the club and coach do not care (and I've seen HS players' parents talking to the HS coach about playing time etc.!). I try to do things right - if my son is unhappy, I tell him to talk to the coach and give him some guidance. To not be confrontational, to ask what he needs to do to improve playing time instead of complain about his playing time.

    I agree with the previous poster - it is a possession style team, but the problem is that my kid does both styles. He does possess and pass well, but his teammates don't pass back to him. They would much rather pass backwards or sideways than work with a striker. Possession is chiefly near the center or back towards their goalie. They constantly look like they are defending a 2-0 lead, so if there is a chance to go forward, no one is ready for it.

    We are now working on repositioning him as an attacking center midfielder in tryouts, as his passing and crossing are excellent, but they get barely used when he is a striker. This is because others do not support him, so if he passes or crosses, it would be backwards into pressure. He has been on teams where the striker, no matter who it is, is involved with the play frequently, but those teams focused on possession as well as progress.
     
  8. NHRef

    NHRef Member+

    Apr 7, 2004
    Southern NH
    If a coach can't tell a player, any player, what his weakness and strengths are, and how to raise playing time, then he's not much of a coach. Or he's afraid of a confrontation when the player/parent disagrees.
     
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  9. y.o.n.k.o

    y.o.n.k.o Member

    Jan 12, 2010
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    What does excellent crossing ability have to do with playing attacking center midfielder? If anything, your son being an excellent passer and crosser might make him more suited to play attacking wide midfielder - kind of how David Beckham used to play for Man United back in the day.

    Or the coach simply doesn't care.
     
  10. dcole

    dcole Member+

    May 27, 2005
    Which would make him "not much of a coach," right?
     
  11. dcole

    dcole Member+

    May 27, 2005
    I take this to be confirmation of my hypothesis, and it seems that your son truly doesn't fit the coach's system. Sounds to me like your son would be best suited to playing as a center forward (sometimes referred to as a #9). He wants to receive the ball and attack, either by taking the ball forward himself or by making incisive passes. (My own son is a similar style of player and finds himself in a similar situation to yours.) If the team wants to play like Barcelona, forming triangles and passing sideways or backwards more often than forwards, advancing the ball slowly and patiently rather than incisively, then a #9 center forward really doesn't fit their style. Even when Fernando Torres was playing amazing soccer, he never really fit into the Spain side. Similarly, Drogba in his prime wouldn't really have fit in with today's Barcelona.

    Lot's of youth teams are headed to a tiki-taka style that is making out-and-out center forwards obsolete. Given that your son is 16 years old and unlikely to radically change his playing style, I would recommend finding a new team that plays a system that utilizes a #9.
     
  12. y.o.n.k.o

    y.o.n.k.o Member

    Jan 12, 2010
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Not necessarily.
     
  13. dcole

    dcole Member+

    May 27, 2005
    Not sure I follow you. If a coach doesn't care enough to explain to a benched player what his strengths and weaknesses are, how could he possibly be anything other than a bad coach? What definition of "good coach" would not include anything about a concern for his players?
     
  14. y.o.n.k.o

    y.o.n.k.o Member

    Jan 12, 2010
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    The answer is: an asshole. Just because a coach doesn't care to explain, it doesn't mean he doesn't know.
     
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  15. coch3se

    coch3se New Member

    May 10, 2013
    I feel your pain, and going into next season, we are changing teams for this reason. My son is a pretty talented player, but physically immature and undersized. At 11, you can see other kids starting to get a little more muscle definition, he still looks like wee little lad. His team when we joined played possession soccer... a system that my son can thrive in. Short passes, not having to rely on all out speed to win the ball, making good through balls and crosses to get short easy goals. Somewhere in the middle of the season this all changed. Long balls and smash and run soccer are the norm now, and my sons playing time has diminished. I don't understand the change... they were winning and well on their way to being promoted to the next higher division, then they went and lost the last 5 games in a row, yet the coach still screams to kick it long, but in private conversation he insists that he is trying to teach possession soccer. So, we're moving on... and looking for a possession style team.
     
