My mind is hazy on it a bit but I think you mean for Barcelona and I did watch it and from vague recollection it does seem a feasible choice yes. I remember he had one CL game for PSG I was watching (or I saw highlights) and he impressed with his passing in particular but I don't even remember which game now! Some might suggest the England friendly maybe? Or a Euros game (vs Italy with the heel goal?)? I'm not really sure for him tbh though, wheras at least for CR7 the question crossed my mind before and there is Aston Villa (h) from 07/08 plus I think a Real Madrid game Carlito provided (which also slips my mind now!) so I'm a bit more decided on some options for him as compared to Ibrahimovic.
For Ibra, the performance vs Arsenal that sticks out is the one while he was at AC Milan in 2011/12 https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/5...A-Champions-League-2011-2012-AC-Milan-Arsenal I know the Guardian and Telegraph both praised his performance too.
Yes I meant that game although I understand PDG thought of the 2010 encounter (this brace was his first ever KO goals). At hindsight one can say and see that this 2012 Arsenal performance next to spectacular goals and/or performances against France, Germany and England later in the same year saved a lot of his reputation (or say it better: bumped his reputation). Which also made me think whether 'Zlatan jr.' - so to say - would receive the same high-exposure opportunities in the stratified Nations League era (and/or further reforms) to patch up things. Possibly not (but that's a different subject). (before this year, 2012, one needs to go back to 2008 and then 2004 to see goals against similar opponents)
One was, the other was a European away game. Albeit early career, his performances against Milan and Brazil showed how to open up the tightest of defenses. Still, its not as exiting and laudable as facing single marking in an open match. And on that note, what do you reckon is the best player performance against assassins?
Yeah, I'd have to track back to see which one I had in mind most tbh (if I repped just one it might be the clue though!). The Milan 1988 game in Belgrade I guess you'll mean (like I said before I think Savicevic was great in that one, including the brilliant assist finished with a flourish by Stojkovic with a volley)....or maybe even the away one for Dragan now I think about it (I did take a look at both in full I'm sure). Greatstriker made a valid observation about some of the Real Madrid challenges against Cruyff in that 73/74 game. Van Basten got some rough treatment vs W.Germany in 1988 I suppose too. It seems like Pele vs Boca Juniors in 1963 could be an option. Cruyff vs Brazil in 1974 could be in the mix. Terry Fenwick and Steve Hodge etc tried a few kicks on Maradona probably in 1986 to be fair! I guess you have some ideas yourself on that topic?
You asked me to have a go at this, but I find it very difficult to compare. In terms of peaks maybe that I'd have one of Ronaldo and Ronaldinho each in there. Say Ronaldo vs Valencia in 1997. Or one of Ronaldinho his 2005-06 games when his production was the highest (some automatically include 2004-05 too, but in overall production and performances vs top teams it was not the same imho). Maybe something to consider for yourself too. It is easier, but still difficult, to compare games by the same player. Also easier to do other observations, such as that (in my view) some compilations can give a misleading picture of players, either positive or negatively. In particular (perceived/supposed) trickster type of players. What do you think of this game for example? It is difficult to compare, also because the style of play could vary in his or other cases. As you observed, vs Arsenal in 1970 he played almost like a target man. In this case - and that is rare - it is easier to see and back up his general influence and also at times the counter-reactions it provoked (for ex. the overperformance of Ajax, followed by the forced demotion of the league in 1973, then Ajax reaching a semi final again in 1980 when he was technical manager etc.). It can be backed up by seeing the links with, and tangible improvements of, six different Ballon d'Or winners (plus contenders as Laudrup, Bergkamp, Xavi etc. - all special players with special talents/style). For the ones who care it is easier to see those - and many other - things, in a way (Laudrup, Stoichkov the best ever of their countries; Figo the best ever of mainland Portugal). Good find for Pele. Yes, it seems that it is a newly released match of him. Gave that a rep
Yeah, I think that that Cruyff display is a very good one in which he was seemingly omnipresent and played with a sort of fluent and elegent /precise urgency, while also showing a lot of the facets of his game. Also one instance of his flip/cross move although it didn't quite lead to a goal, and even a warm-up for his Phantom Goal at Barcelona with one attempt (not quite the same but similar)! And yeah, I think Ronaldo and Ronaldinho are players you'd expect to have really great games when on top form aren't they, with their peak abilities... Barcelona era Ronaldo must have some decent options, even beginning with the Super Cup game vs Atletico perhaps already, and of course including the Valencia game. Not specifically before I posted that latest list, but I did look at some of his Inter Milan Uefa Cup performances again to assess how they might compare to the great performances. I think for example he had great moments in a decisive way vs Spartak Moscow, but maybe didn't feel there was quite so much overall as from some other players in other games. The game for Real Madrid at Old Trafford is one that comes into the equation inevitably, even if past his real prime physically and perhaps in some ways technically as a follow-on. For Ronaldinho in 05/06 I'm sure there would be some calls for the games away at Real Madrid and AC Milan for example. He had some good games vs Chelsea and also other La Liga ones could be considered I'm sure.
