So much for the Spanish and Italian Leagues [R]

I already said that I don't think it was a conspiracy by Liverpool to lose, but I'm just questioning how you can possibly say they were "clearly trying"? Even the commentator made remarks about Liverpool players pulling-out of challenges.

Just because they had a match mid-week is no excuse. Teams play 2 matches in a week all-the-time.

If it was Fulham I would've found it surprising for them to appear so flat in a derby match. But they're also not as good or have a squad as deep as Liverpool so the comparison is irrelevant.

 

If it were Fulham...AND Fulham had a vested interest in not trying then you might be able to compare them. It was Liverpool...not Fulham. Fulham would have no reason to do anything questionable so what do they have to do with anything?

So tell me again how it's not likely or possible that match fixing could be going on in England?

And this would all be relevant if the strength of the EPL was based soley (or even predominantly) on English supporters. The creation of the EPL brought with it a huge TV contract like you said...and as a result....loads of foreign supporters. If those foreign supporters ever thought (or were told) that teams in the league were cheating, how long do you think their support would last? Yeah...the stadiums would still be full but people outside of England would lose interest real quick.

Yet nobody worries about the English National team running the risk of playing tedious, boring, negative football?

Of course not..because it's not boring any longer...not now that it's the 3 Lions playing that way. Now it's sublime right?

Riiiiiight...."minor uncertainties" that would have been huge issues if he wasn't able to turn the three kittens into the 3 lions. Now that he has...everything else is water under the bridge. The English no longer despise boring Italian football.


ps...i genuinely enjoy these discussions and if my comments seem heated...please don't get offended....it's just the way I argue. I mean no personal dis respect.

 

If we're playing poorly then we're playing poorly. I don't think anybody was proud of the way we played at the last WC.

Again I must reiterate here:

Stop making generalisations and assumptions based on your 'dislike' of the English.

 

What generalisation are you referring to?

It's not the "English" (I love the English...quite literally (my wife's family is English).....it's the English football mentality that drives me nuts.

If you think it's a generalisation to say that most English supporters (pre Capello) considered Italian football to negative, boring, overly tactical and even "anti football' then we'll have to agree to disagree.

The English and Italian footballing mentalities have always been at polar opposites of the spectrum.

I just find it hypocritical that an Italian footballing philosphy and mind is now good enough...when it once was not.

 

Voodoo, I at no point claimed it was fixed. Or any game for that matter. I'll admit, I watched the highlights retrospectively in the knowledge that the match was being investigated and with the events I describe above having been already pointed out to me.

So my reaction was "oh yeah...that does look a bit dodgy". Perhaps if I hadn't been looking for it, it wouldn't have seemed as iffy. But note above that I also pointed out that that I didn't know and they could well have been legitimate events.

The difference between this and the Liverpool result was that betting patterns, be it coincidental or not, fitted in with what happened during the game. Liverpool on the other hand tried to score. Indeed, they came close to scoring and made 11 attempts. Reina made 10 saves. These are not the actions of a team looking to take nothing from the game.

Chelsea then scored against the run of play and Liverpool gradually got worse from then on. These events are far more consistent with a team who just played a gruelling cup tie against a superior team that has had significantly more rest.

So I'm not talking out of my arse, regardless of what your opinion might be.

 

The generalisation that we are too 'self-centred' or too 'Anglo-Centric' to care about anything other than England, and that we are so self-involved that we will ignore any problem that football in our country or the England NT may have and simply 'sweep under the carpet'.

Apologies if that is not the angle you were aiming at, but I have seen this 'stereotype' repeated many times both on BS and on other sites which allow user comments.

About the Capello point, you must understand that, just because the press is saying it (I personally cannot remember much criticism of Capello in the press but I can't be 100% sure there wasn't) does not mean that these are the views of the English football fans. I think many people actually praised the appointment when it was made, even if the press were sceptical (again I cannot be sure that they weren't).

But I do agree with a wider point that I think you're getting at- the media in England is highly hypocritical.

 

This is true. The media will do whatever gets them money. That's why despite disrupting England's WC warm-ups (Terry, Cole) the WC host bid and whatever else they can find, rest assured that the Sun will be printing England flags all over the place within the next few weeks.

As to Voodoo's comments about "boring Italian football" being tolerable now England are using it: firstly, yes, if it's a choice between watching eye-bleedingly tedious football and winning a World Cup, we'll tend to live with it (who wouldn't?). Secondly, despite concerns about England playing that way, Capello really hasn't done that. If anything we're built around getting the best out of a dynamic attackling line-up. Thirdly, what you'll tolerate your own team doing in order to win and what you'll watch as a neutral is a completely different thing. Pre-Wenger, Arsenal were notorious for some of the most negative, unexciting tactics in the country and while their fans were happy just winning, they got few admirers elsewhere.

So maybe there's some hypocrisy in having an Italian at the helm and maybe you all think we should be embarassed about it and feel like we sold out - but if he makes England do well, we'll happily accept/live with that criticism.

 

Did I say they were giving their all? That they chased down every ball? That they gave Chelsea the fight of their lives?

