Should only sovereign nations be allowed to be FIFA members? (Update: Kosovo & Gibraltar join FIFA)

Discussion in 'FIFA and Tournaments' started by shizzle787, Apr 3, 2016.

  1. r0adrunner

    r0adrunner Member

    Jun 4, 2011
    London, UK
    Club:
    AS Roma
    Country:
    Italy
    The Football Association part of FIFA's name definately means association football in English.

    I have never agreed with IFAB having 50% membership from the British Isles anyway, so that body could easily be reformed or - better still - its function transferred to the FIFA Council.
     
  2. almango

    almango Member+

    Sydney FC
    Australia
    Nov 29, 2004
    Bulli, Australia
    Club:
    Sydney FC
    Country:
    Australia
    Tahiti and New Caledonia have the same status in the Pacific, but both have been OFC members for a while, Tahiti a FIFA member for as long as I remember and New Caledonia for 15 years or so.
     
  3. Rickdog

    Rickdog Member+

    Jun 16, 2010
    Santiago, Chile
    Club:
    CD Colo Colo
    Country:
    Chile
    #28 Rickdog, May 6, 2016
    Last edited: May 6, 2016
    Nope, in english also means football association

    It refers to the bodies that govern football in each and every member countries. Also the same thing as how each football local Federation gets their names being called "FA" and not simply calling them as "Federations".

    Now, on regards to the IFAB, what you have to be thankful for, is that the british nations gave away to FIFA the 50 % of their share, as for truth, they perfectly could've kept the 100 % of it, as this sport is a trade mark of the brittish isles. No one denies that they invented it, and only after its success in their kingdoms territory, it spread to the rest of the world.
     
  4. italiancbr

    italiancbr Member

    Apr 15, 2007
    The similarities between Guadeloupe/Martinique and Alaska/Hawaii have been brought up before, but there are also significant differences. For example, Guadeloupe, Martinique, and French Guyana all have local leagues run by local branches of the French Federation. They're in a different confederation than France. They also have international teams that compete in Gold Cup qualifying. They are also full members of CONCACAF. I believe when they applied for full Concacaf membership they applied with the French federation's support with an eye towards FIFA recognition.

    The problem with this is that FIFA has continually moved the yardstick whenever it has been convenient for them. There was a time when they wanted as many members as possible as a show of strength. Around that time, all that was needed was either international recognition as an independent country or the approval of parent country for dependent territories, as this article states. If they would've applied during that time, they would almost certainly be FIFA members. But eventually FIFA started noticing the law of diminishing returns, probably when they admitted members like Anguilla and Montserrat, and admitting too many members actually made them look desperate and foolish.

    So at that point, they started changing the rules, i.e., a prospective member had to be a full member of it's confederation for so many years before applying; they had to have a regulation-sized stadium; and eventually only fully independent countries could join. From what I've read even independent countries are having a hard time joining. Even Tuvalu was denied and supposedly not because of anything soccer-related, but because they don't have any accommodations that meet FIFA standards.

    The reason to want to join FIFA can be seen by the payouts that members receive each year. I'm sure Guadeloupe, Martinique, and French Guiana would like there own money as full members rather than begging the French federation for help. They're already more competitive in Concacaf than most of the other Caribbean countries. It's silly to think that this will somehow affect the political situation. Corsica is more likely to leave France than these Caribbean territories. It's like Spain worrying about Gibraltar's application when they should be more worried of Catalonia becoming independent.
     
    guignol repped this.
  5. babaorum

    babaorum Member+

    Aug 20, 2005
    Marseille
    Country:
    France
    Tahiti and New Caledonia have a different status from Guadeloupe and Martinique as they're not 'overseas departments' but 'overseas territories'. To sum up, they enjoy a broad political autonomy, especially in New Caledonia where a referendum will take place by 2018 to determine whether they achieve independence or not.
     
