It's not my intention to unearth this topic and make it into a Maradona vs Platini story (something that was only seriously debated roughly between the years of 1983-1986 by the world press) but I find it odd that you, an individual that follows the game from that era, would dismiss the fact that not only was Platini not at his physical best in 1982 and 1986, but neither was Maradona in any World Cup. It is well-documented that Maradona arrived at Spain with an injury he picked up a few weeks before in a friendly played against Benfica: http://hemeroteca.mundodeportivo.com/preview/1982/05/28/pagina-5/1082538/pdf.html The link below addresses the concern of Maradona's injury and his presence the day before kick-off (it was a game-time decision): http://hemeroteca.mundodeportivo.com/preview/1982/06/13/pagina-5/1076449/pdf.html (Both articles are in Spanish) The WC86 situation is addressed in several of my sources. One of them in Brian Glanville's book: 'The story of the World Cup'. This is what it said: "The odd thing is that for many months, he seemed likely not to play at all. He had trouble, we were told, with the cartilage of his right knee. There were two alternatives. Either he had the operation he needed, which would put him out of the World Cup. Or he would play, and risk breaking down at any moment." The link below from the Spanish newspaper Mundo Deportivo also mentions his injury and the surgery which was put off: http://hemeroteca.mundodeportivo.com/preview/1986/05/07/pagina-30/1134898/pdf.html Brian Glanville's report, in the Spanish newspaper of Mundo Deportivo, May 1986: http://hemeroteca.mundodeportivo.com/preview/1986/05/07/pagina-31/1134899/pdf.html Obviously the 1990 WC injuries are well-known, so no need to mention them again. So my question to you: Were you unaware of this? We spoke about some of this before in the Zico thread. On one hand you had one player being hailed as the "next greatest thing" from the early age of 18 in the late 1970s, while the other was only seen as France's best prospect. As great as the Frenchman was, the media never made him out to be the destined one to carry the torch that Di Stefano, Pele and Cruyff left off. A great tournament at the Euro could only catapult the European into many people's All-Time top 10, but a great international effort by the Argentinian would elevate him into many people's greatest ever debate. This clearly has to do with the media-propaganda that was circulating since the late 1970s, and which never ceased to stop throughout the 1980s, in pursuit of the successor to Pele's throne. Anything significantly accomplished by someone that's considered by the world as the "chosen one" and the premier player in the game heading into three straight World Cups (although prior to WC86, both of these men were seen as the best), would be magnified and blown out of proportion. But this was never meant to be the case with Platini, a player whose reign, through the lens of the media, lasted for only 3-4 years, while the other guy had an entire decade acclaimed as one of the best.
Do you know when Maradona was operated? He had some troubles with right knee since the 1985 calender year. In February 1986 a newsarticle appeared which stated that a surgery would be delayed because it was not serious (place of article was Buenos Aires). Shortly before and during the tournament it was also mentioned but also downplayed a bit (I thought by himself too) although it was also mentioned that the knee was constantly monitored. Do you know when he had surgery? I also read that he suffered in the 1985-86 season literally 13 fouls per game on average. It was mentioned as well that Platini received in one season also 14 fouls per game. Do you know something about this?
As far as I'm concerned he was never operated. He played with these impediments for the rest of his career. In fact, the only NT international tournament that I can safely say he was not affected by any physical issues was the 1979 FIFA Youth World Cup. Other than that, there was something always going on. I’m not fully aware of statistical data that exists about the amount of fouls they suffered in Serie A. But I did read that Maradona was the most fouled player in the 89/90 season, according to some newspapers that I glossed over somewhere - but I can’t remember the source right now. But where did you read that?
I was aware he had physical issues before WC82 but I had the feeling he had recovered from them at the beginning of the tournament. I didn't know he had troubles before WC86, or I forgot it. Thanks for enlightening me with that. There was little publicity with that at the time if I remember. How did these physical issues affect his play during that WC ? Did they affect him as much as Platini who played under infiltration ? So you agree that medias have somewhat distorded a bit the reality of things by excessively hailing Maradona as the next Pele from his early age while at the same time they kept Platini under the radar until the moment he came to Italy ?