No. When I said they were trying to win, I meant just that. Were they demoralised, flat, uninspired, frustrated by the events of this season? Certainly. I've said they were flat. However, there's a difference between that and what else was proposed here: that this was suspicious and that Liverpool just "laid down" to screw United.

And as it happens the midweek game is completely relevant. Look at United vs Chelsea after the first Bayern Munich game. We were visibly off the pace. Normally you use squad rotation to freshen the team up, but at the business end of the season that's not always possible. Maybe Benitez played a first XI because on the off-chance they got the results that allowed them to sneak into the CL. Perhaps he wanted to play the best players at his disposal as it was the last game of the season at Anfield.

But seeing as you've now said you don't believe it was a conspiracy by Liverpool, presumably you're suggesting that the Bologna/Catania game was a similar situation: two teams with nothing to play for, playing to an uninspiring draw? If so, that's a fair assertion.

 

Spot on. And I think most NT fans would feel the same, whether it makes them 'hypocritical' or not.

To use the Arsenal example, a lot of thier fans say that they aren't bothered about not winning trophies, as long as they are 'defiant' to the league as it were and played thier 'own' brand of football. You ask ten Arsenal fans, and nine of them will tell you that they are proud of being the most attractive team to watch in the Premier League, regardless of winning. But you can be almost certain that secretly, although they may not admit it, they'd trade thier 'attractive' football for winning trophies in a heartbeat.

 

League comparison by points | La Liga on par with the other leagues.

 

Which is exactly what I've been saying from day one. EPL it top heavy. Bottom half teams are absolute shit.

 

Name one decent outfit in the bottom end of the Italian league!!
A team that could go deep into Europe.

http://www.skysports.com/football/league/0,19540,11853,00.html

there is nothing there ,manson.
Stick to watching norwegian football.
Im sure you will regale us with stories about how great Chievo are ,but you're just setting yourself up for more mockery.

 

Nice try Duck, but I already analysed the stats. This season's Serie A standings are indeed close, but if you check the previous two seasons, their midtable was no more competitive than the EPL.

Having said that, on average the difference between the 5th and 15th positions is normally around 18-24 pts in all the top leagues.

The place where your claim has a little merit is in the relegation dogfight. The TV money that has put the EPL where it is, also creates a gap between the top two divisions. Because of that, at least one of the three promoted teams completely tanks, while at least two normally struggle. However, there is also often one that surprises.

It's also worth noting that despite the claims made by the article, it doesn't consider the fact that those "shit bottom half teams" can actually change from year-to-year. Plenty go from top 10 to fighting off relegation and vice-versa.

EPL Teams and positions for last 5 seasons:

MU: 2,1,1,1,2
CFC: 1,2,2,3,1
AFC: 4,4,3,4,3
LFC: 3,3,4,2,7
EFC: 11,6,5,5,8
AV: 16,11,6,6,6
BR: 6,10,7,15,10
PFC: 17,9,8,14,20
MC: 15,14,9,10,5
WHU: 9,15,10,9,17
TH: 5,5,11,8,4
NU: 7,13,12,18,-
MFC: 14,12,13,19,-
WA: 10,17,14,11,16
SFC: 20,-,15,16,13
BW: 8,7,16,13,14
FFC: 12,16,17,7,12
RFC: -,8,18,-,-
BFC: 18,-,19,-,9
DC: -,-,20,-,-
HC: -,-,-,17,19
WBA: 19,-,-,20,-
SC: -,-,12,11
SU: -,18,-,-,-
CA: 13,19,-,-,-
WFC: -,20,-,-,-

 

The technical ability (and by that I mean the actual ability to move the ball around properly with ones feet) in the bottom half of serie a is miles ahead of the bottom half in the epl.

You just have to watch the games to see it. I spend every Saturday watching all kinds of EPL..from the top teams to the bottom feeders. Then I do the same every Sunday, and the gap in quality is quite tangible.

Unfortunately...you'd have to watch both leagues to actually make an informed comment on the topic...which I fear most posters don't do.

 

If there was a gulf you wouldnt see a bottom half team like Fulham rip Juventus apart in a Euro game.
I remember after that game ,Dud Manson changed the subject to imports to get away from his fiction about the bottom clubs.

There are no tangible results to show lower italian teams are better.

 

Now, now, Sinner. He just told us that he watches every PL game on a Saturday, and every Seria A game on a Sunday. I personally have a life, and do not have the time to watch 20-30 hours of football every weekend, but if Voodoo does, then I'm thinking he could be the resident expert.

 

I've watched football from various leagues for my entire adult life. As a teenager with significantly more time on my hands, I'd watch everything from Serie A to Football Asia. These days, with more commitments I don't have the time to spend an entire weekend watching football. Nowadays my viewing habits are generally restricted to:

- Any Man U game that is available for me to watch
- Attending LA Galaxy home games and watching away games on TV
- The Champions League
- England, US or Mexico NTs
- The occasional other game from either La Liga, Serie A, Argentina, Mexico or Brazil
- Catching up on everything else via highlights

Earlier you claimed I wasn't being objective. With all due respect, I'm not convinced you're giving full consideration to the fact that both leagues have very different styles. Sure, Serie A is more "technique based", but it's also slower and less physical than the EPL. When you've got a bit more time on the ball and more protection from the ref, then technique is that bit more important.

