The BigSoccer Science Thread volume 2

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by DoctorD, May 7, 2012.

  1. Naughtius Maximus

    Jul 10, 2001
    Shropshire
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Can someone explain to me what the point of the hyperloop is???

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-36307781

    I mean, haven't we already got a 'tube' like thing that can take people from one place to another, that goes at hundreds of miles an hour?

    [​IMG]

    And THEY can go to LOTS of places, not just to and from the two places this thing does... so what's the point?
     
  2. gmonn

    gmonn Member+

    Dec 8, 2005
    Explanation here: http://waitbutwhy.com/2015/06/hyperloop.html
     
  3. Naughtius Maximus

    Jul 10, 2001
    Shropshire
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    That mentions the questions about the costs and the worry about that aspect seems reasonable to me.

    You normally have to multiply these things by 2 to 3 times and, as far as I can see, it STILL only goes between a very few of points, as much as anything because of the speed.

    I can see the point of a slower and thus more versatile system that could allow different destinations but that's not what's being discussed AFAIK.

    It's an interesting idea but seems very restrictive as it's presently being discussed.

    Apart from anything do people NEED to get between those specific destinations in only 30 minutes? I mean, I can see they might like to but that's another matter.
     
  4. luftmensch

    luftmensch Member+

    .
    United States
    May 4, 2006
    Petaluma
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    40%. I'm thinking the people who got 90-100% cheated, there are more of them than the next two categories put together.

    Also got 40% on the one below that was supposedly harder.
     
  5. luftmensch

    luftmensch Member+

    .
    United States
    May 4, 2006
    Petaluma
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It would save a hell of a lot of time. Flying takes three times that long, not including boarding/security etc. Plus as is evident on the chart, flying is the least efficient energy-wise.
     
  6. luftmensch

    luftmensch Member+

    .
    United States
    May 4, 2006
    Petaluma
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It only makes sense in places like LA-SF where gazillions of people travel back and forth every day. NY-DC would be another good one. I've already been in favor of the high speed rail in California, but if this worked it would be even better.
     
  7. Naughtius Maximus

    Jul 10, 2001
    Shropshire
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Hmm... s'pose.

    I can see this sort of technology being used with more stops and, generally, slower speeds, (so you'd have a spiders web kind of arrangement with 'cars/carriages' controlled by computer, presumably), travelling on some stretches at high speed and, on other ones, slower. That would make sense.

    IOW I can see the point of the technology. I just can't see the point of it if it ONLY goes from 'A to 'B'. Apart from anything how many people will want to go to precisely those places... not many I'm thinking... so they will have to have link-ups at both ends anyway.

    I'm wondering if that's actually part of the thinking anyway? Y'know, it's a proof of concept kinda deal.
     
  8. luftmensch

    luftmensch Member+

    .
    United States
    May 4, 2006
    Petaluma
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Well, how many people want to go precisely from San Francisco to LA's airport or vice versa? According to Wikipedia (citing Bureau of Transportation), there were 3,660,000 passengers from Sep 2014-Aug 2015. So yeah, quite a few. And yes, linkups on each end of course, from rental cars to BART to shuttle services.
     
  9. Naughtius Maximus

    Jul 10, 2001
    Shropshire
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Yes, but that's extrapolating from our current technology, obviously... this whole point of this is, it's a different technology.

    What I'm saying is that, as I understand the it, the carriages can change direction through different branches, as shown on the page you linked to...

    [​IMG]

    It's also mentioned here...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperloop#Notional_routes

    Several proposed branches were also shown in the design document, including Sacramento, Anaheim, San Diego, and Las Vegas.[2]

    If that's the case then, as shown there, it should be possible for different carriages of 28 people to go to different destinations in much the same way as trains presently do.

    The thing is, that multiplies the effective use of the technology markedly. if it's simply supplementing aircraft it's usefulness is reduced and, from what I can see, in a way that's unnecessary.

    As I say, maybe they ARE thinking along these lines anyway.
     
  10. Naughtius Maximus

    Jul 10, 2001
    Shropshire
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
  11. ceezmad

    ceezmad Member+

    Mar 4, 2010
    Chicago
    Club:
    Chicago Red Stars
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The price they would have to pay would make it unprofitable.
     
  12. luftmensch

    luftmensch Member+

    .
    United States
    May 4, 2006
    Petaluma
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Is that any less true than it is for high speed rail? And this would also depend on what happens with the price of air travel in coming years.
     
  13. Naughtius Maximus

    Jul 10, 2001
    Shropshire
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Well, that's an interesting point.

    With that many passengers you'd have to pay about $166 per trip just to cover the financing charge, (based on about 6% p/a return), plus another, say, 4% p/a if it's amortised over 25 years.

    That's assuming his $6Bn figure is accurate which seems unlikely, tbh. Even if it is, his $20 per trip is a complete non-starter.

    $20 per trip with 28 people in a carriage means each carriage gives $560 per trip... that probably barely even covers the staff's wages for cleaning, security, etc. and other direct costs.

    Even if the $20 covered, say, half the direct costs, (it wouldn't!), you'd only get $10 per trip. You'd still have to multiply the number of people travelling on it by about 25-30 just to cover the rest of the finance charges, i.e. about 90 million passengers p/a or a quarter of a million people per day between just those two destinations.

    If you could add a lot more destinations and branches, of course, those figures alter considerably but then, you'd need more investment, staff, etc.

