Anyway, apologies if you're doing your best to narrow your list to 100 and I'm contributing to trying to keep it longer than 200 I guess although you're adjusting your original 200, the main aim is to produce a list of 100 anyway and I'd only have him as a maybe for that myself onyour criteria I should think. World Soccer did put him in their second guide list of 100 players when conducting their poll for Players of the Century in 1999 btw (to show that whole list I'd again be quoting comme actually as the second list is not online other than Big Soccer I believe, but while I wouldn't say he fits this description there were a few surprising choices maybe because they wanted a good worldwide spread).
I didn't know Cruyff had picked him and Platini out (not an unusual opinion perhaps for that year but notable from him and also being later in the calendar year). And I do recall you've watched a bit more of him and Giresse at Bordeaux than me overall as you've mentioned some early 80's games before (particularly in regards to Giresse to be fair IIRC). I do remember Eric Batty (of World Soccer) picked him as his player of 1985 but he explicitly said Platini didn't need his vote/approval and so he would choose somebody else IIRC.
It is this match: Of his list I'd say that he can hold his own against Blanchflower, Gerrard, Neeskens, Redondo. I don't think he was 'better' over 10 years as Bozsik, Didi, Matthaus, Ocwirk, Rijkaard and Xavi. About the rest I don't know. Gerson should maybe added to the list above as well, as being better. He was (I think) widely regarded as the 2nd best of Brazil at the lead up of the 1966 World Cup, and then for some the vital piece in 1970. But maybe not for the full 10 years though (and Tigana his 2nd best and 3rd best major tournament was better as Gerson his 2nd and 3rd best although in 1966 the whole Brazil team was dysfunctional ofc).
Yes, I remember you'd made some comments about that match now. Do you feel similar for Neeskens in terms of picking a category (defensive/offensive) in which he excelled more? In different ways though but some overlap in terms of interplay with team-mates perhaps (Neeskens more combative/strong in defensive situations and more of a goalscorer; Tigana a retriever/pincher of the ball and dynamic coverer of ground, plus a fluent and precise passer and dribbler).
There's something to say for it. There's a late 70s/early 80s World Soccer issue (and at mid-80s in FF too I remember) where he's mentioned among the precious few in post-war history who are top class both as inside-forward and half-back (using the 'old' terms). With a bit of effort I can find it back I think. With the 'seal dribbles' (maybe you remember?) and other skilled plays I understand why they think that. But I'd say and think that he rarely combined both defensive and offensive sides in a blend where it is difficult to differentiate (for one key match or period/phase in career). Sometimes the 'needle' was aiming to the defensive aspects, on other occasions a lot more offensive. By that I do not mean his average position, because it is possible to be emphasized on the offensive while playing from deep positions (e.g. Pirlo, Xabi Alonso even), and the other way around. I've seen it a lot less often at least. edit: bit of the same is true for Matthaus, Rijkaard (etc.). Yes, they could play offensive - and from deeper positions too (making galloping runs from the deep, while still intercepting balls) but it rarely felt as an indistinguishable blend.
Yes, I think I see what you mean - Tigana was a very good 'transition' player I think whereby defensive contributions could turn quickly into creative and incisive play. By 'seal dribbles' do you mean like vs East Germany in 1974 where he is moving the ball between defenders and twisting/turning for example?
Yes. He's moving it between defenders with his head. That match and the tournament in general was an offensive one I'd say (maybe also accounted by difference between playing in 4-3-3 for most of career instead of a 4-1-2-1-2 square midfield now I'm thinking about it, in terms of transition plays and carrying the ball forward). edit: check stats https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...azhp-8fmg5BbiFCtPzKME/edit?pref=2&pli=1#gid=0
Ah yes, I understand what is meant with 'seal' dribble completely now. I seem to recall significantly more chances created by Tigana (but don't have a number in mind - just an idea that he was participating in more chance creation that I think the stats backed up) and stats slightly more balanced to attack in 1982, from when the widget was available on OPTA's website. Of course in 1986 he did have a couple of significant dribbles that led to a goal and a pre-assist.
