The Big "Paucity of English Youth Talent" Debate!

BarryfromEastenders · Feb 15, 2011

Football League fears over plans for new youth system

The Premier League announced ambitious plans on Monday to overhaul their academy system, immediately sparking fears within the Football League that their 72 clubs could be badly damaged.

The aim of the Elite Player Performance Plan is to produce more top-quality homegrown players. The Premier League claims, quite rightly, that this would benefit not only the clubs that produce them but also the England team. Coming in the wake of England's disastrous performance at last year's World Cup that would be a welcome boost.

However, the Football League has expressed concern that 30 to 40 of its clubs could abandon their youth development schemes if the new proposals are not altered to protect the interest of lower-tier clubs.

"We want to be seen as part of the solution and not the problem," said Football League chairman Greg Clarke on Monday. "We want to support the [new plans] but not in a way that puts tens of facilities out of business."

Currently Premier League and Football League sides have either academy or centre of excellence status but under the new scheme the youth systems at all clubs will be graded across four categories.

Top of the pile will be a new hothouse style super academy that will provide intensive training to the best young talent. The 90-minute rule, which currently states that Academy players must live within one-and-a-half hour's drive of their club, will be scrapped, giving the top clubs access to the best young players in the country. They will live in residential facilities and, the theory goes, clubs will link up with local education authorities to integrate coaching into the normal school day.

Contact time with qualified coaches will treble, with the aim of reaching the optimum figure of 10,000 hours by the time that players turn 21. Under the current academy set-up that figure is around 3,760 hours. The theory is to have the best young players coached by some of the best coaches in excellent facilities from an early age.

The Premier League point to the Royal Ballet School and Yehudi Menuhin Music School as good examples of intensive learning, as well as the success of Barcelona's La Masia facility. In England the nearest current example is the link-up Championship club Watford has established with the Harefield Academy school.

The Hornets have 33 students integrated into the Harefield Academy, all of whom have 18 hours of contact time with coaches each week, as opposed to six under the current academy system. Their coaching and academic lessons are integrated into the school day. I recently visited the facility and encountered a mood of cautious optimism that it will give Watford an edge in both attracting and producing players.

The Premier League is keen to stress that the categorisation of youth systems will not be tied to a club's league standing; a League One club could have category one status. However, the cost of funding a category one system is expected to be £2.5m per annum, three times the current academy level and way beyond what is currently spent by Watford.

Category two is based broadly on the current academy model, while category three is similar to the centres of excellence at most Football League clubs and the final category is effectively a late developer safety net that picks up players from the age of 16.

The top two categories will have a minimum of 17 full-time staff and will be beyond the reach of most Football League clubs, who will have category three or four status. Most will end up in category three - and it is here that there is a major sticking point.

Under the new plans, clubs in this category will not be able to sign players until they are 12. At the moment they can sign players from the age of nine and there is a big worry that if that current level is not maintained it will leave them at a big disadvantage. By the time category three schemes start most of the good young players will have already been signed up by clubs with a category one or two system.

In his 10 months in the job Clarke has visited more than 60 Football League chairmen and has concluded that the revenue they gain from their youth investment is vital. Crewe, for example, generate an average of £1m a year from the sale of homegrown players.

"They tell me the first or second issue for them is youth development and some have told me they will not stay in business if it goes," added Clarke of his meetings with chairmen. "We are concerned that 30 to 40 clubs would give up youth development.

"Lets not cut swathes through the development ability of Football League clubs."

Tied in with the overhaul of the youth development system would be a new framework to standardise compensation paid to a lower division side when one of its homegrown players is signed by a bigger club.

Without question, the current transfer tribunal system is flawed. Different people sit on it at different times and it lacks standardisation. There are numerous examples of contentious transfers. For example, former Crystal Palace chairman Simon Jordan described the £700,000 his club received from Tottenham for John Bostock as "scandalous".

The Premier League has proposed a framework that involves lower up-front payments but significant add-on fees if a player goes on to fulfil his potential. This could involve a youngster progressing to become a first-team player or an international, with each new achievement triggering another payment. The idea is that it will help facilitate a situation where the best young players end up at the finest facilities at an early age, thus improving their chances of succeeding, but the smaller selling club also wins because it will end up handsomely recompensed if a player becomes a success.

Premier League chief Richard Scudamore is adamant that if the initial transfer fee is too high then the top sides will look abroad in search of their talent. But Clarke is insistent that if adequate compensation is not paid then clubs will not have the incentive to continue with their youth development policies - and he will press home this point when he appears before the select committee on football governance on Tuesday.

