Once you have made the call and the referee has accepted it, you’re going to have a chat about it? That’s the “chat” you have in pre-games about calling a penalty from the AR slot. And, what’s wrong with ignoring coaches?
I have to agree here. I called a PK on Saturday after waiving it off because AR1 went up with the flag (blocked cross where the arm was out from his angle but I thought it was close). Players were telling me to go talk with AR1. "No, he's my teammate and I trust him to make the call." Honestly, I'm not sure if I actually do, but the PK wasn't going to change the result and AR1 and I would have had zero credibility for the rest of the game if I talked with him and changed the call and only slightly more if I let the players strong arm me into a discussion that doesn't change anything.
I talked to my AR after a penalty that he called on whether to go yellow/red (he had the better angle) but he quickly moved to the corner flag and we made eye contact so there wasn’t an issue with whether or not he was calling a penalty. Pregame is essential.
I'm often a master of misinterpretation, but I took the "chuck that advice" in: ... to mean a pregame in which a CR might tell lesser experienced AR they don't know/trust, "before you signal for a PK in this match, call me over for a quick chat". IOW, chat instead of potentially waving-off a PK signal?
Unless it's crazy obvious PK, I usually confer with the AR, if anything, just to give them a show of "we're talking about this, and our decision will be good because we've covered all our bases", part of the theatrics people want to see. Conversation usually goes like this "Hey, PK, right?" "pffft, yeah." "Cool, me, too, let's talk with words for a second so they think we're discussing something important and point there and there *gesturing*." "Ok, yes." "Now, let's nod our heads in agreement" "Yes." "yes." Only takes a moment to do and it seems to settle coaches and players down 90% of the time. Whatever happened to using the "skirt" with the flag? Is that not a thing anymore?
Guidance in LOTG says: Fouls inside the penalty area When a foul is committed by a defender inside the penalty area out of the vision of the referee, especially if near to the AR’s position, the AR must first make eye contact with the referee to see where the referee is positioned and what action has been taken. If the referee has not taken any action, the AR must signal with the flag, use the electronic beep signal and then visibly move down the touchline towards the corner flag. (pg 199 of 18-19) This presumably supersedes the no-longer-published GtoP with the skirt. (Another notable difference in signals is AR signal for GK movement on a PK--the magic book says to raise the flag.)
I think you hit the nail on the head here. I have been a Grade 8 for almost four years and am just learning now how to handle screaming coaches. Newer refs need to have better training on how to handle these situations. Also, having an outgoing personality helps too. But far too few of these new referees (at least in my area) are surprisingly shy and nervous to talk to coaches.
My kids are really nervous about talking to coaches, I told them to use the phrase "Coach, you're not behaving responsibly, you need to stop, or you're going to have to leave. Do you understand?" If someone gets out of hand and won't be reasonable. I told them if someone is getting pissy to go over and calmly let them have their tizz (as long as it's not crazy) and say something like "I hear you, coach, I understand, that's not what I saw, I'll keep an eye out for XXXXXX." All while being calm and at least acting like you give a crap about what they're saying. I've given them a ton of tools to use with ornery coaches or parents. Things I've learned from watching others and reading here. If it wasn't for me coaching them, they'd be getting very little guidance and would likely have quit by this point. Really wish they'd give new referees something more than "ASK, Tell Dismiss", but I guess it all depends on who's teaching the clinic
I don't trust most of the ARs I work with to call PKs in anything except a handling situation. Not because I'm God's gift to reffing, but most of my weekend games are with kids/people I don't know. It also helps to sell the call. Same thing that is wrong with ignoring a kitchen fire. It might burn down the whole house. Too many times have I had to encourage a new ref to put their foot down on a coach who is doing nothing but incite the players. Telling folks to ignore dissent from coaches is the same as saying "Permit dissent from coaches". If Coach A can say XYZ, then Coach B might get it in his head to do the same. Then the players are joining in on it. Then we have cards for dissent. Chop the head off the body. Shut that guy up, or get him to stop screaming. At the least, address it. Don't pretend it isn't happening.
possibly sin bins in the side, to go with the cards ... I was going to post the video that has discussion about purple shirts. among other refereeing heartburn, however, it looks like it is already on this other thread Here's wishing the thread stays on topic, or it may like go supernova, again.
Hey I know the answer to this one. So the powers that be (whether fifa, PRO, etc) believe that if it’s the bad of line movement. You should own up the call and make it big with a big flag! Which works in the professional game, in the grassroots, youth and amateur. Ymmv
I follow the IFAB guidance when I have ARs of a certain level of experience. When my ARs are less experienced, I ask for the fig leaf. And if they are deer-in-headlights, I just ask them to watch ball over the line and I deal with the keeper.
And that's natural. A teenager having authority to correct/control adults goes against most everything they've experienced up to that point in their lives in terms of "who's in charge" with their parents, teachers, leaders, coaches, work managers, etc. And vice-versa too, though adults should grasp and respect the role-reversal in a youth sports environment. You're spot-on about the need for training, mentoring, and support. Dealing with personalities can be more complex than the LOTG. But, it doesn't just affect youngsters/new adults. I think we've lost a good one from our HS ranks... 35-40 yrs old, 10+ yrs experience, very athletic/fit, good referee, does adult leagues too, a fun guy to do games with... He had a rough HSGV game early last season and took the parents' comments very, very personally. It was NOT stuff like "you suck", "how the f can you call that", or "see you in the parking lot"... It was the flood of comments like "you're endangering our children", "you obviously do not care", "why are you letting them hurt each other" that made him feel very irresponsible in being out there and he never got over it - wouldn't Dual or AR on the parents' side the rest of the season. Different things affect folks in different ways.
That, to me, is a strange one. My skin has gotten much thicker as the years have gone by. And, I will not hesitate to stop a HS match, call the site administrator over and have those commentators removed. I wish for one thing as a referee. I wish for the spectators to understand that the referee has limited control over the style of play. It’s a contact sport. Unfortunately, many cannot see it that way.
Good stuff. Similar situation here - no real guidance beyond a couple of us unofficially mentoring as they start out. One local Rec league is usually pretty tame, so a couple of us have manufactured some controlled "experiences" for a few promising teenagers. Lets them face situations in-game with an adult referee present before they encounter real crap by themselves. It does get them discussing it with us (seems real to them!) and trying appropriate ways of dealing with it. Yes, it back-fired once - letting my AR's see "Ask-Tell" live in-game... Had conspired with a U12 coach (friend) to repeatedly question and complain at me... We were a bit too convincing at "Tell" and a couple of his team's parents freaked... "OMG! Coach never EVER does that! This is soooo bad!! What should we do?! He's in trouble!!"... Lol. Coach and I let the parents in on the scheme post-game. Team mom, laughing: "You're both going to hell for that stunt!!"
Our association has something similar for pre-season high school scrimmages. There are a bunch of "situations" that the coaches are in on and the instructors see how the referees handle them. Everything from a defender and a keeper changing jerseys and positions during play...to a fight...to a player overtly flirting with a referee...to an AR blowing a whistle because he was waved down on an offside call. A full day of getting in midseason form quickly. Every scrimmage had at least one situation for the referees to deal with.
You read that right. The last scrimmages/clinic I went to had at least 20 different scenarios and that was one of them. The instructors and assignor would watch, see how each scenario was handled, and a discussion would happen afterward.