Haha, that's about as extensive an example as I've seen! And really the equivalent of a proper dribble in a way, although not requiring the same skills at all. On a 1980's computer game called International Soccer I remember players could keep the ball up with their head while moving from one box to the other lol, but I think it was more in keepy-uppy style involving bounces! I've seen Pele doing the seal dribble in the penalty area before.
Thanks again for your detailed answers. I'm still not sure if i should include one of them or even both (Vieira & Tigana). Another player that i would have liked to see in my list is Karel Pesek-Kada, but i can't find enough sources to prove his ability other than Tom Stevens' Mitropa Cup thread. Additionally he could not play in any WC, and missed the chance to lead Czechoslovakia to the gold medal at the Olympic Games in 1920. I see a huge gap considering the 1920's and 30's in european football, even though it was still quite competitive. Would be nice if you leave your opinion or any sources! Otherwise i think i will continue to revise my list and if there's a lack of compatible options in any position, i will take another look how to extend my central midfielders selection.
I'm immersed in a similar work and I'm doing a discard cut by positions, so I'll give my initial suggestions: For missing: Beara, Vladimir (Yugoslavia) Combi, Gianpiero (Italy) Dasayev, Rinat (Soviet Union) Jennings, Pat (Northern Ireland) Mazurkiewicz, Ladislao (Uruguay) Which I questioned me but were hardly in a top 100: Neuer, Manuel (Germany) Pfaff, Jean-Marie (Belgium) Preud'homme, Michel (Belgium) Schumacher, Toni (Germany) van der Sar, Edwin (Netherlands) Zenga, Walter (Italy) I don't think they're feasible options: Gilmar (Brazil) Grosics, Gyula (Hungary)
I already updated my goalkeepers selection, Grosics and Carrizo are out, i added Dasayev, Neuer and Mazurkiewicz. I did not really think about Beara and Combi, i will take a look on them but Jennings couldn't convince me. It was very hard to rate Gilmar's total ability, but his success with the NT and his club were the main indicators for a high level of ability; even with his prominent teammates; as i also read he had two very good WC performances and slightly missed the goalkeeper spot in the team of the tournament in both cases.
Finally worked on my offensive midfielder selection (new players in bold): Charlton, Bobby (England) Cubillas, Téofilo (Peru) Deyna, Kazimierz (Poland) Francescoli, Enzo (Uruguay) Giresse, Alain (France) Gullit, Ruud (Netherlands) Hagi, Gheorghe (Romania) Iniesta, Andrés (Spain) Jair da Rosa (Brazil) James, Alex (Scotland) Kaká (Brazil) Kopa, Raymond (France) Laudrup, Michael (Denmark) Liedholm, Nils (Sweden) Maradona, Diego (Argentina) Mazzola, Sandro (Italy) Mazzola, Valentino (Italy), position change Netzer, Günter (Germany) Overath, Wolfgang (Germany) Pedernera, Adolfo (Argentina), position change Pirlo, Andrea (Italy) Platini, Michel (France) Riquelme, Juan Román (Argentina) Rivera, Gianni (Italy) Roberto Rivelino (Brazil) Rocha, Pedro (Uruguay) Sastre, Antonio (Argentina), position change Schiaffino, Juan Alberto (Uruguay) Schuster, Bernd (Germany) Sócrates (Brazil) Suárez Miramontes, Luis (Spain) Zico (Brazil) Zidane, Zinédine (France) Zizinho (Brazil) players substituted: Cruyff, Johan (Netherlands), categorized as Forward now Orth, György (Hungary) Tostao (Brazil), categorized as Forward now There were several position changes that i made here, so the number of offensive midfielders did increase to 17% overall. But in addition to the changes i added Giresse and Rocha which deserve their spots in this list in my opinion. I also looked up Alex James, whom i was originally not considering at all. As the creator of the most successful english club side of the pre-war era and a member of the "Wembley Wizards", i could not leave him out, especially regarding his high reputation by f.e. comme and Glanville. I excluded only one player, György Orth, because of a lack of longevity, caused by an injury. It was hard to rate his overall ability as he could not play a major role in any international tournaments, but he still was the closest player overall that i finally did not include, because of his exceptional prime ability in a very strong league. Would be nice if you leave your thoughts about this guy or any other deserved/undeserved spots!