    Nico Limmat and almango repped this.
  6. Nico Limmat

    Nico Limmat Moderator
    Staff Member

    Oct 24, 1999
    Dubai, UAE
    Club:
    Grasshopper Club Zürich
    Country:
    Switzerland
    Kosovo and Gibraltar have been added as FIFA members 210 and 211 today.

    I guess Russia will soon bring applications to the table for Abkhazia, South Ossetia and Crimea.

    How many full confederation members don't have FIFA membership yet?

    [EDIT] It seems only CONCACAF has six such full members left:

    1. Bonaire
    2. French Guiana
    3. Guadeloupe
    4. Martinique
    5. Saint-Martin
    6. Sint Maarten

    Can we either make them FIFA members or strip their CONCACAF membership?
     
  7. dinamo_zagreb

    dinamo_zagreb Member+

    Jun 27, 2010
    San Jose, CA / Zagreb, Croatia
    Club:
    --other--
    Country:
    Croatia
    There are Kiribati, Tuvalu and Niue of Oceania, Reunion and Zanzibar of Africa, Northern Mariana of Asia. 12 total (along with 6 CONCACAF's).

    I'd give all of those FIFA membership. I don't understand how one can be affiliated with continental confederation, but can't with FIFA. Criteria should be the same for both continental and world organizations.
     
  8. r0adrunner

    r0adrunner Member

    Jun 4, 2011
    London, UK
    Club:
    AS Roma
    Country:
    Italy
    Absolutely, otherwise you have the absurdity of - until today - Gibraltar being able to participate in the EC but not the WC.
     
  9. Tom Ado

    Tom Ado Member

    Jun 25, 2015
    I've always wondered why Monaco never applied for UEFA or FIFA membership despite their sovereign/UN status. I'd grant every current full/associate member of a confederation FIFA status too if I had a say.
     
  10. Nico Limmat

    Nico Limmat Moderator
    Staff Member

    Oct 24, 1999
    Dubai, UAE
    Club:
    Grasshopper Club Zürich
    Country:
    Switzerland
    You are listing associate members as well. I am focusing on full members.

    Now somebody explain to me the difference in detail. :D
    In order to keep things simple for AS Monaco? (a full member of the French FA)
     
  11. Nico Limmat

    Nico Limmat Moderator
    Staff Member

    Oct 24, 1999
    Dubai, UAE
    Club:
    Grasshopper Club Zürich
    Country:
    Switzerland
    I have no problem with Kosovo and Gibraltar getting their FIFA membership but at the same time I wonder if national politics will be rearing their head at FIFA Congress more and more going forward. Neither, Kosovo or Gibraltar, are UN member states (of course neither was my very own Switzerland until 2002). Serbia have stated they will take Kosovo's UEFA/FIFA admission all the way to the CAS.

    So where do we go from here? Do we insist on a territory definition or should it just be a popularity contest in Congress. The likes of Jersey (who are planning to apply) will get through while Crimea won't?

    Here's the Russian POV:
    http://futbolgrad.com/russia-reacts-kosovos-uefa-membership/
     
  12. shizzle787

    shizzle787 Member

    Apr 27, 2015
    Connecticut
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    Country:
    United States
    Switzerland, however, weren't a UN state because they didn't want to be, not because they wouldn't be recognized by other countries.
     
  13. Metropolitan

    Metropolitan Member

    Sep 5, 2005
    Paris
    Club:
    Paris Saint Germain FC
    Country:
    France
    From what I've understood, mostly because the French Caribbeans like things as they are. Many players from the French Caribbeans have been part of the French national team, hence why there is actually a great support for Les Bleus in the islands. They know that if they would be full FIFA members, they would have no chance.

    With their affiliation in CONCACAF, they have the best of both worlds. They can participate to the Gold Cup and Caribbean Cup locally and still have the "bigger" team to support during World Cups and Euros. Remember that any active players in Guadeloupe, Martinique or French Guiana selections remain eligible to the French national team at any time.

    Precisely. Monaco has always feared that if it had its own FA, it would put in question the participation of AS Monaco in the French league, ruled by another FA.