In a preview before the 1986WC. I also know that many players had back then knee troubles. Zico, Cerezo, Robson, Rummenigge, Blokhin, Hugo Sanchez. Those were seen as the most serious ones by the press (not Maradona although he was mentioned, as said in post above). Can you maybe also post on one day the assist stats for 1980s Serie A? You mentioned that Platini was two times assist leader (indeed, I verified 1983-1984 season) and Maradona three times. Do you have those stats? Here is the trouble with his knee also mentioned btw http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1064938/index.htm#
The Euro is a tournament that can and has been won by Denmark, Chescolovakia and Greece, because these NTs know they can win it. It is nowhere near the same caliber/relevance of the WC. Thus, the best individual performance in WC history will always be far above the best individual performance in Euro history. If Platini's Euro performance was being ranked alongside the WC, it would be top dozen but certainly outside the top five: Maradona WC86 (daylights) Garrincha WC62 Cruyff WC74 Eusebio WC66 Fifth place take pick between Rossi WC82, Kempes WC86, Pele WC58 Only then can we consider Platini at Euro84 alongside Zico WC82, Baggio, Romario, Hagi and Stoichkov WC94, Schiaffino WC50, Muller WC70 PS: James, I know we always seem to differ on this forum, but I must commend you this time for putting the Euro circle jerk in its place.
It's ok. Believe me if you're just a nonsense poster, I would not bother to make many comments. This time I agree ... and I also made a few times (before) that Platini 9goals Euro84 was great but it was equivalent to Muller WC70 (10), and Ronaldo WC02 (8). There are 2 reasons for that: 1- Like you mentioned, Euro degree of tension and difficulty is a bit lower than WC (especially before 80s) 2- Technically speaking, not just by the number (9 goals); most of Platinis goals were tap ins or results of him being so efficient/intelligent (only 2 long goals just outside the box were liek worldclass finishing) So that performance was not comparable to Maradona 86, Garrincha 62, Pele70, and Cruijff74. Pele 58 and Eusebio 66 were like a borderline case in top5. Again, Rossi 82 and Kempes 78 were "border line" to be in TOP10 best (for they did not do much in group stage)
It's also telling in regards to Platini, that the best individual performer in Euro history was only good enough for #6 at WC82 (behind Rossi, Zico, Boniek, Falcao and Giresse) and tied at #4 at WC86 (behind Maradona, Scifo, Socrates and tied with Rummeniegge). So while Platini shows to be consistently great, on average in top five at two WCs and runaway #1 at the Euro in between, he does not show the character to be best at the WC. He also was underwhelming in finals with Juventus, in the tragic day in Belgium against Liverpool a very sour win, and also did not look out of their league against Argentinos Jrs in the Intercontinental final, I thought Panza Videla was his equal (a great match though, decided on penalties). Eusebio at WC66 is usually considered top five performance at the WC, why do you not rate him so highly? From the footage I've seen, he was phenomenal and could possibly be ahead of Cruyff for #3 all-time, Portugal were shafted against England by the refereeing. Also, I think you place far too much importance in the group stage. Many players and teams start out looking like world-beaters only to implode later (Argentina at WC98 and Brazil at WC10 are two recent examples). Rossi and Kempes are certainly top ten all time, these are the only two players in history to win the WC, be WC top scorer and win the best player award.
I don't have them archived in my documents right now. In the past I utilized the video footage to come to that conclusion. But yes, perhaps I could look at the footage and post that info in another thread some day. Also, maybe Babaorum could one day create a Platini thread. That would be a nice thing to follow. Thanks for the link.
I don't know because I'm not sure of the degree of seriousness in either case. The issue in '82 affected him from the standpoint that he was sidelined and deprived from training properly for the event. And as mentioned in the Spanish article, his presence in the opening match was a game-time decision from Menotti, which clearly indicates that he was not 100%. The '86 case remains a mystery. He was supposed to have surgery but didn't. But I personally think that after this tournament his physical condition deteriorated season by season. And perhaps these ailments (among other reasons) may have expedited this physical decline. The media exaggerates many things. But you must take into account that Pele himself in 1980 proclaimed Maradona could be his successor: http://hemeroteca.mundodeportivo.com/preview/1980/05/09/pagina-8/1053080/pdf.html?search=maradona He did not mention Platini. So was Pele being too "excessive"? Or did he see something special at that time, as did most pundits around the world?