For missing: Brehme, Andreas (Germany) Cannavaro, Fabio (Italy) Chumpitaz, Héctor (Peru) Domingos da Guia (Brazil) Which I questioned me but were hardly in a top 100: Bergomi, Giuseppe (Italy) Cabrini, Antonio (Italy) Hansen, Alan (Scotland) Júnior (Brazil) Shesternyov, Albert (Soviet Union) Zanetti, Javier (Argentina) I'd consider to Paul Breitner as midfield from his late career.
If you chose to place Cruijff and Tostao as a forward, then I'd suggest to do the same for Francescoli (certainly), Maradona, Sandro Mazzola, Pedernera, Rocha, Zico and Zizinho. What's the dividing line or argumentation? edit: of course the likes of Deyna, Liedholm, Giresse, Suarez, Zidane, Pirlo etc. are 100% midfielders.
Definitely, Cruijff and Tostao were creators just as Maradona, Pedernera, Zico, etc. But i needed to make some decision how to categorize all those players. The main factor for Cruijff and Tostao was their prolific goalscoring. After all i'm still not sure how to differentiate the original 'trequaristas'. But i decided to regard players that were also decent goalscorers like Di Stefano, Cruijff (esp. in his early career), Pelé, etc. as forwards. But after all, it does not matter for me if i got the players' position right, but primarily if i chose the right players.
Interesting to see that i chose 3 of your suggestions in my updated list, plus Leovegildo Júnior. Seems like i made the right decisions. Looking forward to your next suggestions, but would be nice if you directly refer to my updated selections (page 3 & 4).
Recently updated my Offensive Laterals selection (new players in bold): Amancio Amaro (Spain) Best, George (Northern Ireland) Boniek, Zbigniew (Poland) Czibor, Zoltán (Hungary) Dzajic, Dragan (Yugoslavia) Figo, Luís (Portugal) Finney, Tom (England) Garrincha (Brazil) Gento, Francisco (Spain) Giggs, Ryan (Wales) Hamrin, Kurt (Sweden) Jairzinho (Brazil) Julinho Botelho (Brazil) Lato, Grzegorz (Poland) Loustau, Félix (Argentina) Matthews, Stanley (England) Morton, Alan (Scotland) Nedved, Pavel (Czech Republic) Orsi, Raimundo (Argentina/Italy) Ribéry, Franck (France) Robben, Arjen (Netherlands) Ronaldinho (Brazil) players substituted: Konrád, Kálmán (Hungary) Peucelle, Carlos (Argentina) Puc, Antonín (Czechoslovakia) Vukas, Bernard (Yugoslavia), categorized as Forward now I decided to reduce the number of wingers (11%) as i recently increased the number of defensive players. It was a hard decision to exclude some of the players, especially Antonin Puc. It actually feels wrong that i always have to remove some players of the pre-war era. I will take a look on that issue, when i finished my first update series, but i don't want to have a too high amount of players playing after the 1940's. This is a list of the all-time greatest, this terms divides into the most successful and decorated, but also the most dominant players of all time. So the aim is to create a list where every generation of footballers is represented nearly equal (from 1900 onwards). That can't be realized, because of the huge change of the game, but it's a guideline for me, so my list will be as complete as possible.