    Just looking at it in practical terms I'd suggest you'd have to charge about $200 per trip for the line as described and that would mean your losses, (because you'd still be losing money), would be manageable in the short term, whilst you add more stops and branches.
     
  14. ceezmad

    ceezmad Member+

    Mar 4, 2010
    Chicago
    Club:
    Chicago Red Stars
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Lets ignore inflation and say 200 per passanger works, Is it cheaper than flying and/or faster?

    If we have a Carbon tax it maybe.

    But then you add maintnence, safety, taxes (all government levels are going to want a taste), ect.

    It is good to have options, but unless the tax payers are willing to absorve the risk and much of the loses, I don't think this is going to happen.

    May as well build more NFL stadiums with tax payer money.
     
  15. Naughtius Maximus

    Jul 10, 2001
    Shropshire
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    I think the problem, perversely, is the speed.

    It's like flying in a sense because if you go VERY fast you have to spend a certain amount of time speeding up and slowing down. In a plane you have to spend time getting up and down so it comes to the same thing. In that sense, they're comparable.

    The other thing is they're saying the 840 passengers per hour covers the amount of people that want to travel but that rather ignores the fact that, if it's for commuting people don't generally want to arrive at 3 O'clock in the morning for work. In reality you'd have very large numbers trying to travel at peak times so you'd carry 800+ people for 3-4 hours a day and then probably half that for the other 20 hours.

    I've just checked the fare for about the same distance in europe, Frankfurt to Berlin, and it's about $100 BUT that's a line that also carries trains to/from multiple destinations AND it stops at multiple destinations OR you have to change trains during the journey. IOW it's vastly more flexible.

    If they slow it down, add more stops and routes, then it can work.

    But the idea of paying an enormous price to belt at high speed between just two places seems a bit... well, daft, tbh.
     
  16. White/Blue_since1860

    Orange14 is gay
    Jan 4, 2007
    Bum zua City
    Club:
    TSV 1860 München
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Dyvel repped this.
  17. Bootsy Collins

    Bootsy Collins Player of the Year

    Oct 18, 2004
    Capitol Hill
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
  18. White/Blue_since1860

    Orange14 is gay
    Jan 4, 2007
    Bum zua City
    Club:
    TSV 1860 München
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Nice internet on one continent. We claim this system in the name of Spai... in the name of Europe. We'll name it "Europe 2"!
     
  19. Dr. Wankler

    Dr. Wankler Member+

    May 2, 2001
    The Electric City
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    SCIENCE! And, ummm, Corporate Interests!!!

    http://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/13/w...column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news


    The sugar industry paid scientists in the 1960s to downplay the link between sugar and heart disease and promote saturated fat as the culprit instead, newly released historical documents show.
    ....
    The documents show that a trade group called the Sugar Research Foundation, known today as the Sugar Association, paid three Harvard scientists the equivalent of about $50,000 in today’s dollars to publish a 1967 review of sugar, fat and heart research. The studies used in the review were handpicked by the sugar group, and the article, which was published in the prestigious New England Journal of Medicine, minimized the link between sugar and heart health and cast aspersions on the role of saturated fat.

    The Harvard scientists and the sugar executives with whom they collaborated are no longer alive. One of the scientists who was paid by the sugar industry was D. Mark Hegsted, who went on to become the head of nutrition at the United States Department of Agriculture, where in 1977 he helped draft the forerunner to the federal government’s dietary guidelines. Another scientist was Fredrick J. Stare, the chairman of Harvard’s nutrition department.."


    But even though the influence-peddling revealed in the documents dates back nearly 50 years, the revelations are important because the debate about the relative harms of sugar and saturated fat continues today, Dr. Glantz said. For many decades health authorities encouraged Americans to improve their health by reducing their fat intake, which led many people to consume low-fat, high-sugar foods that some experts now blame for fueling the obesity crisis.

    “It was a very smart thing the sugar industry did because review papers, especially if you get them published in a very prominent journal, tend to shape the overall scientific discussion,” he said.​


    And in shaping that discussion, "fat" became the main culprit in causing heart disease, and the damage done by sugar was concealed. I'm pretty sure I've heard this before, but this is the first I'd heard of actual communications.
     
    fatbastard, Dyvel and crazypete13 repped this.
  20. White/Blue_since1860

    Orange14 is gay
    Jan 4, 2007
    Bum zua City
    Club:
    TSV 1860 München
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Planet 9?

     
    Dyvel repped this.
  21. Dyvel

    Dyvel Member+

    Jul 24, 1999
    The dog end of a day gone by
    Club:
    Leeds United AFC
    Nat'l Team:
    Ireland Republic
  22. argentine soccer fan

    Staff Member

    Jan 18, 2001
    San Francisco Bay Area
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
  23. argentine soccer fan

    Staff Member

    Jan 18, 2001
    San Francisco Bay Area
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Naughtius Maximus repped this.
  24. Dr. Wankler

    Dr. Wankler Member+

    May 2, 2001
    The Electric City
    Club:
    Chicago Fire

    This could really screw up world soccer

    "Gliese 710 will trigger an observable cometary shower with a mean density of approximately ten comets per year, lasting for three to 4 million years," wrote the authors.​

     
    Naughtius Maximus repped this.
  25. fatbastard

    fatbastard Member+

    Aug 1, 2003
    Lincoln (ish), Va
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    On the other hand, at least fans will be able to look up and see something interesting if said world soccer teams are playing for a 0-0 tie :)
     
    Dyvel and Dr. Wankler repped this.

Share This Page