"Looking at the Deloittes figures into Premier League club accounts, the amounts on compensation are not exactly going to break the bank," said Clarke. "The £50 million Chelsea spent on Fernando Torres is equal to the cost of running all Football League youth development for a year - with £10 million spare."

Currently only Morecambe and Hereford do not have youth development programmes and the Football League is worried that figure will increase under the new proposals.

Thirteen of the 23 in the England squad that took on Denmark last week were at least in part developed by the Football League, which firmly believes that it has a central role to play in the strength of the national team.

It is important to stress that nothing is as yet set in stone. Only one formal meeting has been held between the Premier League and the Football League to discuss the overhaul. More are sure to follow.

The Premier League wants its new system implemented by the start of the 2012-13 season and Clarke is hopeful the new youth system will be "a good example of working together to benefit the national game".

The ultimate aim is to improve the standard of the England team but Clarke wants to make sure his clubs are not damaged in pursuit of that goal.
Click to expand...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/paulfletcher/2011/02/football_league_fears_over_pla.html#283800

BarryfromEastenders · Feb 15, 2011

Henry Winter: Premier League's elite plan radical overhaul of academy system to help top schoolboy talent

Leading Premier League clubs such as Manchester United, Arsenal and Chelsea want to replicate the hothouse intensity of the Royal Ballet School and Yehudi Menuhin Music School, even introducing a boarding-school system so they can work more closely with the nation’s most gifted schoolboys.

England are painfully behind other nations in youth development; Barcelona’s team of all the talents visit Arsenal on Wednesday with up to seven home-grown products, such as Xavi, Pedro and Andrés Iniesta, in their starting line-up.

“Barcelona can achieve a lot because they have four times as much money as our clubs because of individual TV selling rights and they can pool young talent nationally,” said Richard Scudamore, the Premier League’s chief executive, on Monday.

The second point is one he seeks to copy with the Premier League’s Elite Player Performance Plan, which splits clubs into four categories of excellence from the 2012-13 season. This will give leading clubs, those who qualify for category one, access to the country’s top prospects and, most significantly, trebling the time spent working on their skills.

“This is a supertanker that’s very difficult to stop now,” said Scudamore of the Premier League’s blueprint for better dream factories. “It’s a strong force going in a positive direction.”

The data demands urgent action be taken.

On average, a young player in Spain will have enjoyed 4,880 hours contact time with an elite club such as Barcelona from the ages of nine to 21. Holland and France pour even more time into coaching youngsters, 5,940 hours and 5,740 hours respectively. An English tyro will have only 3,760.

Under the FA’s Charter for Quality introduced in 1997, Premier League clubs are permitted three hours’ contact time a week with nine to 11 year-olds, those progressing through what Dennis Bergkamp calls the “golden years of learning”.

In the 12-16 age group, English contenders are limited to five hours a week while those at Bergkamp’s Ajax have 10-12. Wonder why England struggle? Do the maths.

“Our boys are disadvantaged compared to European boys, where they have full-time, well paid coaches,” said the Premier League’s head of youth, Jed Roddy. “We’ve made it very easy for managers to resource their clubs from abroad.”

The Premier League is taking inspiration from the world of music and dance. At the Menuhin music school, each budding virtuoso has 10,840 hours of contact time in their development years, three times the football figure. Pupils at the Royal Ballet receive 10,000 hours’ tuition.

The supply line to England needs improving and Roddy believes that “it could be 10 years before the benefits are fully felt”. Although talents such as Jack Wilshere are emerging, the crisis in youth development is not simply related to technical deficiencies.

Some academy directors despair at the declining fitness levels of English youth, particularly in the under-resourced state sector. Everton have even begun sending coaches into primary schools.

Premier League plans coincide with a new FA coaching strategy, focusing more on small-sided games, a philosophy that the more enlightened clubs, such as United, have long advocated. The FA will help coach the coaches at their National Football Centre at Burton, so providing the elite with more specialist, age-appropriate coaches.

Most controversially, Premier League clubs have even discussed the possibility of bridging the gap between academy and first-team by fielding teams in the Football League. However, it was deemed “too radical” by Scudamore and “offensive” by Andy Williamson, the Football League’s chief operating officer.

Overall, the Premier League’s pursuit of excellence should be applauded, but the elite body must ensure the Football League is not badly damaged by what could be deemed a land grab. Upstairs must look after downstairs.

Of the 23 England players who travelled to Copenhagen last week, 13 spent part or all of their development years at Football League clubs. Two others, Wilshere (Luton Town) and David Stockdale (York City), also benefited briefly. “There’s a big risk for England if we get cut away,” said Greg Clarke, the chairman of the Football League.