Had he not a rebound in the 1987-88 season? Anyhow, regarding the fouls, it is also mentioned online in an archive of my own country (but also read it in a preview). It is an article that was used in various publications. http://leiden.courant.nu/index.php?...f&pagina=&sort=datum+asc,krant+asc,pagina+asc Here it is also stated that refs whistled on average for 13 fouls per game in 1985-86. Platini had one season where he suffered 14 fouls per game though such stat is always tricky.
I would like but strangely enough there is no large sources concerning his years in France, certainly not large enough to do something similar to what Puck did for Cruyff. L'Equipe or France Football didn't keep their archives online and I don't have myself old newspapers.
Thanks for the link. I think he did a better job in 87/88 at taking care of his diet and sleeping better, he also seemed to have lost some weight, but he continued to have some nagging issues with injuries.
Yes they are stored in the Bibliothèque nationale de France but they're not on-line and... and I don't live in Paris to consult them
I said it before and I think baboarum has a good point with saying how Platini was immediately regarded as an elite player (in the class of Zico etc.) once he hit Italian ground and even had adaptation problems. Looking at production for his club teams in the league, in Europe and in France strengthens this idea; the ratio for France and in European competitions was equally good when he still played for French clubs (i.e. 9 goals in 16 European games before 1982; 19 goals in 36 games for Juventus). But I don't want to this discussion another time.
LOL, how do you know he had a better diet and slept better, were you his personal assistant back then?
It's mentioned in an 1988 El Grafico edition by his personal trainer, who states that his run of form is comparable to the 84/85 season, thanks to his diet and the sufficient rest that he receives.
I was looking for the magazine edition in my collection and found it. It's from February 1988, and his physical trainer, Fernando Signorini, says this: "I think he is going through his best moment since his arrival in Europe. There's another similar moment which was in 84/85... he's living an organized life, healthy and eating well. He's around 69 kilos in weight, the same as when he was 21-years-old. There's only two things he thinks about: football and his family. He gets sufficient rest, only trains 3 times per week." His manager at the time, Bianchi, said "since I've been his coach since 1985, this is the most productive I've seen of him." I also read the autobiography of Diego which also confirms this. He says he entered a clinic in Switzerland to improve his physical conditioning. He complains about not resting sufficiently in the previous years due to constant games and injuries that have required him to take pain injections. He states he has been playing with infiltrations administered for the past several years. So in October of 1987 he checked into a clinic to detoxify himself.
That and to improve his nutrition. He was put on a special diet of vegetables and fruits which enabled him to lose weight. I don't think he was messing with recreational drugs during that period in his career.
What are your thoughts about his 85/86 season? Why was it not as good as 84/85? Anyhow, thanks for confirming what I thought. At that time reports surfaced over here which showed him running around the field without a shirt, with as subscript that he is in better shape (again).
I thought staff associated with the Argentine NT at WC86 have said Maradona was using coke during the tournament.
First bold, if you noticed that some claimed Platini was not in his best form (fit) at either WC(!) Well I actually did not recall to have read any concerns about his fitness in those 2 occasions personally - unless Babaoroum or Puck can help to locate such link or news? Just like Maradona at WC90, that I knew he was not at his best fit (some minor injuries ankle or so) but he GOTTA play as he was captain and the heart of the team (just like Platini for France) Second bold and last bold LINKED together! - I did not rate teh group that high. In fact I said (many times) one shoudl put weights in each games to add points for a player's performance (so Final > Semi >quarter + G16 > group) Both Rossi and Kempes got FULL points from quarter to final but MISSING points form group stage (if compare side by side to Ronaldo 02, Jairzinho70 ...) - Having said that, group stage is less important (lower in points) but one can NOT ignore them. Look at France and Argentina in 2002, IF they could have passed the group test, they could have all chance to go to final, and should Henry or Zidane or Batistuta become the topsocer or could of won goldenball in that cup? - Now back to Muller70, Eusebio66 and Schilacci 90, they were all GREAT in thsoe WC (yes betetr than Rossi and Kempes for they scored in every games and scored important goals) but their team were NOT in the final2 but 3rd place. So their performance was a bit lower in rating (points) that's all.