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Discussion in 'Germany: National Teams' started by .Azulgrana., May 2, 2013.
It shows that the NT would fare much better if it was coached by Klopp or Heynkes
I tricked you guys pretty good.
Iam not too familar with Khedira and the way he plays but it seems to me he was one of the stabilizing elements in the defense in WC2010. He played a similar role as Frings 2006 without the long range shooting ability but with more technical skills and a bit more pace. In his role as Schweinsteigers partner in midfield he could be his "Martinez". It works perfectly for Bayern and he takes this role in Madrid too. Khedira>Kroos?
I think Khedira is different kind of player to Matinez. He's more forward-moving and not as good a reader of the game. If his finishing was better he would be a perfect box to box midfielder and would add to our goal output but he misses chances far too easily. His workrate and leadership are invaluable however and he really galvanized the team in the recent year. Only Ozil has been better than him in that timespan.
I'm still torn whether he can be our screener the way Martinez is but since he has grown at Madrid, perhaps he will add this to his repertoire as well. Having said that I think we would all be better off with a three man midfield but that's another story.
Didn't you watch the Barcelona game?
Bayern has this guy called Arjen Robben who terrorizes other teams along the flank. He also scored an absolute humdinger on Wednesday.
The Toni Kroos fellow has been injured for weeks, and Bayern have played their best football without him.
Bayern's success is more a result of their international contingent: Ribery, Robben, Alaba, Madzukic, Dante, and Javi Martinez--the last four of which have joined the team within the last year or two and established themselves. Bayern would be nowhere near as good without their international contingent.
Mandzukic isn't even a real factor in the CL and Kroos was also part of an excellent performance against Arsenal (performed well in both games against Dortmund, something Ribery and Robben often failed to do), not to mention in last year's CL campaign which btw had also Badstuber.
It is obvious that Ribery and so on are also very important but the heart of Bayern's game is Schweinsteiger and Müller's importance can't be denied either.
So to say Bayern's success is MORE a rsult of their internationals is just ignorance. Give Heynckes the german squad and he could do the same (Götze instead of Ribery, L. Bender instead of Martinez, Reus instead of Robben etc., only issue would be the LB position).
And, of the German players - only Schweinsteiger, Müller and Lahm are as important.
Mandzukic absolutely IS and has been a factor in Europe. He was a major reason Bayern outplayed Arsenal and Juventus in both legs. How is that not a factor. Actually I don't want to hear a response because I know what it will be.
And of course you judge him on his last match rather than the entirety of his season. Fact is, Müller>>>>Robben in terms of contribution to Bayern's season.
That Toni Kroos guy was an indisputable starter on this extraordinary Bayern team for a reason. "Best football" is completely and totally subjective as well, and I love how you ignore how Robben was injured for months on end.
And Bayern would also be nowhere as good without their German contingent. In fact, Bayern would be nowhere as good without Schweinsteiger, full stop, who is by far the most important player on this Bayern team. We could go back and forth all day, but its useless.
Can't believe that there are actually people who would argue that Kroos and Mueller are more integral to Bayern's success than Robben, Ribery, and Javi Martinez. Wow! Seriously, wow!
They are both.
This season the core of Dante-Schweinsteiger-Martinez-Mandzukic has been the most integral but the system still wouldn't work without the wide players.
Mueller scored and assisted in every round of the CL this season. Including 3 goals and 2 assists versus Barcelona. He usually scores or assists the most important goals (1-0 or 1-1 or 2-1, etc). I am astonished that you would rate any attacking player's influence above him for Bayern.
He had the only goal away to Valencia.
Scored 1 and assisted 1 against Arsenal.
Scored 1 against Juve at home.
Scored 2 and assisted 1 against Barcelona at home.
Scored 1 against Barcelona away.
Mueller is by far the best big game performer in all of Germany.
Time and again Schweini, has shown that he is the most important player for Bayern. Martinez looks ********ing lost when he isn't on the pitch.
zonalmarking for example called Kroos Bayern's most important player but yeah let's just dismiss him because it fits your view. :rollyes:
And that you also won't even acknowledge Müller's outstanding season is even more telling.
Ya, sure Mandzukic was the reason for that... funnily enough you didn't say this about Gomez in all those CL games in the past or even present (like against Barca). Having said this Mandzukic's performances were ok but let's not pretend that he wasn't the least important player of the offensive players (only 3 scorer points in 9 games tells you quite a bit about his contribution).
He wasn't the reason for that. He was integral to it.
And STFU about Gomez already. Nobody is discrediting him and it speaks volumes that a positive assessment of Mandzukic means a negative one of Gomez. You have NO intent to really have an objective discussion here.
Lol @ SirManchester saying others being not objective. Hypocrite
Grow up and learn to debate, Simon.
Don't buy your point at all. Leinad ********ed u up badly as I've seen. Ur explanations are flawed and laughable. Trying to hide many things u can't deny as well. Lol
U too...strikerless man.
Hmmm...I can't believe anyone would argue Robben has been more important in the CL to Bayern than either Mueller or Kroos.....not that the stats below indicate the inverse exactly...
Minutes Played: 590
Attempts on Target: 15
Minutes Played: 955
Attempts on Target: 18
Minutes Played: 641
Attempts on Target: 19
So, Kroos has now at this point played less minutes, but has as many goals as Robben, no assists to Robben’s 1 and only 4 less shots on target….
Mueller has played roughly 300 more minutes than Robben, but has 5 more goals, 1 more assist and 1 less shot on target
Look, I have no malintent towards you. I like your passion and we are both fans of the National Team and want it to do well. Moreover you are convinced my arguments are antagonistic in nature or they disrespect your fandom of player A, beliefs, etc when that's clearly not the case. It's very easy to make sense of confusion when you convince yourself to perceive a double/extreme narrative. That's what you seem to be doing all the time for this argument. I just always politely ask you to clarify and develop your replies which you don't do and then you just becoming insulting when you hit a wall.