Arqueros 01. LEV YASHIN (Rusia) 02. GIANLUIGI BUFFON (Italia) 03. DINO ZOFF (Italia) 04. SEPP MAIER (Alemania) 05. GORDON BANKS (Inglaterra) 06. PETER SCHMEICHEL (Dinamarca) 07. IKER CASILLAS (España) 08. RICARDO ZAMORA (España) 09. OLIVER KHAN (Alemania) 10. UBALDO FILLOL (Argentina) Defensores centrales 01. FRANZ BECKENBAUER (Alemania) 02. FRANCO BARESI (Italia) 03. BOBBY MOORE (Inglaterra) 04. DANIEL PASSARELLA (Argentina) 05. ELIAS FIGUEROA (Chile) 06. GAETANO SCIREA (Italia) 07. RUUD KROL (Holanda) 08. MATTHIAS SAMMER (Alemania) 09. ALESSANDRO NESTA (Italia) 10. JURGUEN KHOLER (Alemania) 11. RONALD KOEMAN (Holanda) 12. FERNANDO HIERRO (España) 13. MARCEL DESAILLY (Francia) 14. JOSÉ NASAZZI (Uruguay) 15. CARLES PUYOL (España) 16. FABIO CANNAVARO (Italia) 17. DOMINGOS DA GUIA (Brasil) 18. WILLY WRIGHT (Inglaterra) 19. JOSÉ SANTAMARIA (Uruguay) 20. GIUSEPPE BERGOMI (Italia) Defensores laterales 01. PAOLO MALDINI (Italia) 02. NILTON SANTOS (Brasil) 03. GIACINTO FACCHETTI (Italia) 04. CAFÚ (Brasil) 05. ROBERTO CARLOS (Brasil) 06. DJALMA SANTOS (Brasil) 07. CARLOS ALBERTO (Brasil) 08. BERTI VOGTS (Alemania) 09. KARL SCHELLINGER (Alemania) 10. LILIAN THURAM (Francia) 11. JAVIER ZANETTI (Argentina) 12. JÚNIOR (Brasil) 13. ANDREAS BREHME (Alemania) 14. DANIEL ALVES (Brasil) 15. ANTONIO CABRINI (Italia) 16. HANS PETER BRIEGEL (Alemania) 17. SILVIO MARZOLINI (Argentina) 18. MANUEL AMOROS (Francia) 19. BRANCO (Brasil) 20. PHILIPP LAHM (Alemania) Volantes defensivos 01. FRANK RIJKAARD (Holanda) 02. MARCO TARDELLI (Italia) 03. FERNANDO REDONDO (Argentina) 04. LUIS MONTI (Argentina) 05. JEAN TIGANA (Francia) 06. OBDULIO VARELA (Uruguay) 07. PATRICK VIEIRA (Francia) 08. NÉSTOR ROSSI (Argentina) 09. DANILO ALVIM (Brasil) 10. EDGARD DAVIDS (Holanda) 11. ROY KEANE (Irlanda) 12. ZITO (Brasil) 13. TONINHO CEREZO (Brasil) 14. DUNCAN EDWARDS (Inglaterra) 15. XABI ALONSO (España) 16. DAVE MACKAY (Escocia) 17. GRAEMME SOUNESS (Escocia) 18. VALERY VORONIN (Rusia) 19. HORST SZYMANIAK (Alemania) 20. MAURO SILVA (Brasil) Volantes mixtos 01. LOTTHAR MATTHAUS (Alemania) 02. FALCAO (Brasil) 03. XAVI HERNÁNDEZ (España) 04. JOZSEF BOZSIK (Hungría) 05. JOSÉ LEANDRO ANDRADE (Uruguay) 06. GERSON (Brasil) 07. PAUL BREITNER (Alemania) 08. JOSEF MASOPUST (R. Checa) 09. JOHAN NEESKENS (Holanda) 10. WILLEM VAN HANEGEM (Holanda) 11. STEVEN GERRARD (Inglaterra) 12. DANNY BLANCHFLOWER (Irlanda del Norte) 13. FRITZ SZEPAN (Alemania) 14. IGOR NETTO (Rusia) 15. JOSÉ PIRRI (España) 16. BERND SCHUSTER (Alemania) 17. YAYA TOURÉ (Costa de Marfil) 18. FRANK LAMPARD (Inglaterra) 19. OSVALDO ARDILES (Argentina) 20. MARIO COLUNA (Portugal) 21. BRYAN ROBSON (Inglaterra) 