Separate names with a comma.
Discussion in 'Germany' started by Kampfschwein, Oct 26, 2011.
Yes, and no.
Perhaps I can shed some light on this by saying something about this as someone who grew up on this outskirts of Hamburg.
In school one thing that was noticeable was that St. Pauli was the club of choice among people who knew nothing about football. St. Pauli fans in my school (Uetersen if anyone is interested) where kids who had never attended a game, didn't follow the news and couldn't tell you what the score had been in any of the last three games of the club. Why? Because being following Pauli was hip. The club has managed to create an image of being an underdog, hip, left-leaning and different.
St. Pauli is an underdog, their teams have always shown fighting spirit and a history of coming away with sensational results in proportion to the humble means they were given. Their fans are always a great crowd who support their team no matter the outcome. You will never see St. Pauli fans flock toward the exits at the 80th minute when they're heading for a loss. Their fans have also succeeded at branding the club as pro left and anti-neonazi all over Germany, an image that resonates with many young people (Mainz university bathrooms 600km away for instance are plastered with the infamous St. Pauli Fans gegen Rechts stickers). They have had charismatic leaders such the openly gay St. Pauli red light district celebrity Corny Littman as president and their trainer Holger Stanislawski. And they do do things a little different, such as playing the anthem of the opposing team as a welcome during home games and for such little knick knacks such as having special lounge seats with beer taps under each seat and a model train system to deliver the fries and currywurst.
So yes, St. Pauli is hip and different in both reality and in the image that they have created of themselves. However, I do not know how that compares to Bayern. Bayern will be given a lot of attributes in Germany but I do not believe that hip is among them. They are respected and detested, loved and hated, but the fact is that given their means and the way they have distanced every other team in Germany, anything but a Championship and DFB-Pokal win for every single year is nothing but a disgrace to them.
Frankly, I wouldn't know how they compare to St. Pauli in anything but having many people among their fans who know nothing about football.
And no credit for where that came from? Wow, I feel dejected. If I was a St Pauli fan I would go buy a latte and complain about how the capitalist society is the reason the Smiths broke up.
Didn't know the BigSoccer handle or yours. Sorry. Thought you'd pipe in at some point.
Do other countries have their own St. Pauli equivalents?
By the way, I meant no disrespect when I said that Bayern and St. Pauli have a lot of fans who know nothing about football. Most people in marketing would probably agree that the ultimate marketing success is getting people to identify with a product that they know nothing about. Both Bayern and St. Pauli have done this very well. It's just sometimes annoying talking to people telling you how cool St. Pauli is when they know nothing about the team.
One thing that's not so nice about St. Pauli is that they also define themselves by hating HSV. Apart from the hardcore fans on both sides who have nothing but scorn for the other team, I believe most normal HSV fans and people in the Hamburg area in general are happy when St. Pauli does well and ascends to the Bundesliga, everyone likes to have both teams in the same league. While HSV was down in the doldrums over the last few months, there have been nothing but jeers from St. Pauli fans. They pride themselves on respecting other teams, but sadly that does not include HSV.
There are actually a few St. Pauli fans who I look forward to hearing less from now that HSV is on the up and up again. Nur der HSV!
As far as I'm concerned, I rather dislike the whole anti-fascist stick.
We're not in the 1930s. No need to elevate the few Neonazi thugs' relevance.
The extreme left and extreme right scenes love to play that game. Confronting another. They indulge in it.
I don't play that game. Ignoring 'em works best. Just like one ought not feed internet trolls. Starve them of attention.
I have seen too many people wearing a St. Pauli Totenkopf shirt or something like that who I know have no real connection to football or to the city of Hamburg. I see them in Munich, which is as far away from Hamburg as possible, so I like the idea of thinking of them as a left-leaning version of the "Erfolgsfan", basically. Just that "Erfolg" to them is defined differently than to a Bayern Erfolgsfan. These kinds of St. Pauli fans think they are cool, but they are just sheep following their special kind of mainstream.
Speaking of Erfolgsfans, I just have to get rid of the following story which occurred this wednesday before the Bayern-Ingolstadt DFP-Pokal game. I talked to someone from Hallertau region about that game (Hallertau is close to Ingolstadt) and he's a Bayern supporter. We talked about the current plight of seeing Ingolstadt last in the 2. Bundesliga and how this bugged him. So I asked him, "in this game I guess you will support Ingolstadt, because it's actually much closer to your little town than Munich?". He said, "no, I won't, because Bayern have better chances to succeed in this competition". The rational view of a Erfolgsfan. Then I asked "ok, this means that when Bayern plays Barcelona in a CL quarterfinal, you will then support Barcelona because they are more likely to succeed in the competition?" I didn't get an answer, he thought about it for a few seconds and then just shook his head. We changed the subject afterwards.