Under the new Elite Player Performance Plan, some of those nurtured at Clarke’s clubs will migrate even earlier to the elite. So compensation levels must be properly weighted to safeguard smaller clubs’ survivals. “But if the player is too expensive, there’ll be an incentive to go abroad,” warned Scudamore.

Football League fears are real. Clarke hosts a series of chairman dinners with the leading lights at his 72 clubs. “They tell me the No 1 or No 2 issue is youth development and some say they can’t stay in business if it goes,” Clarke said. “We are concerned that 30 to 40 clubs would give up youth development.”

As usual in football, the tension comes down to money. “Looking at the Deloittes figures into Premier League club accounts, the amounts [on compensation] are not exactly going to break the bank,” Clarke said. “The £50 million Chelsea spent on Fernando Torres is equal to the cost of running all Football League youth development for a year – with £10 million spare.”

Clarke also pointed to the human cost. “We mustn’t screw up kids’ lives,” Clarke said. “One minute they think they are going to be the next Wayne Rooney, the next they are being released by a Premier League club and dumped back on their council estate. Let’s develop the hell out of our kids but let’s not sacrifice them on the altar of football efficiency.”

For all the sympathy with any 16 year-old released by a Premier League club, he can still rebuild his career at one of Clarke’s clubs.

English football must accept the law of the jungle if England are to become powerful again.
Click to expand...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/fo...demy-system-to-help-top-schoolboy-talent.html

sendorange · Feb 15, 2011

Yes, this contact time is one of the biggest issues, glad to see that finally corrected. Although the contact time still needs to be good coaching, skill focussed.

zXen · Feb 15, 2011

sendorange said: ↑

Yes, this contact time is one of the biggest issues, glad to see that finally corrected. Although the contact time still needs to be good coaching, skill focussed.
Click to expand...

Exactly I don't want to see a club like Crewe get affected by this. They produce some good players that are better coached than a lot of the Premiership teams. Youngsters choose going to Crewe over Stoke for a reason.

revelationx · Feb 15, 2011

I thought the limited 'contact time' was due to legal restrictions. If the Prem Clubs introduce quotas for English eligible youngsters then this should help strengthen future English generations.

The article lamely points out how a lot of the squad from the last England match came through from smaller clubs system. That is hardly the point. Obviously the current system is going to produce the players. If they improve the system then future generations will produce better players not equal quality players. Obviously the bigger clubs are doing this to benefit themselves but England should benefit too.

BarryfromEastenders · Feb 15, 2011

revelationx said: ↑

The article lamely points out how a lot of the squad from the last England match came through from smaller clubs system. That is hardly the point. Obviously the current system is going to produce the players. If they improve the system then future generations will produce better players not equal quality players. Obviously the bigger clubs are doing this to benefit themselves but England should benefit too.
Click to expand...

Well they closed down Lilleshall with this intention and the 'bigger' clubs went on to develop almost nothing. I know they are scrapping the local rule but still. We have hoped on the bigger clubs producing talent in the past.

I'm a little wary that giving the best teams almost everything in their favour will leave us over reliant. I guess we always will be anyway.

revelationx · Feb 15, 2011

BarryfromEastenders said: ↑

Well they closed down Lilleshall with this intention and the 'bigger' clubs went on to develop almost nothing. I know they are scrapping the local rule but still. We have hoped on the bigger clubs producing talent in the past.

I'm a little wary that giving the best teams almost everything in their favour will leave us over reliant. I guess we always will be anyway.
Click to expand...

This new system is proposed by the Premier League clubs not the FA. The FA have done sweet FA in replacing Lilleshall.

The key issue is increased 'contact time' so that we have comparable coaching time with our counterparts in Holland, Spain etc.

BarryfromEastenders · Feb 15, 2011

revelationx said: ↑

This new system is proposed by the Premier League clubs not the FA. The FA have done sweet FA in replacing Lilleshall.
Click to expand...

Because the Premier League claimed their academies would do the job for them ten fold. Even Howard Wilkinson wasn't stupid enough to agree to scrap Lilleshall for nothing. He was sold a load of false promises.

revelationx · Feb 15, 2011

BarryfromEastenders said: ↑

Because the Premier League claimed their academies would do the job for them ten fold. Even Howard Wilkinson wasn't stupid enough to agree to scrap Lilleshall for nothing. He was sold a load of false promises.
Click to expand...

The problem is the limited contact time plus no English quotas imo. If they sort both of these things out then things will improve dramatically.

BarryfromEastenders · Feb 15, 2011

revelationx said: ↑

The problem is the limited contact time plus no English quotas imo. If they sort both of these things out then things will improve dramatically.
Click to expand...

