Team of the Decade

Dzajic and Johnstone, could be labeled as FWs, easily.
I mean, 4 Fws and 2 MFs in this era, looks ok.

EDIT. Sorry, I though it was the 60s. But it needs another FW.

 

Why not an extra DF (Carlos Alberto / Marzolini) instead a MF (Voronin/Coluna)
It's very close, in my opinion,

 

You don't answer the question. What is the case for Antognoni? Why is he among the best 23 of his generation?

Brady is a much clearer case, starting with that he won a lot more, played for top teams and played in European finals and FA Cup finals.

As usual, your lists and commentary follow the big markets/languages cartel.

 

I know you basically haven't been trying to create an actual formation with these, but more like choosing a number of defenders/midfielders/forwards, but this one does end up as a pretty representative actual line-up of the era I think!

Or at least if you took out Sivori for Charles or Altafini it would do, and perhaps you could add an extra tier labelled inside forwards (because increasingly Didi and Suarez operated from midfield in their career) as well as centre forward. I guess it might be suggested Blanchflower and Masopust is a pair of creative/attacking wing halves, and usually there'd be a defensive one, but still overall it appears like a WM pretty much! Zito didn't really play as a 4th back in reality anyway, but more like an anchor midfielder of a 4-2-4 I suppose, and especially as you're not aiming for representative formations (sometimes not including two side-backs or whatever) then I'd think keeping Masopust over Mackay seems fair enough rather than re-creating the Tottenham half-back pairing for example.

 

This one is pretty much WM too (except probably none of Rivera, Charlton, or the 3 forwards are intended as wingers)!

I've seen the Carlos Alberto comments - my own inclination is probably to include him - he could be here instead of Schnellinger or perhaps in 65-75 - but I see what you've said about his stunted career. I'm not sure what part injuries played - Wikipedia talks of injury keeping him out of WC 1974, but I never looked into whether it originally knocked him out of the team after the 1970 WC too.

He has a very good career in Brazilian club football and the USA (being in several all-star teams and excelling as a sweeper I think) after 1970 seemingly, but I suppose we stopped your year by year project after the 1970 WC for now at least, so maybe I'd have looked more into it a bit if we'd carried on with that and I'm not sure how much time he spent injured. Wikipedia (which can't be taken as definite truth I know) does point to him being regarded as rare in 1964 for a defender due to combining "great tackling and reading of the game", with "his outstanding ball control, dribbling and playmaking abilities". He did breakthrough as a very young player so maybe gets some leeway for initial struggles in the NT? I had thought 65-75 might suit better but I guess it depends how good he was at this early age.

 

I'm thinking that like with Carlos Alberto there might even be some injury issues here that prevent a clearer cut 'great career' being evident but I haven't done any big analysis about it. I remember one year in the 80s from Vegan's ratings thread, where it was clear that Fiorentina fell away from near the top of the league after Antognoni was injured and missing for the second half of the campaign (or something along those lines IIRC, without checking it again now).

I suppose lifting a second tier Italian team, to be able to show signs of being up with the best, could be as good as doing well for a top tier team (I can understand though that Brady was unlucky to lose his Juventus place because they wanted to sign Platini - I guess Boniek is not a like for like comparison in terms of role in the team so much)?

1979/80 seems perhaps his high point (with a good Euro 80 I think? - while actually I noted that I thought he was playing quite well to very well in WC78 from what I watched but ratings don't seem so good overall in that one - maybe a good touch and passing ability can always take the eye though irrespective of making a big difference in games ultimately). Maybe the original Italian text is even better for this in your view (you could perhaps have a look and see what you think) but there are hints at his value that year, not only in the 3-0 vs Roma game:
https://translate.google.com/transl...ietta-tripletta-di-antognoni.html&prev=search
This is the game talked about:

 

Rui Costa did get more votes here (I include his French Wiki page just in case someone took the assists figure as reliable - his piece is clearly written by an admirer but they must have trusted an unreliable modern stats source, lacking data I think - on French Wiki there is the decisive passes column which I haven't verified as reliable either to be fair but indicates a lot more assists for Fiorentina):
https://www.violanation.com/2018/10...er-10-antognoni-rui-costa-montuori-pandolfini
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rui_Costa_(football)

But that's no disgrace I guess, even if the vote being the other way would speak more for Antognoni's status. The write up is very complimentary of course, but I know they can often lavish praise.