22. SEBASTIAN VERÓN (Argentina) 23. STEFAN EFFENBERG (Alemania) 24. BILLY BREMNER (Escocia) 25. ANDREA PIRLO (Italia) 26. JOSEF SMISTIK (Austria) 27. MICHAEL BALLACK (Alemania) 28. BASTIAN SCHWEINSTEIGER (Alemania) 29. PAUL SCHOLES (Inglaterra) 30. BULGARELLI, Giacomo (Italia) Mediocampistas ofensivos 01. DIEGO MARADONA (Argentina) 02. ZICO (Brasil) 03. MICHEL PLATINI (Francia) 04. ZINEDINE ZIDANE (Francia) 05. BOBBY CHARLTON (Inglaterra) 06. GIANNI RIVERA (Italia) 07. ZIZINHO (Brasil) 08. DIDÍ (Brasil) 09. MICHAEL LAUDRUP (Dinamarca) 10. RONALDINHO (Brasil) 11. ROBERTO RIVELINO (Brasil) 12. RAYMOND KOPA (Francia) 13. ANDRÉS INIESTA (España) 14. LUIS SUÁREZ MIRAMONTES (España) 15. ADOLFO PEDERNERA (Argentina) 16. LUIS FIGO (Portugal) 17. WOLFGANG OVERATH (Alemania) 18. JUAN SCHIAFFINO (Uruguay) 19. GHEORGHE HAGI (Rumania) 20. JUAN ROMÁN RIQUELME (Argentina) 21. GUNTER NETZER (Alemania) 22. SANDRO MAZZOLA (Italia) 23. SÓCRATES (Brasil) 24. NILS LIEDHOLM (Suecia) 25. ANTONIO SASTRE (Argentina) 26. VALENTINO MAZZOLA (Italia) 27. RICARDO KAKÁ (Brasil) 28. KAZIMIERZ DEYNA (Polonia) 29. RICARDO BOCHINI (Argentina) 30. HELMUT HALLER (Alemania) 31. THOMAS HAESLER (Alemania) 32. JAIR DA ROSA (Brasil) 33. DRAGOSLAV SEKULARAC (Yugoslavia) 34. ADEMIR DA GUIA (Brasil) 35. NICOLAE DOBRIN (Rumania) Extremos 01. GARRINCHA (Brasil) 02. GEORGE BEST (Irlanda del Norte) 03. STANLEY MATTHEWS (Inglaterra) 04. JAIRZINHO (Brasil) 05. DRAGAN DZAJIC (Yugoslavia) 06. FRANCISCO GENTO (España) 07. PAVEL NEDVED (República Checa) 08. TOM FINNEY (Inglaterra) 09. ZOLTAN CZIBOR (Hungría) 10. ARJEN ROBBEN (Holanda) 11. KURT HAMRIN (Suecia) 12. JULINHO (Brasil) 13. FRANK RIBÉRY (Francia) 14. RAIMUNDO ORSI (Argentina) 15. RYAN GIGGS (Gales) 16. JIMMY JHOSTONE (Escocia) 17. PEPE (Brasil) 18. OMAR CORBATTA (Argentina) 19. HELMUT RAHN (Alemania) 20. FÉLIX LOUSTAU (Alemania) 21. PIET KEIZER (Holanda) 22. AMANCIO AMARO (España) 23. ZBIGNIEW BONIEK (Polonia) 24. RENÉ HOUSEMAN (Argentina) 25. ALAN MORTON (Escocia) Segundos delanteros 01. PELÉ (Brasil) 02. LIONEL MESSI (Argentina) 03. JOHAN CRUYFF (Holanda) 04. ALFREDO DI STÉFANO (Argentina) 05. FERENC PUSKÁS (Hungría) 06. CRISTIANO RONALDO (Portugal) 07. EUSÉBIO (Portugal) 08. JOSÉ MANUEL MORENO (Argentina) 09. KARL HEINZ RUMMENIGGUE (Alemania) 10. RUUD GULLIT (Holanda) 11. GIUSEPPE MEAZZA (Italia) 12. ROBERTO BAGGIO (Italia) 13. GIORGY SAROSI (Hungría) 14. MATTHIAS SINDELAR (Austria) 15. FRITZ WALTER (Alemania) 16. RIVALDO (Brasil) 17. LADISLAO KUBALA (Hungría) 18. TEÓFILO CUBILLAS (Perú) 19. THIERRY HENRY (Francia) 20. HÉCTOR SCARONE (Uruguay) 21. OLEG BLOCKIN (Ucrania) 22. ENZO FRANCESCOLI (Uruguay) 23. OMAR