  16. JustPlayTheGame

    JustPlayTheGame New Member

    May 16, 2013
    Let me guess... your coach has his "CORE" players and he plays these players for the entire game. Am I correct that these "core" players are on the field dragging from exhaustion, but the coach doesn't take them out. Youth soccer leagues are now all about the money (most of them anyway) and they will take more players then they really want to make a team. The players who are not these core players will not play. It is that simple. Talk to the coach and if you aren't happy then it is time to move on to another league.

    Also, make sure you don't have your parent goggles on. I have met my fair share of parents who think their kid is as equal as ever other player on the team, but sadly they really are not.

    Either your coach isn't telling you the truth and your son isn't as good as the other kids he is playing or you have one of these coaches who refuse to put any other kids in the game other than the ones he wants to play. Sometimes it is as simple as that. Regardless, you should check out all your options for the upcoming tryouts.
     
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  17. rhrh

    rhrh Member

    Mar 5, 2010
    Club:
    AC Milan
    The stat sheet says that even if I have "parent goggles" on, it makes a difference when he is on the field (he is the goal leader by far, 10 vs. next player is 4 goals and my son only plays half of a game).

    Three of the four defenders and three of the four midfielders play entire games. The two strikers are rotated, basically everyone else rotates through regardless of skill at playing forward. The center defender is often red-faced and panting by early second half, but the coach ignores it. My son has played 90 minutes with no problem on previous teams, even up to 120 minutes in a playoff with no issue. The teams he is trying out for now have the players run several laps before the tryout and after the tryout, and he has no issue and is always one of the top three.
     
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  18. JustPlayTheGame

    JustPlayTheGame New Member

    May 16, 2013
    Well you just answered which one of the 3 situations that I was talking about. Your coach has his "core players" and he will not rotate these players out. As painful as it is for you to hear, there are only a few reasons why a coach would do this. Number ONE---He feels that your kid is a weaker player. Number TWO---Your kid hasn't been on the team as long as the other players who get more playing time. Number THREE---The parent of the kid sitting on the bench is causing issues. Make sure you aren't that parent on the sideline who is criticizing all the other players. When you complain of your kids playing time, don't be downing the skills of the other players and for heaven's sake... don't be doggin' on the coach! You can complain about your kids playing time without bringing anyone else into the conversation. Lastly (a very weak but not unheard of) Number FOUR---He is friends with these parents off the soccer field.

    How do I know this? Because I have hung my head many times when I heard of this same situation making good players quit the game. More importantly, I have also been in your shoes with my own kid. The number 1 thing for you to do is to make sure your kid knows that it doesn't matter how he plays out on the field, the situation will remain the same. Does that mean for your kid to slack off? Heck NO! This is his time for him to go 100% and really push himself to become even better. Train harder. You know the old saying..."It is harder to stay on top then it is to get there." If I only had a dollar for every time I have seen these core players become less skilled and lazy over the seasons, only to have those kids who were sitting the bench turn into the most valuable assets on the team. This is a lesson in life for your kid. He will meet many coaches and he may sit the bench during many more games. Three words...Prove People Wrong! I can guarantee you that if your kid remains focused, and he makes the best out of the ten minutes he is on the field, and he continues to train harder and longer-- then his time to shine will be coming and when it does he will shine longer and brighter then the kids who are playing now. I would love to tell you to talk to the coach, or talk to the DOC, but really---will it help? Most likely it will not.

    You have a choice. Stay with the team and endure this coach or move along to another league who will value your kid for the player that you say he is. Do you like the coach? Do you think he is a good coach (minus the playing time)? If you said yes...ponder staying. If you said no...everyone hates change. But sometimes CHANGE can be a good thing! Good Luck.
     
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  19. Virginian

    Virginian Member

    Sep 23, 1999
    Denver, Co
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I've been in this youth soccer game for a few years now. There are a few things I have learned.

    1. Coaches will always have their favorite players. 50/50 playing time for everyone on a competitive team is an ideal that I have yet to see successfully implemented in the different clubs we've been with. Any club that preaches this for a competitive program is just giving you lip service. (I've seen it done well with REC teams- mainly because of their volunteer parent coaches).