    Especially that Monaco has opponents in France considering that its lower tax rates make the club benefitting from an unfair advantage compared to others.
     
  14. Nico Limmat

    Nico Limmat Moderator
    Staff Member

    Oct 24, 1999
    Dubai, UAE
    Club:
    Grasshopper Club Zürich
    Country:
    Switzerland
    #39 Nico Limmat, May 16, 2016
    Last edited: May 16, 2016
    Update from Jersey's UEFA/FIFA application:
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/football...e-high-hopes-of-joining-fifas-exclusive-club/
    So UEFA is trying to close the door behind Gibraltar for applications that don't pass the 'nation smell test' (which, according to the Kosovo decision, means a majority recognition from European member states). Will it hold up in front of CAS?
    Indeed. Just pointing out a gap in having the UN as the main point of reference.
    Do you know if these six CONCACAF members have actually tried to apply to FIFA? I get their motivation but this two-track approach shouldn't be allowed. Either full FIFA membership is the endgame or you don't get to be part of organised football.

    I would really like to see a common stance at the confederation and FIFA level.
     
  15. Makandal

    Makandal Member

    Apr 21, 2007
    Cambridge, MA (USA)
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Country:
    Haiti
    No they don't have the same status. Their status with France is closer to Puerto-Rico/USA. Even so it is more autonomous than Puerto Rico. Also Guadeloupe & Martinique relationship with France is more dependent than that of Hawaii/Alaska to USA on so many level including. Asking Guadeloupe to join FIFA would be equivalent to asking Seine Saint Denis or Bouches-du-Rhône to join FIFA. They do not have FAs of their own. Their FA is the French FA. Unlike Tahiti & New Caledonie.

    Some themes are evident here:
    It is obvious that to be a member of FIFA a "territory" has to have an independent FA. So that should easily eliminate any "territories" we know do not have its own FA. Also it is obvious that the confederations have their own rules and requirements that are different from FIFA's.
     
  16. italiancbr

    italiancbr Member

    Apr 15, 2007

    The problem is that territories like Anguilla and Montserrat didn't have their own FAs either prior to joining FIFA. But their clubs weren't part of the English league system so they were viewed as self-contained footballing territories. From a sporting standpoint, that's the same designation that Guadeloupe, Martinique, and French Guiana have. Their clubs don't play in the French system like other French departments such as Corsica do. They also belong to a confederation outside of UEFA.

    It seems the case of Martinique, Guadeloupe, and French Guiana is not a political matter but a sporting matter. France has allowed them to become members of other sporting federations such as volleyball . The issue is that they were producing enough soccer talent in the past that the French Football Federation didn't want to lose any potential talent. But it seems like with the rise of French-African talent on the French roster, they have less of a need for those Caribbean departments, which is why there was more of a willingness from the FFF to allow them to become full CONCACAF members with an eye towards FIFA membership before all the arrests in the region halted any more action. I'm sure they'd like the full payouts that FIFA members receive but it may never happen for them which is unfortunate because with proper funding and organization all three could become major players within CONCACAF. And the region is desperate for stronger competition.
     
  17. Makandal

    Makandal Member

    Apr 21, 2007
    Cambridge, MA (USA)
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Country:
    Haiti
    Unfortunately, you are wrong about those 2 territories not having FAs. Here is the reason why: The government of a country does not apply to become member of FIFA. Football associations of individual countries/territories apply to become members of FIFA. The very sentence "Country X has become member of FIFA when they didn't have their own FA" is incorrect for the simple reason that a membership is given to the FA of the country or territory. So Montserrat's FA and Anguilla's FA both decided to apply for FIFA membership and got accepted by FIFA. Remember FIFA is an international associations overseeing the FAs around the world (not countries, not territories). As of now Guadeloupe and Martinique are without their own FAs and as regional leagues their clubs are eligible to play in the french system. They must be near the bottom of the pyramid among the other regional localized amateur leagues all over France.