I'm not denying or even arguing about that.

Is it wrong to not be at the least slightly sceptical of this though? Basically the Premiership want almost everything in their favour. Just like the Lilleshall issue where, when things go wrong it isn't the Premiership that suffers. It is the national team. The academies created very little and the Premiership didn't have to even comment on their failing academy plan because they can just buy.

The issue of contact time and quotas is not new. It could have been done 10 years ago or further back. The Premiership didn't seem to care then. I don't know why these questions aren't asked. Why not ten years ago? Why now?

zXen · Feb 15, 2011

The questions weren't asked because iirc Brooking said the FA never foresaw the academies going out and buying foreign kids to fill up their ranks .

The whole thing should have been thought out properly and they should always look at the worst possible future scenario(s). There was no Risk Assessment or anything like that done basically.

BarryfromEastenders · Feb 15, 2011

zXen said: ↑

The questions weren't asked because iirc Brooking said the FA never foresaw the academies going out and buying foreign kids to fill up their ranks .
Click to expand...

This is the thing though. This happened pretty gradually and at no phase was anything even properly discussed. They basically went along with it in hope, saw it was going in a direction of no benefit to the FA, whined a bit but did nothing for years and that was it.

There should be a report into this whole issue but it would probably only become an issue of passing the buck anyway.

zXen said: ↑

The whole thing should have been thought out properly and they should always look at the worst possible future scenario(s). There was no Risk Assessment or anything like that done basically.
Click to expand...

Exactly. The FA pretty much thought because the Premiership had money everything would be fine. There has been very little plan for years on this issue from the FA or the Premiership. I don't really think I can get over that and accept radical changes until they actually begin to show positive signs. Maybe I've been emotionally scarred

Mike10 · Feb 15, 2011

Why has it taken so long for clubs to realise residential academy's are the way forward?

Watford are getting it right with their partner school where the kids train and go to school, and then get taken home. Hopefully the other clubs are working on something similar.

Barcelona etc have been doing this for years.

BarryfromEastenders · Feb 15, 2011

I don't think the majority of clubs have really cared enough. Alot of short term planning and very little vision in so many areas.

It's insane to think that these things were not done years ago. It's hard to praise things like this now when so much time has been wasted.

Mike10 · Feb 17, 2011

http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,11833_6757058,00.html

Barcelona are to open an academy in Surrey, placing them in direct competition with Chelsea.

The Catalan giants have struck a deal which will see them set up their first training camp outside of Spain.

Barca will begin staging coaching classes for 300 hopefuls between the ages of six and 16 from April at ACS school in Cobham.
Click to expand...

BarryfromEastenders · Feb 17, 2011

That is interesting. Wonder why they have picked Surrey specifically.

The Guardian · Feb 18, 2011

Just for the record I was disappointed they way the u19s played. Not enough composure and ball retention. If giving the ball away for no reason is a crime there were a lot of criminals on show - and some shocking finishing.

A lot of top players were missing and it showed. Wickham didn't get a look in (but of course got three for Ipswich a few days later). Jack Robinson (Liverpool left back) started ahead of Garbutt - presumably because they though he was better equipped to deal with the flying German winger. But was skinned seemingly every time. They had some obviously top class other players as well.

Overall they looked at a higher level than England but the goal that made the difference could have been cleared. Thorpe (United) irritatingly tried to clear the ball with the wrong friggin' foot (as a lot do). While pundits always nit-pick when a goal is conceded they usually don't say a dicky when a player does something like this.

Anyway on the top class front you will all have seem Sterling's fabulous five in the youth cup. I've been following him since his first Victory Shield outing and he's been really coming along well even before this remarkable effort. He shouldn't be confused with "a Walcott" in that he does have a cool football brain - with the execution to go with it.

On the Rav the Chav front - Saturday would be an ideal chance for Ferggie to give him a go (with the French lad who should not be mentioned).

The Guardian · Feb 19, 2011

Mmmm. Talking about quality players just seen a little piece on Harry Kane in the Mail - I hadn't realised he'd gone on loan to the Orient in Jan - Makes the Arsenal game in the cup interesting now. Jeff Stelling hasn't got him in the starting line up though.

Morrison not even in the squad - got big youth cup games coming up againt United and Chelsea (if they get past Watford)

zXen · Feb 19, 2011

The Guardian said: ↑

Mmmm. Talking about quality players just seen a little piece on Harry Kane in the Mail - I hadn't realised he'd gone on loan to the Orient in Jan - Makes the Arsenal game in the cup interesting now. Jeff Stelling hasn't got him in the starting line up though.