 

Carlos Alberto is also a much more obvious picture I'd say. He was an integral piece, the captain, and at times a frequent scorer of South Americas biggest club and country team.

Thanks. Yes this helps, but which campaign was that?

List of games and games missed here:
https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/gia...n//liga/1/wettbewerb//pos//trainer_id//plus/0

 

Regarding Antognoni 1984-85 is the season he didn't feature in any Serie A games.

Giancarlo ANTOGNONI
01.04.1954, 73 A, Midfielder

League record (Games/Goals)
1970-71 05 01 Asti (D4 - Ita)
1971-72 21 03 Asti (D4 - Ita)
1972-73 20 02 Fiorentina (D1 - Ita)
1973-74 25 01 Fiorentina (D1 - Ita)
1974-75 29 04 Fiorentina (D1 - Ita)
1975-76 30 05 Fiorentina (D1 - Ita)
1976-77 28 04 Fiorentina (D1 - Ita)
1977-78 26 06 Fiorentina (D1 - Ita)
1978-79 27 00 Fiorentina (D1 - Ita)
1979-80 30 08 Fiorentina (D1 - Ita)
1980-81 27 09 Fiorentina (D1 - Ita)
1981-82 16 03 Fiorentina (D1 - Ita)
1982-83 27 09 Fiorentina (D1 - Ita)
1983-84 18 05 Fiorentina (D1 - Ita)
1984-85 00 00 Fiorentina (D1 - Ita)
1985-86 19 01 Fiorentina (D1 - Ita)
1986-87 19 04 Fiorentina (D1 - Ita)
1987-88 33 05 Lausanne Sports (D1 - Swi)
1988-89 18 02 Lausanne Sports (D1 - Swi)

 

83/84 was the one I'd noticed - I think it was maybe not on Vegan's thread I commented because I remember it was a reply about Platini's ELO rating, and potentially the points Juventus got ELO wise in the home game vs Fiorentina (with neither Platini or Antognoni playing - the other league game between them was 3-3 with both playing and both scoring):
https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/spielbericht/index/spielbericht/2374749

They don't fall down the league a long way (2nd to 3rd) while he is out (missing 11 of the 12 games he misses overall - in the other one they do get a point against Roma and to be fair two of the league games he misses are the away ones at Juve and Roma), but score about 1 a game rather than 2 which they did with him, and they win the same as they lose (3 each with 6 draws) in the games he misses, while winning half of the 18 he plays in and only losing 3.

So I suppose they lost the chance to carry on being a contender for the title but still maintained a good league position.

He gets his second best average from DBS Calcio (behind the 79/80 season) that season. Then in the 84/85 season without him they carry on with similar points/goals as they did without him in the second half of 83/84 and finish 9th, so maybe of the things you look at Puck the Goal Impact one (if available for him) could be one to investigate to see how much his influence is shown in that respect generally? It's normal when an underdog team loses it star player that it doesn't win or score as much to an extent though surely!

 

They basically replaced him with Socrates for 84/85 I suppose. So while the Brazilian is the bigger legend worldwide and with the more impressive NT resume, the Fiorentina team, according to ratings and results (and team goals as opposed to individual tallies), didn't function as well with him in it at that time as compared to when Antognoni was in it.

 

They also lost Bertoni to Napoli. He scored 10 non penalty goals for Fiorentina in 1983-84 and 11 for Napoli in 1984-85. Basically you miss around 15 goals + assists (without set pieces or penalties).

I will try to make a breakdown later.