In the beer world, Hallertau = Hops
Hmmm... Interesting that no Pauli fans took part in this discussion yet. Until now, that is.
I'm a Pauli fan since my kindergarden days and I grew up cheering for them even more than for my hometown team Werder Bremen. I love when the team upsets the top dogs, I love our fan culture and what we do in the stands and I love St. Pauli as my favorite district in Hamburg (I was living close to the Schulterblatt for a while). I admit that we do have certain ''hipster fans'' that care more about the brand than the team, but I generally don't really mind. I mean, of course I see the problem of watering down the fan culture in a similar way that gentrification changes the city scape, but in the end I welcome any sympathy for the team and the true fans still come to the games.
To have no expiriences with extreme right minded people does not mean there isn't a real existing problem. That's just plain ignorant.
St. Pauli's hipster fans are ridiculous, but can easily be ignored. The holier-than-thou lefties on the other hand are annoying as ********.
Extremists in general (right, left, religious, ...) are a problem. Too handle them is quite difficult, but I like it when a good joke is done about them since it shows how stupid most of the extremists thoughts are.
A nice one happened some weeks ago in the Saxonian regional government:
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xAemDwDAZno"]Redebeitrag von Miro Jennerjahn NPD-Antrag.rm - YouTube[/ame]
Background: The NPD (a neo-nazi party) proposed to leave non German words out of proposals done in the Saxonian government. Miro Jennerjahn, a politician from the Green party (with linguistic knowledge), jokes about it by stating many facts, e.g. that the NPD proposal is full of foreign words and he gives nice examples of German words with Latin, English, French and even Malaysian background). Finally he advised the NPD members to prefer English because many words have a Saxonian language background.
I'm not saying those thugs aren't a problem. But they're a fringe problem.
So don't give 'em what they want: attention.
I don't think for instance the state should fund anti-Neonazi campaigns to educate youths.
Instead, you should fund sports associations, cultural activities, have full-day schools and make sure youths get apprenticeships and jobs.
Well, and just a few days later this breaks:
(summary: new evidence found last week suggests that at least 10 unsolved murders comitted in Germany during the 2000s were executed by a neo nazi group, the victims were a cop and 9 immigrants).
Isolated crimes committed by a few individuals.
Don't give the nutters power by elevating their heinous crimes to the height of society-wide significance.
Interesting discussion. There is actually a St. Pauli supporter group based in NYC which could easily fit into the "hipster" section of their fandom. Don't know for a fact though but I intend to find out when I go down there and talk to the founders.
During the last 20 years neo nazis have murdered about five times as many people as the RAF did during their entire existence (34 vs. a low estimate of about 150). Of course neo nazis, even if they are organized in groups or parties - like the once involved in the latest murders - are always isolated nutcases.
A map of victims (until 2010, so missing at the very least the (still assumed) 10 victims mentioned earlier, as well as another murder that happened a few weeks ago):
They also post on BigSoccer - at least some members. See the St. Pauli thread.
I'm not saying Neonazis aren't a problem. RAF terrorism was after all also a problem.
But neither have or had the capacity to influence mainstream society.
I find those who center their political identity around opposing/fighting such fringe elements problematic.
We're not in 1932. Though some get their jollies from pretending we are. Ridiculous.
A very small minority. But mainstream media and politics are generally ignoring the problem whenever they can. Reading Springer papers, or listening to some politicians you'd expect us sliding right into a civil war against 'dem muslims or something. Right wing violence? Boys will be boys, and it's only Vietnamese or hobos getting beaten up anyway...
There's a huge potential for domestic terrorism, and it's only getting worse. Is there any danger of a 4th Reich anytime soon? Hell, no... but if you have regular lynchings going on every few weeks, we're way beyond "just ignore them and they'll go away". I mean, in September (I think) an Asian man was hunted down and beaten to death by guys with Swastika tattoos. Did this even register in the media? You only ever hear about nazis anymore if it is as major as the current findings, if it can't possibly be ignored.
For the sake of correct information - the killing I mentioned in the end happened in March already (not that this makes much of a difference) - but I read about the trial recently, and for some reason thought it had also happened more recently when I posted.
right on cue
The case sent shudders through German society, which has struggled for decades to put the country’s Nazi era behind it. The scope of violence ascribed to the neo-Nazis drew comparisons with the left-wing terrorists of the former Red Army Faction, also known as the Baader-Meinhof Gang.
The killings are signs of “a new form of right-wing-extremist terrorism,” the country’s interior minister, Hans-Peter Friedrich, said at a news conference in Berlin on Sunday. Speaking to reporters in Leipzig on Sunday, Chancellor Angela Merkel said the crimes revealed “structures that we never imagined.”