The All-Encompassing Pro/Rel Thread on Soccer in the USA

Discussion in 'Soccer in the USA' started by bigredfutbol, Mar 12, 2016.

  1. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    England
    Apr 18, 2015
    Beacon NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    So as there's nothing else to talk about, despite accidentally tweeting a picture of his penis and putting the club up for sale out of embarrassment, Notts County's chairman was as good as his word and brought in a bunch of free agents and loan players to help us play our way out of trouble.

    Last weekend we fielded 7 new signings at home to first place Lincoln City and got a well earned point. This weekend we went to fourth placed Forest Green and took all 3 points. As it stands we are 4 points behind 22nd place Morecambe but as they have a much better goal difference so we may as well be 5 points behind.

    We play our 6 fingered neighbors Mansfield next at home. They are in second place, enjoying life back in the Football League after several seasons in the National League.

    In a non pro/rel system we'd be putting out a bunch of teenagers now, preparing for next season. As exciting as a relegation battle maybe, Notts fans are looking at Bury's possible liquidation as a means of salvation. It doesn't matter how you stay up, as long as you stay up.
     
  2. Funny thing is that Fortuna Sittard, the club of Yank Abroad Novakovitch, has hopes for EL football, but at the same time have to fear for relegation, as the points difference upwards and downwards for either possibilities are minimal. So half way the competition they have two things to fight for.
     
  3. HailtotheKing

    HailtotheKing Member+

    San Antonio FC
    Dec 1, 2008
    TEXAS
    Club:
    San Antonio Scorpions FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Bury's possible liquidation?

    BUT BUT BUT ... teams don't fail in pro/rel ...
     
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  4. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    England
    Apr 18, 2015
    Beacon NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Thanks to playoffs.
     
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  5. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    In a non pro/rel system you'd be perpetually consigned to a particular minor league with no opportunity to qualify for the promotion playoffs and moan about being robbed by refereeing decisions.

    No Football League team has gone bust since 1992 so I wouldn't get your hopes up about Bury, especially as the sums they purportedly owe creditors are small.
     
  6. HailtotheKing

    HailtotheKing Member+

    San Antonio FC
    Dec 1, 2008
    TEXAS
    Club:
    San Antonio Scorpions FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    What league were the Timbers in during the 80's and 90's ?
     
  7. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    I doubt Notts County would be springing for a cartel admission fee.

    The bottom line is that mobility in a pro/rel pyramid is just a tad higher than in a closed league system.
     
  8. HailtotheKing

    HailtotheKing Member+

    San Antonio FC
    Dec 1, 2008
    TEXAS
    Club:
    San Antonio Scorpions FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That doesn't answer the question.

    Notts, and plenty of others also aren't springing for a "merit" fee in order to move up or stay up.
     
  9. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    Yes it does.

    In fact, in a closed league system Notts County might not even exist. Nottingham Forest would likely have "territorial rights" over Nottingham.
     
  10. HailtotheKing

    HailtotheKing Member+

    San Antonio FC
    Dec 1, 2008
    TEXAS
    Club:
    San Antonio Scorpions FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    No, the question was: What league were the Timbers in during the 80's and 90's ?
     
  11. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    What's your point?
     
  12. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    England
    Apr 18, 2015
    Beacon NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    A closed league system and territorial rights are not synonymous.

    NRL is a closed league in which teams even share stadiums.

    Anyway it's unlikely the F-word would have had territorial rights as they are the younger team, both overall and in the Football League.
     
  13. Expansion Franchise

    Chattanooga FC
    United States
    Apr 7, 2018
    Now you're just being silly, they started in the major leagues, so they'd still be there.
     
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  14. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    On the contrary, they probably would have been relocated somewhere else.
     
  15. Expansion Franchise

    Chattanooga FC
    United States
    Apr 7, 2018
    I agree with both of your points, but I feel this is moving the goalposts a bit.
     
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  16. barroldinho

    barroldinho Member+

    Man Utd and LA Galaxy
    England
    Aug 13, 2007
    Ex-pat in HB, CA
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Did Notts County predate the standard use of the crossbar?
     
  17. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    England
    Apr 18, 2015
    Beacon NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yes, and referees. And each team had 18 players.
     
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  18. barroldinho

    barroldinho Member+

    Man Utd and LA Galaxy
    England
    Aug 13, 2007
    Ex-pat in HB, CA
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Sounds like MLS circa 1996.
     
  19. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    England
    Apr 18, 2015
    Beacon NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #18894 Paul Berry, Feb 12, 2019 at 9:08 AM
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2019 at 9:23 AM
    I prefer pro-rel, though I was never a big fan of extending it outside of the Football League. Still, Luton, Mansfield and Lincoln are making up for lost time.

    I think we've established that England is pretty unique, in that there's always someone who will come along and bail teams out. And in the last 30 years we've seen the rise of supporters' trusts who are willing to administer clubs while trying to find investors.

    However, several EFL clubs have gone bankrupt in recent years after dropping out of the league.

    Scarborough were wound up in 2007, Halifax in 2008, Chester in 2010, Rushden and Diamonds in 2011, Darlington in 2012 and Hereford in 2014.
     
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  20. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    #18895 M, Feb 12, 2019 at 12:02 PM
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2019 at 12:13 PM
    All of which now have phoenix teams in their place.

    Several of those teams - Darlington and Hereford in particular - were horribly managed. Unlike in a closed league system where failure is rewarded, such teams tend to get their comeuppance sooner or later in a pro/rel pyramid.
     
  21. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    England
    Apr 18, 2015
    Beacon NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    So it's OK for fans of a team in a pro-rel environment to suffer the humiliation of losing their team due to terrible ownership but when it happens with Chivas or Columbus, or Miami, or Tampa Bay, it's a symptom of a closed league.
     
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  22. HailtotheKing

    HailtotheKing Member+

    San Antonio FC
    Dec 1, 2008
    TEXAS
    Club:
    San Antonio Scorpions FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That the following statement you made is incorrect:
    "In a non pro/rel system you'd be perpetually consigned to a particular minor league"


    Which does nothing to erase the fact that they went kaput.

    Which all boils down to "it's ok for me because I like this way ... it is clearly not ok for you because I don't like your way"
     
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  23. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    Rewarding failure on the field of play means that other - likely better managed - teams and their fans are deprived of the opportunity to see their team play at a higher level. Not sure why you find that acceptable. Additionally, the fans of all those teams have the opportunity to support their phoenix teams and, due to pro/rel - watch them move up the pyramid. I see 4 of the 6 teams you mentioned play either 1 or 2 levels below the Football League. Scarborough could make it 5 next season.
     
  24. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    England
    Apr 18, 2015
    Beacon NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Was it fair that US fans were deprived of the opportunity to see their teams play at a higher level for 134 years, from the first recorded game in 1862 to 1996?

    In a very immature market fans still have a choice of who they support, from Detroit City FC to NYC FC to Borussia Dortmund.

    English non-league fans were deprived of the opportunity to see their teams play at a higher level for 99 years.

    Maybe by 2095 the US will have a soccer infrastructure that will support an open pyramid.

    I think it's more likely that the big European teams will play outside of the traditional soccer pyramids by then.
     
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  25. HailtotheKing

    HailtotheKing Member+

    San Antonio FC
    Dec 1, 2008
    TEXAS
    Club:
    San Antonio Scorpions FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Not sure why people find it acceptable to take a team that played inferior competition and have it replace a team that played superior competition ... but here we are
     
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