 

This is flogging a dead horse (it's also a bit unfair to single him out), it will be ignored like groundhog day, and the usuals will not comprehend, but I'd break it down like this;


1) Obviously he has that Italian aura/facade of class, both in his appearance and way of playing. Questions might be asked though about his effectiveness: 86 career goals in 550+ competitive games, of which 1/3rd are penalties. Only two goals in his entire career against Juventus, which was domestically the dominant team of his time (the mid 70s to mid 80s).

2) Antognoni won only two trophies in his career. The 1975 Coppa Italia and the 1982 World Cup in which he didn't play the final.

3) He has two tournaments where he is seen among the good players (1980 and 1982) without having a shout to really belong among the top dozen of those tournaments. His performance against Argentina in 1982 is probably his personal highlight (France Football gave a 5/6 for that, his best mark in the tournaments). In all his tournaments combined he has only 0 goals and 3 assists (two World Cups, euro 1980 and the Mundialito). Here, here and here.

4) Of course you don't play 73 caps by chance and at the time of his retirement only Zoff and Facchetti had played more games than him (Scirea and Tardelli went past him as well). He captained his team four times. He was a reliable player who didn't need too many liberties, if you compare it to his 'predecessor' Rivera. Rivera or before him Sivori were of course excellent players, among the best of their generation, but much more of the type where you need to build a midfield around and have to make allowances for. This is a 'plus' for Antognoni and thus a few different managers had trust in him.

5) On the other hand, there is (as hinted above) maybe a lack of goals and assists (7 goals in 73 caps). In competitive games he has only three goals: Luxemburg, England and Greece. The goal against England was a deflected free kick.

6) At continental level he has four 1st round exits and one 2nd round exit. He has also only one goal, a penalty against Craiova of Romania.

7) Italian league wasn't too glorious for most of his time and the big influx of foreigners came when he was 28 years old. Italy wasn't a top five league in the (politicized) rankings between 1977 and 1984 and in a few years even outside the top 10.

8) Fiorentina finished three times in the top three. In 1977, 1982 and 1984. Antognoni played however only 16 and 18 games in the '82 and '84 seasons. If you look at this it is not immediately a slam dunk in terms of "yes, this sub-top team becomes 40-50% weaker without their talisman" (Van Dijk at Southampton, Shearer at Newcastle until his early 30s).

9) He was never selected for the Onze XI, only once he made it into this Europe wide poll (in 1980). Ballon d'Or included him four times, each time one vote (twice by Sweden, once by West Germany, once by East Germany). DBScalcio shows him four times among the best three of his position in the league, including the incomplete seasons.

I know this is groundhog day, but what is out there to think he is among the 25 best players of his generation? Typically, 19 of the 23 are from the big markets. Is Antognoni really that much better than a Vercauteren, Muhren or even Jan Peters? I would say his best distinction is the large number of caps he had, and that Italy became poor after his retirement (which lasted for about four or five years). In 1982 Italy played for three matches as a champion (in one match he didn't play), that basically made his legacy.

Not convinced his club career is all that. His national team career is very good, without ever reaching particularly notable heights. Footballing ability is also good though it lacks a certain punch and/or big game record.

 

+ Basically I used my own guidelines ('big game' record etcetera, record against the top team of your own league).

https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/fo...e-last-25-years.2103831/page-11#post-38072311

Antognoni has 2 goals in 30+ games vs Juventus. Although the goals per game was very low back then, it is clearly removed from what other midfielders can show (for comparison: tactical central midfielder Seedorf has 8 non-penalty goals in 22 league matches vs Juventus, even a better ratio until the age of 32, which is a 'plus' in my mind).

At the same time, Antognoni combined technical ability with discipline and the capability to play in service of others and his team. The technical ability of a superstar without playing that way. That contributed to so many caps and many more caps than the 'stars' playing for bigger club teams (Beccalossi etc who were rightly seen as a tactical liability). That is an achievement in itself.

 

OK, only see this post now

 

Jonquet seems the weakest pick. Maybe, Hanappi or another one.

 

I agree on Carlos Alberto.
Marzolini, maybe had a lower peak, but his consistency at high level was 8 years aprox.