The non-German NT players for Dortmund have contributed less to Dortmund's success than Bayern's non-German NT players have for Bayern? At least in the CL, a quick glance at Uefa's stats indicates it's really pretty even for both teams or doesn't support what some are suggesting:
Top Four Players Clocking the Most Minutes:
Bayern: Lahm 977, Mueller 955, Dante 937, Schweinsteiger 848
Dortmund: Schmelzer 1080, Lewandowski 1000, Reus 988, Piszczek 983
Number of Assists by German NT Players
Number of Assists by non-German NT Players:
Total goals scored:
Bayern: Mueller 8, Pizarro 4, Kroos 3, Robben 3, Gomez 2, Mandzukic 2, Alaba 2, Schweinsteiger 2, Shaqiri 1, Ribery 1
Dortmund: Lewandowski 10, Reus 4, Santana 2, Goetze 2, Schieber 1, Kuba 1, Hummels 1, Schmelzer 1
Total Goals by German NT Players:
Total Goals by non-German NT Players:
Top Four Players Covering the Most Distance
Bayern: Mueller, Schweinsteiger, Lahm, Martinez
Dortmund: Schmelzer, Reus, Piszczek, Lewandowski
As the above is more about the offensive performance of both teams, I bet the defensive stats would break differently and show an increase in influence of Dante, Alaba and Martinez on Bayern's game...but whatever.
Hit a wall? I looked at ur reply to Leinad, seems like u are hitting a wall...
U still haven't given me a good reply on this. When Goezt has never been professionally trained as a striker, never played there, and his finishing/aerial aviltiy, scoring instinct, positioning are all sub-par as a striker, why do u expect him to play up top?
If a player is professionally trained to play striker, has never played defender all his life, at Nt level would u take the risk and play him at CB? I think it's the same logic
And I really hate en u say teams can only play a striker formation when they only have Mandzukic or Leeanowski. It's not a trend. Other than Barcelna, too teams like Man Utd, Man City, Chelsea, Bayern Munich, Dortmund, Arsenal, Real Madrid, AC Milan, PSG... Are all play with strikers. Will that change? No. Coz they are spending billions of dollars every season (or two) on strikers. Strikerless won't be the main stream. Unlike 4-5-1
Strikers have their worth in the game. Not just Lewandowski or Mandzukic. Mario Gomez scored 90 plus goals in the last two seasons for BM, he was just mistreated by the BM, everything u says about him "doesn't belong" is myth. He started in 2012 Euro, played very well and was our top scorer until he was injured after the first three games; Klose is still doing well, and a great choice as a lone striker in a 4-5-1, he has the complete package and his passing ability is too notch among all the strikers in the world, his expereince is important as well. Kiessling is also an allrounder, also has a imports pa large and can help out up top
U are overlooking professional training at club level. Overlooking scoring instinct, positioning, aerial ability, finishing from an attacker. U can't always rely on Hummels from the back on headers. Club training is the key to shape up a player, not NT training which takes less than a month time during a year
I think many people here think my arguments have their points. U have selectively" tried to answer but ur arguments are weak and funny at times, sometimes u even tried to hide/avoid to answer something u can't explain. U tried but its ridiculous at times
If you can point out what I didn't answer to his posts, feel free to do so. His main argument is that Löw isn't tactically naive, Gomez can performs as a Lewandowski or Mandzukic, and that Kiessling should be called up. All utter non-points.
I actually did but I'll do so again.
I expect him to play upfront because he's out best option in a strikerless system. Also, your argument implies that unless there is experience, one should never venture outside that comfort zone to try and innovate. That's not how things work.
Total false equivalency and this is where you can't debate. In modern football, even though strikers exist, albeit more mobile ones, there is a platform for forwards (not strikers! DIFFERENCE) and wing forwards to play very similar roles and occupy the same space traditional strikers and even modern strikers do. They play in the same band practically and have the ability to. A striker can't all of a sudden go from the attacking band to the defensive band. Totally different position and responsibilities. The responsibilities and traits of Götze are very similar to a striker and here's the key. When you have a lot of players of the same ilk, that need for a central figure decreases even more.
Wait, what? I never said that you need a Lewa or Mandzukic to play that. You're putting words in my mouth or don't understand the contextual differences between teams with high energy and highly technical players who gear their teams towards a certain style and thus benefit from more mobile strikers and teams that play a very straighforward 4-4-2 with strikers who have more "traditional" attributes.
Also, those examples you list. United have van Persie, Chelsea have Torres and Ba, Madrid have Higuain and Benzema, Milan have Balotelli and El Sharaway, PSG have Ibra. All technical and mobile strikers. Anyway, I don't even think this was your point but you mumbled your words so I'm just making sure it wasn't what you meant.
Didn't you also claim that you'd rather not have Gomez start? Anyway, this isn't about Gomez for me but more about the synergy of the team and who enables it more.
Bayern's physical level doesn't come from their strikers. Neither do United's or Chelsea's to an extent. Or City's with the exception of Dzeko. I think it's important to have the ability to head the ball but that's what Goemz is for. If we need an aerial threat he can be brought in. Otherwise why play with that only for headers and physique when it's really not required as a 100% match winning solution. We have enough quality in defense and midfield. Perhaps you are overlooking that.
Nah. You just have a hard time accepting something new. Your instinctual reaction is to cling on to what you are familiar with. Something this new and unproven is scary so you are desperately trying to find reason but sometimes you just have to give yourself over to the idea that something wonderful can happen when you simply let go. Try it.