SIVORI (Argentina) 24. NÁNDOR HIDEGKUTI (Hungría) 25. HRISTO STOICHKOV (Bulgaria) 26. TOSTAO (Brasil) 27. FLÓRIAN ALBERT (Hungría) 28. KENNY DALGLISH (Escocia) 29. DENNIS BERGKAMP (Holanda) 30. MARIO KEMPES (Argentina) 31. FRANCESCO TOTTI (Italia) 32. LEONIDAS (Brasil) 33. KEVIN KEEGAN (Inglaterra) 34. RAÚL GONZÁLEZ (España) 35. FERENC BENE (Hungría) 36. PAUL VAN HIMST (Bélgica) 37. ÁNGEL LABRUNA (Argentina) 38. PEDRO ROCHA (Uruguay) 39. RINALDO MARTINO (Argentina) 40. ROB RESENBRINK (Holanda) Centrodelanteros 01. RONALDO (Brasil) 02. GERD MULLER (Alemania) 03. MARCO VAN BASTEN (Holanda) 04. ROMARIO (Brasil) 05. UWE SEELER (Alemania) 06. SÁNDOR KOCSIS (Hungría) 07. JOSEF BICAN (República Checa) 08. GUNNAR NORDHAL (Suecia) 09. DIXIE DEAN (Inglaterra) 10. JIMMY GREAVES (Inglaterra) 11. GABRIEL BATISTUTA (Argentina) 12. ZLATAN IBRAHIMOVIĆ (Suecia) 13. SILVIO PIOLA (Italia) 14. ARSENIO ERICO (Paraguay) 15. LUIGI RIVA (Italia) 16. ADEMIR DE MENEZES (Brasil) 17. ANDRIY SHEVCHENKO (Ucrania) 18. JOHN CHARLES (Gales) 19. GYULA ZSENGELLER (Hungría) 20. LUIS ALBERTO SUÁREZ (Uruguay) 21. JURGUEN KLINSMANN (Alemania) 22. TELMO ZARRA (España) 23. JEAN PIERRE PAPIN (Francia) 24. DENIS LAW (Escocia) 25. GEORGE WEAH (Liberia) 26. HUGO SÁNCHEZ (México) 27. JUST FONTAINE (Francia) 28. LUIS ARTIME (Argentina) 29. FERENC DÉAK. (Hungría) 30. ALBERTO SPENCER (Ecuador)
I made an XI of players not mentioned above. What do you guys think? 1 Keylor Navas 2 Branislav Ivanovic 3 Gareth Bale 4 Jaap Stam 5 Giorgio Chiellini 6 Michael Essien 7 José Águas 8 Arturo Vidal 9 Angelo Schiavio 10 Dragan Stojkovic 11 Juan Ramón Verón
Wow that is a really solid list, I applaud. Although I have to ask, now that we’re 4 years into the future, does Luka Modric get into the list for central midfielders? A lot of people believe he is a top player in his position.
I will give my top 50. 1870s Arthur Kinnaird Billy MacKinnon 1880s Nick Ross John Goodall William Nevill Cobbold 1890s Ernest Needham Steve Bloomer Jimmy Crabtree Gilbert Oswald Smith 1900s Bobby Walker Billy Meredith Vivian Woodward 1910s Alfred Schaffer Charlie Buchan 1920s Gyorgy Orth Jose Leandro Andrade Hector Scarone Hughie Gallacher 1930s Alex James Antonio Sastre Gyorgy Sarosi Matthias Sindelar Giuseppe Meazza 1940s Jose Manuel Moreno Adolfo Pedernera Zizinho 1950s Ferenc Puskas Alfredo Di Stefano Stanley Matthews 1960s Pele George Best Garrincha Omar Sivori Bobby Charlton Eusebio 1970s Johan Cruyff Franz Beckenbauer 1980s Diego Maradona Zico Michel Platini 1990s Ronaldo Roberto Baggio Zinedine Zidane Romario 2000s Ronaldinho Thierry Henry 2010s Lionel Messi Cristiano Ronaldo Neymar 2020s Kylian Mbappe