I watched the boca game. Its quite the heroic tale. Unfortunately, I don't have many ideas on unlisted videos. However, I am contemplating a rating system, which should help ordering a list. It should contain 2 negative factors and one positive: -flaws; loss of possession, failed recovery of possession. -lack of creativity; sideways and backwards play, excluding keypasses. -gangbang bonus; being outnumbered yet bringing the ball forward, this includes scoring a longshot, or recycling possession when outnumbered, this includes saves. So to give some examples: -Shooting wide is a flaw but shooting on target without scoring is a flaw aswell. -Dribbling the ball forward and then passing it sideways is not considered as lack of creativity. But dribbling forward and passing the ball back to starting point or beyond is. -Intercepting the ball in a forward position, being outnumbered, gets gangbang bonus. Scoring a longshot without being outnumbered doesnt get gangbang bonus. Saving a 1vs1 does not get a gangbang bonus unless the final defender or goalkeeper was outnumbered. With only 3 factors, making comparissons should not be too difficult.
To give further example: Rai had 7 flaws, 3 lacks of creativity and 1 bonus (the freekick) over 5 minutes.
Interesting, I'll keep an eye on how various performances score with that system! You don't feel the Cruyff trademark flip/cross into the centre was a 'bonus' situation (I didn't re-watch just now before I ask to be honest!)? Or perhaps it would be if the cross landed on a team-mates head or at least led to a goal (like on other occasions he did it). Perhaps I'll randomly try to inspect a couple of the ones I picked to see how they score for these things, but of course feel free to double-check I'm doing it right if I do! If we're using Youtube videos we'll also have to hope indeed that every involvement by the player was shown I suppose, but it's quicker that way than re-watching (or even watching for the first time) the whole match, which might not be easily accessible in some cases anyway. You saw the full game for Pele (away) vs Boca Juniors in 1963? That was maybe the one I had in mind (including the slick assist and the goal), but then again I may have been mixing games by thinking of some fouls from the home game too.
I suppose the likelihood is though that most of the performances have some sideways and perhaps backwards passing, but maybe sometimes (even when not eventually a key pass) it's useful or even the most positive option in a certain situation.... (sometimes if particularly well timed and well placed, and even well disguised, it can be a fruitful tactic to go sideways....but it's just one of various options I suppose and one thing that makes football great is the variety of choice a player has in nearly every situation). But yes, if the tally of them is high than that can say something about the approach. I suppose with stats systems the dilemma is always how much to standardise them and how much to allow some sort of value judgement by making the criteria more flexible.
As far as the loss of possession aspect goes, in terms of potential value judgements, it can be the case that the potential receiver of the pass doesn't quite read the intention or react as quick as he might. I think that Pele vs USSR game might contain a few instances of that, the way I was looking at it, but I'll choose that game to have a go at those scores anyway, plus Zidane vs Dynamo Kiev (a) from 97/98....
I think for the Pele one I count: 14 losses of possession 6 sideways/backwards passes 9 bonus occasions progressing vs multiple opponents (including one for goal, one for volley saved by Yashin which is a loss of possession, and one when in corner and passing backwards eventually which also added to sideways/backwards count, and also twice when fouled) EDIT - Actually, no maybe the pass backwards from wide in the corner is a key pass (didn't lead to a goal, but opened up an opportunity for the team-mate/team). If so that knocks the sideways/backwards count down to 5 including one from kick-off I think.