    As I pointed above, to talk about membership of FIFA or any other sport organisation for that matter, it is important to think of the associations governing the sport, not the country's government. Who know what the requirements to be members of FIVB are. As for the FFF (French FA) they have never supported a FIFA membership from the departements in question. In fact as of right now, they explicitly forbid it in their governing rules. There are still many players playing in mainland France from Guadeloupe, Martinique. In fact most of them with any goal to become professionals move to play their football in France (usually divisions below Ligue 1).
     
    song219 repped this.
  18. deejay

    deejay Member+

    Feb 14, 2000
    Tarpon Springs, FL
    Club:
    Jorge Wilstermann
    Country:
    Bolivia
    The true issue here is that these people want to play soccer. Making Gibraltar, Guadalupe or such ineligible for FIFA membership means cutting them off from ever participating in the international stage. Those dependent populations or departments are simply too far from their leagues for competition to be economically feasible. So no dream of working up the ladder for these guys.

    The problem is, of course, why we are giving these associations full voting memberships?

    Frankly, I thought that having them be members at the confederation only was an ideal solution. Oh well.
     
  19. italiancbr

    italiancbr Member

    Apr 15, 2007
    I doubt very much that as British Overseas Territories they had independent FAs before being accepted into CONCACAF and FIFA; do you have an article supporting that claim? More then likely they had regional authority like the Caribbean territories do. Either way as this FIFA article from 2001 states, there is no mention of independent FAs, only that a parent country of a dependency needs to give approval to apply for FIFA membership. Once approval is given then the regional FA rep would become the independent FA of that territory. It also states that a country/territory needed to have been a full member of it's local confederation for two years before applying to FIFA, which was the real stumbling block for the French Caribbean territories because they were only associate members of CONCACAF at that time. Ironically, FIFA standards were pretty loose in the 90's so Anguilla and Monsterrat didn't even need to follow that step, both becoming members of CONCACAF and FIFA in 1996. So FIFA has lowered and raised the bar depending on what's most convenient at the time.

    Regardless of the sporting federation, if it's an international body, then any dependency would need to have approval from it's parent country otherwise what credibility would it have? Now certain rules might be different from one international sports federation to another such as having an established league or being a part of the local confederation for a certain number of years or having a suitable number of facilities, etc., but do you know of any international sports federation that has given membership to Hawaii for example? And so why did France allow Martinique and Guadeloupe to apply for FIVB (volleyball) membership but not allow them to apply for FIFA membership, which would allow them to receive much more financial assistance and training? And as this article states, it's not clear how much support the FFF has given them recently but allowing them to become full CONCACAF members was seen as a step towards FIFA membership.
     
  20. Nico Limmat

    Nico Limmat Moderator
    Staff Member

    Oct 24, 1999
    Dubai, UAE
    Club:
    Grasshopper Club Zürich
    Country:
    Switzerland
  21. Chicago76

    Chicago76 Member+

    Jun 9, 2002
    Here you go:

    http://www.isasurf.org/wp-content/results/wsg_2009/WSG2009_Teams.pdf

    Granted, it was the first competition of this format and they haven't competed separately since, but I get a sense from reading the recaps that the competition has lost legitimacy from the initial.
     
  22. Nico Limmat

    Nico Limmat Moderator
    Staff Member

    Oct 24, 1999
    Dubai, UAE
    Club:
    Grasshopper Club Zürich
    Country:
    Switzerland
    Kosovo played its first official game last night:

     
  23. shizzle787

    shizzle787 Member

    Apr 27, 2015
    Connecticut
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    Country:
    United States
    Apparently, now Jersey wants to become the 56th member of UEFA.
     
  24. zaqualung

    zaqualung Member

    Jun 17, 2015
    San Francisco
    Club:
    Liverpool FC

    In other words - the system of authorization works just fine.....

    The whole argument is moot.

    *yawn*
     
  25. zaqualung

    zaqualung Member

    Jun 17, 2015
    San Francisco
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Personally, I say the more the merrier.
     

Share This Page