Look at Ronaldo in La Liga. Towards the end of his tenure at Man U, a lot of the tricks, stepovers, dribbles, became a lot less prevalent. His reputation diving meant that the only freekicks he won were for the most blatant of fouls and mistimed challenges. He adapted by relying more on his pace, strength and ability to change direction as well as his arsenal of goal-scoring techniques. In Spain, he's certainly not back to the hot-dogging, flash-git of old, but he does utilise more of the old tricks, simply because they serve him better in that league.

That's not to say one league is better than another, just that there are mild nuances that make different approaches translate better or worse to different leagues.

I know I keep wheeling it out, but Juan Sebastien Veron - considered among the best in the world in his role at Lazio in Serie A, struggled to adapt in the Premiership.

All I'm saying is that if you're looking at technique and using that as the sole measuring stick, it's only half the story. You can't know how, for example, Bologna would fare playing in the EPL. I can't tell you how many teams have got promoted as Champions of the CCC, playing passing football and finished 20th in the EPL trying to do the same, while the shock playoff promotee stays up using an ugly, scrapping style.

 

One game..that is obviously an upset...that's why so many people are talking about it. Hardly indicative of what I was saying.

It was just my way of articulating that I actually watch both leagues. I never said I watch every game, but if you'd rather be sarcastic than actually show that you know anything about Serie A..that's fine too. It looks good on you.

So....you don't watch Serie A..but you comment on it merits?

And here it is, summed up pretty nicely. It's all a matter of preference and opinion...which is fine.

Personally, I don't use technique as the SOLE measuring stick, but if I had to rank all aspects of the game...it would be at the top....with style, and tactics following.....pace and physicality would not be anywhere close...but that's just what I like to see.

That's why I say that the bottom half of the EPL is not nearly as good as the bottom half of Serie A....because, once you get down to those teams....physicality and pace (without technique) produces very little of value.

That's why the top teams in the EPL have done so well in recent years. They're a great combination of physicality and pace...along with some of the most skilled players in the world.

Without players with skill...the game starts to look like glorified high school soccer....with bigger and stronger players.

 

Who cares if they could go deep into Europe? What would that prove? Try watching some of the shit EPL has. It's absolutely painful. They have no talent whatsoever. Small Italian teams might not be that great but they do have talent.

 

As I said previously, I could agree that some of the teams coming up from CCC can be out of their element and perhaps this is where Serie A does have an edge. However I wouldn't go as far as saying the bottom half as a whole is inferior. I think this is where the "taste" factor comes in: Blackburn may not play the prettiest football, but does make them a weaker team than Bari? Who can say? And as I posted above, last seasons 17th could be next seasons 7th in either league.

 

You really don't get it. I've said over and over and over that if you pick a random Serie A game you'll see some talent out there. If you do the same with EPL chances are you won't see any talent at all. Just people who are physically gifted. If I wanna see that I watch the Olympics. This is football. I want to see guys who can handle the ball. Your analysis of stats is a complete waste of time. Football isn't only about results and standings and head-to-heads. A 4-3 game isn't automatically more entertaining then a 0-0 draw. I would rather watch Bari play then more half of the EPL, even if they don't win alot of games and probably would get raped in Europe. Unless it's my team I'm watching I don't give a shit what the result is. I just want to be entertained. The average player from the bottom half of the EPL are not very entertaining. In fact their lack of skill is plain frustrating to watch.

 

Please Duck, the conversation just moved into an area of considered discussion. As I just pointed out, being able to play with technique for Cagliari against Catania might work and might look immaculate in terms of footballing textbook execution, but if I transplant that team into the Premiership against Blackburn, will Rovers be swept aside by their technical majesty, or will Cagliari be pressed, hustled and overcome by the power and pace of the opposition? Likewise, if I transplant Blackburn in the opposite direction, will they lose three players to red cards in the first half-hour and be systematically picked apart for the rest of the game?

And just because a person may not possess grade A dribbling technique, it doesn't mean that having moderate technique, plus strength, plus power, plus good reading of the game can't make for a very solid player. Possibly even better than one with technique alone in the right circumstances.

 

You're the one starting with stats. That article you leapt upon didn't mention talent or technique - it just said that the midtable teams (this season BTW, not always) had closer point tallies.

The rest of it's personal preference. There are plenty of people who would prefer to watch a physical, fast-paced match than a slow, tactical one and vice-versa. I personally like football for the wealth of different systems, styles, players etc. I've watched players with awesome technique and got pissed off because when it comes time to show bottle, they wilt. So it cuts both ways.

 

I've never changed anything. I've said the same thing since day one. And I totally and completely congratulated Fullham on a well deserved win.

What the ******** does results have to do with it? It's about what you prefer to watch. Some people like Pavarotti and some people like the Spice Girls. I don't think I need to explain to you what is what here.

 

What the hell? I have never brought stats into this. If a league is more even that's a positive. But I don't really care. There are only two teams where I hope for a certain result. Other then that I just want to be entertained.