I think for the Zidane one I make it: - 12 losses of possession - 15 sideways/backwards (some or even a lot I don't find negative though, and a few certainly creative/progressive to be fair in the situation so maybe they should be excluded?) - 7 progressions vs multiple opponents (some great forward passes including first time assist don't qualify I don't think)
I suppose what I might need clarified, or what I might recommend for that scoring system would relate to instances like Kaka's assist to Crespo - he takes out at least one opponent with the pass as well as having the initial opponent to contend with when he receives the ball so if it's not worth a point then maybe I suggest a second positive category be added for things like that (Cruyff vs Sweden might score a lot better with it by approximation from memory too): And yeah, maybe I suggest only counting sideways or even backwards passes if they genuinely take away momentum or leave the onus with a team-mate when other avenues were available (but it might be getting too much along the lines of requiring value judgements to be 'fair' and consistent). Interesting system anyway, and it can show some intriguing results for various performances probably.
Yes, we need to refine this system. I noticed that time (or touches, more complicated) is important to mention. Rai had about half the flaws and lacks of creativity of Cruijff, but Cruijff had more than twice the time. Adding the bonus for Rai, they score about equally per time unit. However Cruijff should be rated higher for being in "Di Stefano mode". Kaka beats his marker and sets up Crespo for a shot without his marker being able to defend. What a play! Im not sure that if we add another bonus factor for this, it would cause disparity among the various positions. How does a goalkeeper compete? What bonus does he get in return? Or does a goalkeeper already have an advantage of almost always being able to play forward/creatively? Perhaps we should compare ratings of different positions and decide where to add and substract.
Yeah, it could get complicated and perhaps hard to make a universal system that treats goalkeepers, defenders, deep midfielders comparably (although of course to be in the mix with the best performances of all-time players in those roles would really need to show a lot over the course of the game, whereas to be MOTM in a random game perhaps not so much). I'll leave it to you to tweak your system but I guess goalies could get bonuses for taking crosses or short range saves (if not straight at them) or something. Yeah, the Kaka assist was great, although of course not the sole, or even main, reason I included that performance in my list as a rare choice of a game where the player in question was on the losing side (or drawing side over normal and extra time; Cruyff vs Sweden was on a drawing team too of course).
I think one issue with using video compilations (even if they capture all the touches; sometimes they don't or there's a situation where two videos are available and each miss a few scenes and occasionally key ones like was the case for Cruyff vs Argentina) is that different uploaders have different ways of going about showing things - sometimes off the ball runs are included, often passes of other players are included etc. The video times can vary based on these factors, and replays being shown etc.
Knowing that it's probably taken from this 54 min. lenght video (darker) : There's another post of this match (with less views) and it's still the same lenght.
Yeah, you could be right. I'd noticed that was available but had not looked in much detail yet, and now I see it must be like a highlights package rather than a straight 54 minute section of the game. Perhaps if it was originally a TV highlights package then at least all of Pele's really good moments would be shown, but missing half an hours play does make it a bit more difficult to assess....if that's what has happened - the next thing to do might be to compare the commentary to see if that's the same. Could be good to see the whole 54 minutes for Jairzinho, Gerson etc too anyway. It's possible I suppose that the missing action is mainly 'boring' play with not much happening?
Probably that all the positive actions are there but maybe it lacks losses of possession or other things like that. I guess yes.
Hmm, it could miss a few, although losses of possession are shown (sometimes after some skilled or promising play by Pele though, followed by an intercepted pass). Maybe the least interesting parts of the match are not shown on the 54 minutes video.
There are some videos with shorter highlights, and in one it looks like Pele who takes a ball from a corner on his chest and shoots just wide with a left footed volley. Hard to be definitive about what sort of footage is missing from the 54 minutes and hence the Pele vs USSR compilation too, but bearing in mind I wanted to assess full performances and already perhaps I lent on the generous side for that game if anything (but just like in the Mexico 1962 game, the potential for the impact/goals/assists in other games seems clear), although I might leave it among my list of 22 without re-doing that (as I think it must be a representative video at least), perhaps if I was offering a suggested top 10 and still with one player with one game, then I can just re-enter Hidegkuti's England performance (albeit there might be a couple to a handful of passes not shown on the video which I made myself - the footage cut out for a short time on the broadcast transmission but commentary carried on - if I had to guess then for Pele also it might be a few sideways passes etc that are missing more than anything but it would be a guess and there is much more missing in that case from the whole game, if indeed it's correct that that 54 minutes video was used to make the Pele one).
This was thus the problem I had with the biased highlighting of supposed mistakes. Even Pelé at his peak had them, not less of them, and at a generally slower game speed/effort.