    2. Cycles- Playing time goes in cycles for the majority of kids. Some seasons kids are the first subbed off, other seasons they play the whole game. Kids change so much during the course of 3 years physically and mentally. Your kids may be the best player one year, and then definitely not the next. Parents need to recognize this cycle and let it happen. Don't expect your player to play 100% of the game if they aren't the best any longer.

    3. If your coach sits your son/daughter for more than a half of a game, there should absolutely be a hard and fast reason for this. If the coach can't express the reason why to your son/daughter, the coach is failing in more than one area and I, personally would consider switching teams and/or clubs.

    4. Kids need to be encouraged to communicate their questions to their coaches. This teaches them many skills they will use in their adult life. If they are unwilling to talk with their coach about their lack of playing time (or whatever), then maybe they aren't all that depressed about not playing. Maybe they are just putting on that air of depression because they think you want them to want to play the whole game. Which leads me back to the cycle thing- some kids fall in and out of love with soccer and sports, heck- everything. Some days/seasons they are more motivated than others. they are, in fact, kids.
     
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  20. dcole

    dcole Member+

    May 27, 2005
    Your proposed reasons are not an exclusive list. For example, you are leaving out the most likely one given the facts presented: the kid doesn't fit the coach's system (hence the thread title). Lots of coaches expect their players to play a certain way and don't care whether or not they are "good" or "effective." My son's current coach (and club in general) has a strong preference for "high work-rate kids." The kids who are willing to run hard all game long get the playing time, regarldess of whether they are good or effective. Kids with significantly more skill and who put the ball in the net sit because the coach rewards only one thing: effort level. Personally, I think this is faulty because work-rate is just one of many player attributes and should not be elevated above all else. But that's our "coach's system." My kid is not a high work-rate kid. He has a lot of skill, but he's just not the type to run hard all game. Sort of a Dimitar Berbatov type. So we are switching clubs.
     
  21. dcole

    dcole Member+

    May 27, 2005
    This is a great post. Everyone should read it. I offer one criticism, however. You imply in point two that coaches dole out playing time in accordance with who the best players are. They don't always do this. If they did, I would agree that you should ride out the cycle and/or understand that your kid just isn't that good. A lot of coaches are simply bad coaches, bad at running subs, vindictive, etc. If you find yourself in one of those situtations, you may well be best off finding another place to play or risk killing their love of the game.
     
  22. england66

    england66 Member+

    Jan 6, 2004
    dallas, texas
    This tells me the coach is a moron..
     
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  23. rhrh

    rhrh Member

    Mar 5, 2010
    Club:
    AC Milan
    The coach is a moron? The top DA teams in the area have the players run laps before practice. So I guess the #1 club teams in our state and the top-seeded DA teams in our area, which are often the top in the country (top boys club in the country does it) have moronic coaches. When we first saw this, we thought "HS coach tactics". Then we saw how some players trying out couldn't hack the running. It is a good way to ensure fitness.

    Whatever you want to say about it, when you have the players run laps and then practice, stamina issues stick out like a sore thumb. When you have kids sweating buckets during SSG without even showing speed or strength, that's a warning sign.

    His old coach thinks that big = stamina, but the red faces and bent over catching their breath of those kids says otherwise. He just doesn't see it.
     
  24. y.o.n.k.o

    y.o.n.k.o Member

    Jan 12, 2010
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Running laps is not fitness for soccer though. Even the top European and SA players and teams don't have their players run laps for fitness anymore. You might want to tell that to the DA coaches.

    Also I can check players' soccer stamina without having them run laps. There is this thing called "conditioned games" with the key word being "conditioned".
     
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  25. england66

    england66 Member+

    Jan 6, 2004
    dallas, texas
    Yes...the coach is a moron. I fully agree with yonko on this...running laps has NOTHING to do with the game of soccer.....NOTHING....you can 'get fit' to play this game by utilizing a soccer ball in just about every practice session.
     

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