Morrison not even in the squad - got big youth cup games coming up againt United and Chelsea (if they get past Watford)
Click to expand...

You can post stuff like this in the U19 section. If you read over the thread Kane has been discussed quite a lot during his loan at Orient, aswell as most things regarding Ravel Morrison.

zXen · Feb 19, 2011

Bit more information on what Barcelona are planning to do in London.

New FCB Escola campus in London

Before the end of 2011, FC Barcelona, via its FCB Escola soccer schools, will have organised a total of 5 training campuses in London, in which some 1,500 young Brits will be coached in the Barça system.

The agreements were closed this week to coincide with the game between Arsenal and Barça. Julio Albert, and Xavi Marcé were responsible for signing the deal and visiting the facilities where the campuses will take place

Easter start

At Easter, from April 18 to 22, the FCB Escola will be holding the first English campus at the ACS International School Cobham, for boys and girls aged 6 to 14.

Five campuses

Each campus will be one week long and the next ones will be held from June 20 to 24, from June 27 to July 1, and then on August 15-19 and 22-26. From April to August, the events will be billed as the FCB Camp Surrey-Anglaterra 2011 XSport Coaching.

FC Barcelona will be in charge of all of the coaching, with five FCB Escola coaches from Barcelona working alongside ten British coaches that are already versed in the Barça system. The experience should be a positive one for everybody, and there are plans to set up a new FCB Escola in London along similar lines to those that are already operative in such places as Japan, Hong Kong, Kuwait and Dubai.

Zero cost

The FCB Escola international schools do not cost the club anything, and work using the same methodology as that used by the FCB Escola in Barcelona, and always feature at least one Catalan coach. All expenses are covered by the host partner. The main aim of these schools is to provide integral training to the pupils, with social and human aspects also forming part of the scheme.
Click to expand...

http://www.fcbarcelona.com/web/english/noticies/futbol_base/temporada10-11/02/18/n110218115812.html

BarryfromEastenders · Feb 20, 2011

Wenger turning his eye to Football League for new talent

Arsene Wenger is turning to the Football League in his pursuit of new players.

For years the Arsenal manager has been accused of scouring the continent and turning his back on homegrown talent outside the Premier.

But the success of Theo Walcott, signed from then Championship side Southampton, has helped change the Gunners’ recruitment strategy.

Wenger said: “It looks more and more that there are many good young players coming out of these clubs too.

“Look at Nottingham Forest for example – they are all good young players.

“Derby too, and Ipswich who we played recently, have produced Connor Wickham.

“So there are good young players down there.

“Maybe the academy rules help them too, because teams cannot take young players from other clubs’ areas.”

Asked in the Arsenal club magazine if his club are actively scouting lower divisions, Wenger said: “We are looking inside England and not only the Champion-ship, but also League One.”
Click to expand...

http://www.mirrorfootball.co.uk/new...uture-admits-Arsene-Wenger-article702081.html

The Guardian · Feb 20, 2011

zXen said: ↑

You can post stuff like this in the U19 section. If you read over the thread Kane has been discussed quite a lot during his loan at Orient, aswell as most things regarding Ravel Morrison.
Click to expand...

I'm well aware of that. I was talking about specific rare talent.

That's what this thread is about.

zXen · Feb 20, 2011

The Guardian said: ↑

I'm well aware of that. I was talking about specific rare talent.

That's what this thread is about.
Click to expand...

If you were aware of the U19 thread you would have known Kane was on loan at Leyton Orient. I was just suggesting some of the stuff you were posting might have been better suited for the U19 thread.

But whatever, forget about it, i'm not putting a gun to your head or anything.

The Guardian · Feb 22, 2011

Miles Brasher said: ↑

What are your reasons behind that statement ?
Click to expand...

The whole point of these tournaments is to develop the elite youth players playing against different styles/systems of the best teams from other countries and learning to handle tournament football to prepare them for eventually doing the same in the seniors.

But it's a bit of a waste of time if their best players keep ducking out, we send a bunch of no-marks and they come home early with their tails between their legs. Taking a full strength side and being successful on the other hand will give them experience of success and be a foundation for when they face Jonny Foreigner with confidence in the seniors.

All other federations have to release players when told to. We are just a joke the way things are.

BarryfromEastenders · Feb 23, 2011

Wilshere is playing his 38th game of the season tonight (34 starts). He will likely end up playing 50+ games this season. He is now in Capello's plans for the Euro 2012 campaign. So picking him for the U21 tournament is not logical. He needs rest.

This isn't even comparable to the Walcott issue. Wilshere has tonight already equalled the amount of games Walcott played in the season before he went to the U21 tournament. Which Wenger didn't agree with either.